Decline and Fall of the American Woman

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

I cannot be held responsible for a man or womans thoughts

if a man chooses to have impure thoughts merely because I am showing skin that is HIS problem!

I am a practising catholic but I am a realist and I am not going to run around in a burka to save men from their own imperfections! I don’t have impure thoughts when I see a man in speedos!

A few thoughts to share with you…

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Of course you are right that you cannot be held accountable for another person, whether it be their thoughts or actions. BUT you do have to take responsibilty for YOUR actions.

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** Wearing tempting clothing is a deliberate action by you (for whatever reason) and you ARE responsible for being a “near occassion of sin” to your brothers in Christ.**

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Men are visual creatures (designed that way by God). They are responsible for not entertaining lustful thoughts, but have no control over their initial reaction. YOU are the cause of that initial reaction.

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Look at it this way… if you had a friend or family member who was a recovering alcoholic, would you offer them a drink or drink in front of them? Most people I know would be sensitive to their personal struggle and not do anything that would be considered tempting. That is just simple human decency.

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**Same goes for other kinds of temptations. You are not responsible for their personal battles, but as their sister in Christ, you have a choice as to whether you will be helpful or harmful in their war against impurity.

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I am sure that you, as a mere mortal, have struggles and imperfections. Reflect on them and ask yourself how you would like your fellow human beings to help you fight your temptations.

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** Of course you don’t fall into lust when you see a man in a Speedo, because those are just nasty, lol. Plus, *most *women are not visual like men are. **

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**Spend a litle time in prayer and introspection and ask yourself what Jesus would expect of you. Would you wear revealing clothing to meet Him? Why or why not? **

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**And my final point is that you don’t have to wear a burka to be modest. Just don’t advertise the product if you aren’t willing to sell it. It’s not fair to the customers **

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Malia

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[jman507]

Sorry, that went right over my head, who is your brother?

I suppose I could say, I have three brothers and possibly even my sister. I suppose I could also say, who is not my brother or sister?

 

[litllulu]

He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.

I suppose I could say, I have three brothers and possibly even my sister. I suppose I could also say, who is not my brother or sister?

Sorry brother, I am now more confused! haha

 

[leonie]

I’d like to know where all the dads are!!

My husband would never allow his daughters to dress provocatively. He would never allow his daughters to call boys. He doesn’t allow provocative movies or music or magazines in the house.

Our daughters will never be allowed to buy Cosmo, or Glamour or Seventeen or even Oprah’s sleazy magazine.

where was Britney Spear’s dad when she was been exploited as a teen? What about her husband?

IMO, even though the article is about women lowering their standards–I think it started with absent or too lenient fathers.

 

[jman507]

If you can take advantage of what feminism has helped brought forth, you ought to. One problem with these threads is that they tend to exaggerate points that doesn’t quite take in consideration the whole, while Catholism tends to keep a lot of things in balance. There is a lot of good of feminism, there is some not so good. What’s new? The past excesses has let to the past revolution. That lead to more but different excess, which lead to today’s revolution. Which lead’s to more excess that leads to tomarrow’s revolution. So if you take advantage, far from a bad thing, you probably should take advantage of what is suited to you. Although my advice would be, don’t get too wrapped up in career, many a women have ‘broke the glass ceiling’ and I’m sure they’ll realize the quote upon contemplation of death, “I wished I didn’t spend so much time in the office.”

Do not forget that those blessed with a high position are also given a higher call to help. A paradox to Christianity is that the master is the servent.

 

[jman507]

I’d like to know where all the dads are!!

My husband would never allow his daughters to dress provocatively. He would never allow his daughters to call boys. He doesn’t allow provocative movies or music or magazines in the house.

Our daughters will never be allowed to buy Cosmo, or Glamour or Seventeen or even Oprah’s sleazy magazine.

where was Britney Spear’s dad when she was been exploited as a teen? What about her husband?

IMO, even though the article is about women lowering their standards–I think it started with absent or too lenient fathers.

Another thing along the lines of the article I’m sure. You can have sex, without being married. If married life get’s a bit too much, divorce. Sex with no consequence, what man wouldn’t like that. Yeah, careful what you wish for.

 

[jman507]

Sorry brother, I am now more confused! haha

As a Christian one has to be concerned about all. Granted what that means action-wise, you can only do what you can, and some you might be more responsible for than another. Who knows what God will present to you?

If you remember the greatest commandments, one of them was to care for your neighbor.

Oh and to bunnynessuk, good for you to do well for yourself. I really don’t mean any ill-will. And I think it’s always a valid point to bring out when it comes to feminism, it’s not like it is a pure evil movement that some tend to end up inferring, if they mean to or not. There are always good points and bad points, and some points that need some responsibility to go along with them. Don’t worry about getting yourself into a bit of hot water, it can help keep you clean. Always use the chance to refine your arguements.

 

[blessedtoo]

September, I will be earning far more money that my partner (pre-feminism this would not have been possible), through feminism the glass ceiling is falling I can now earn as much as a man in the same position

You are young so I understand that you are just regurgitating the feminist party line here. However, come back and talk to us when you are 30, after you have worked for ten years and earned all your money but want to now have children and stay home to raise them.

I do not need a chaperone to go out, I am free to date whom I choose, I can drive, **choose not to cook or clean and not be expected to be a baby machine I am now able to work and live my own life I can be a mother and be a capable member of the work force **- this is what feminism is.

Wow! What great achievements the feminists have made for women everywhere! As a result, most women in their 20’s today not only won’t cook, but don’t even know how. Who feeds their families? McDonalds? “Baby making machine” is directly lifted from the feminist manifestos of the 70’s and you, my friend, have been brainwashed. If you truly view yourself in this way, then you clearly have no understanding of the immense gift you have been given by God. We were chosen by Him to co-operate in bringing forth His new creations. And the feminists refer to this as mechanized “baby-making”. That’s pathetic.

Don’t accept the rhetoric so willingly, my young friend. I don’t want to derail this thread, but I urge you to check out this link for a thorough discussion on the topic of feminism.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132204&highlight=feminism
One of the best questions posed by a man on this forum about feminism came from this thread. A woman stated that she didn’t “need” a man to protect her in life, that she was capable of doing that on her own. And he replied:

Women should be protected not because they can’t protect themselves, but because they shouldn’t have to protect themselves. What are men for, if not that? We need something to protect; why do you try to break our being, just so you can feel strong?

 

[bunnynessuk]

I actually hope to have children one day - god willing ( i am thwarted with gynae problems and at 20 my guess is its not a good sign! - but hey I may adopt!) And when/if I have children I will be able to work and raise a family - like my mother has done and she did a damn good job (she took on me and my brother at 7,9 after we had been in care due to the death of my natural mother) Working and motherhood CAN go together and if I am lucky enough to have chilren (either naturally or through adoption i will too). I found you to be incredibly patronising you may well be a stay at home and I am pleased that you were able to make that choice but I will be allowed to make mine I may well be twenty but i have my life planned both emotionally (wedding, kids etc) and financially. The feminist movement (the one that meant i could vote, work etc) has ensured that I can make decisions about my future. I will never be dependant on anyone not my parents (who i care for) or my partner (whom i also care for) because thanks be to god I do not live in a society where I need to be - nuns are wonderful women who live in gods grace and they do not rely on any man but Jesus and neither will I because I live in a world where i can dress as i choose, work as i choose and live my live as i choose so long as i abide by the laws society puts in place and abide by the laws god has put in place. I do not need protecting by any man and I wouldnt want to put a man in a position where he needed to protect me aside from jesus - Jesus is and will always be the only man a woman can truly put her faith and trust in.

 

[bunnynessuk]

And just on another note not all working women feed thier kids at maccy d’s! My mother works 40+ hours a week as a headteacher and she never once put a maccys infront of us for tea! Men can cook too you know - some of them even enjoy it!

God did not say that a womans role was to cook and clean I believe we are meant to look after any children gods grace decides to give us and not all of us will be lucky enough to experience it. your view of feminism is not one which reflects the true ideals of it and merely the unfortunate way in which some women have decided to act using the word feminism!

 

[Black_Jaque]

I’d like to know where all the dads are!!

Gone. The mothers filed for divorce, and got custody of the children. Dads are maybe around on a few of the weekends.

 

[jc-servant]

Gone. The mothers filed for divorce, and got custody of the children. Dads are maybe around on a few of the weekends.

Or the men just got someone pregnant and did not marry the mother or stick around in the first place because our society says that is OK. Or perhaps the father traded their faithful wife and kids in on a new sportier model (because women are just a decorative accessory to some men) and abandoned their orginal family obligations. It can cut both ways.

 

[Black_Jaque]

I cannot be held responsible for a man or womans thoughts I can only be held responsible and I wear short skirts on occasions when I go out because I happen to like fashion and I am a 20 year old woman I can wear what so ever I choose and I like to wear clothes which make me look pretty obviously I stick to the rule of vogue which is the rather crude (tts or are not both) (sorry for the language!) but I wear what I choose, I am an engaged woman and I am a student and no I will not be responsible for anyone elses thoughts. When/If I have children (I have gynae issues) I will ensure that they are brought up with good morals and that they are taught well but I cannot be held responsible for their thoughts - you don’t blame the parents or family of a person who kills you blame the person, you don;t blame the victim of rape you blame the attacker and similarly if a man chooses to have impure thoughts merely because I am showing skin that is HIS problem!

OK. So never mind the responsibility of the impure thoughts of men. How about making it a little bit easier for other men to defend your honor?

I one time made a remark to some colleagues that I thought it was pretty lousy that a product manufacturer stooped to using sexy women to sell their product. The product had absolutely nothing to do with sex at all! They just used photos of hot-babes posing with their product line. Boy did I get the flames from my colleagues! They defended their right to drool and lust over women, they accused me of being a prude, they puffed themselves up over how they can look without lusting (in reality they’re likely desensitized from more extreme exposures). I was the bad-guy. And all because I stood up and spoke out against the practice of exploiting a woman’s sexuality to sell products to men.

Now I read posts like this one above, and I think, who am I trying to defend?

Why should I take this kind of ****, when this is the attitude of so many women?

If women can dress however they mighty well please, then I’m not going to stand against men who openly lust over them. And I’m not so sure I would risk my life and limb to save any such woman who was in a dire situation either.

 

[JimG]

Another thing along the lines of the article I’m sure. You can have sex, without being married. If married life get’s a bit too much, divorce. Sex with no consequence, what man wouldn’t like that. Yeah, careful what you wish for.

Sex without consequences is the general idea that has been promoted. However, the fact is, that sex ALWAYS has consequences. And in the absence of marriage, the adverse consequences generally fall upon women. One result has been the feminization of poverty.

 

[JimG]

Nobody has yet commented on this part of the linked article:

Our society needs healing. If the sexual exploitation does not end, many more girls will grow up despising themselves. Here are some initial steps for society to start respecting women again:

• Get rid of cheerleading. Women shouldn’t jump up and down in their underwear while the guys score a touchdown.

Now, that’s only one of his proposed solutions. But, get rid of cheerleading?
Anyone here in favor of that?

 

[LSK]

Remember, Blaque Jaque (and other virtuous, heroic men) there are Catholic women who recognize feminism - TRUE feminism- to be about loving God and being regarded by Our Creator as having equal dignity to a male creature. We chose not to wear low cut tops or short skirts freely - because we wish to not be a ‘near occasion of sin’ to other members of the Body of Christ.

If, however, I discover that some man has develped lustful thoughts for me simply because I am female then I do not take responsibility for his sin.

This is what can be very confusing for women…I have been told (in the past, obviously) that I was ‘hot’ when I was wearing a modest skirt and top and conducting myself as a lady. Somewhere these men got the message - and I believe this is the crux of the Rabbi’s argument - that speaking to me that way was welcomed…it meant I was attractive and everyone knows that’s the most important thing to a woman…how do they know? Look around…advertising alone tells us that we are truly valued if we have long legs, the right hair color, big pouty lips and wear fake angel wings while strutting around in our underwear…

Let’s face it, everyone…we are all confused by these goofy messages. And men who treat women with respect and dignity are often made to feel less than masculine, while women who wish to be treated that way are made to feel frigid and cold.

The question becomes - how do we, as Catholics, fight this kind of culture?

 

[JimG]

This is what can be very confusing for women…I have been told (in the past, obviously) that I was ‘hot’ when I was wearing a modest skirt and top and conducting myself as a lady.

Ah well, women are just naturally ‘hot!’ But that’s no reason they shouldn’t be treated with respect!

 

[Black_Jaque]

If, however, I discover that some man has develped lustful thoughts for me simply because I am female then I do not take responsibility for his sin.

If you select your attire specifically to be modest, then you have no guilt if another man looks lustfully at you. I didn’t copy any of you’re posts to mine. It was a particular attitude that I was addressing.

This is what can be very confusing for women…I have been told (in the past, obviously) that I was ‘hot’ when I was wearing a modest skirt and top and conducting myself as a lady.

Men are not natural masters of the spoken word like women can be. Men don’t distinguish between red, magenta, scarlet, burgundy or ??? they’re all just some shade of red. In the same way we don’t always chose the right word when we wish to compliment a woman. It’s possible that what the guy meant when they told you they thought you were “hot” was simply that you looked good. You could have used that as a conversation starter, by sincerely asking what they meant.

that speaking to me that way was welcomed

It is generally accepted that women enjoy being complimented on their looks. It’s a matter of just training men how to properly go about doing this. I think women are also taught to enjoy the power trip that can be had by making grown men drool and act like idiots by simply “flaunting it”.

The question becomes - how do we, as Catholics, fight this kind of culture?

I guess I just do it by telling my little story. If women can’t swallow the idea of dressing modestly so that vulgar men won’t sin. Perhaps they can dress modestly so that regular guys won’t lambasted for defending the honor of women’s bodies.

I didn’t particularly enjoy the flaming I got on account of that advertizment. I took it for the sake of some women who has never met me. It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Perhaps, if women began to understand that when they dress that way they cause innocent men to suffer. It’s not just for the sake of the vulgar men. Just imagine you dressing that way, then your father has to come out and pull a bunch of men away from you, and in the process your father get’s injured. Yes the men were acting vulgar. But your poor dad is now in the hospital because you sent the wrong message to vulgar men.

 

[LSK]

Well, I THANK you for having the strength of character to speak out…I know that sometimes it feels as though we are all alone in our desires to live lives of chastity, fidelity and charity…well, you are NOT alone…I’m with you and if anyone flames you like that again you just tell them that your ‘spiritual auntie’ in Modesto is going pray right at 'em… …

 

[chevalier]

Nobody has yet commented on this part of the linked article:

Now, that’s only one of his proposed solutions. But, get rid of cheerleading?
Anyone here in favor of that?

Yes and totally so. Cheerleaders are meant to induce adrenaline into the players’ blood by means of showing their underwear in their jumps. Sexual stimulation, anyone?