Decline gift etiquette

[EasterJoy]

I think that all is fair enough, though it wouldn’t hurt to find out if this is a misunderstanding about who actually bought the gift that the man gave.

Well…that’s really his business. It’s not really nice to ask someone who bought you a gift if he had someone else pick it out for you, either–that is part of the rub!

It is enough to say, “what a nice gift, but based on the formality that ought to be part of our (professional) relationship, considering I am a younger woman working under the authority of an older man, I’m going to have to turn it down. Thank you for the thought, though. Really, your appreciation is the best gift.”

 

[EasterJoy]

Dh is now completely aware of this situation and is also very saddened by it. I was able to temper his reaction so that he understands I’ve been trying to keep him and myself from jumping to conclusions while working on taking calculated steps.

I’ve spoken to her and she has reassured us there have been no instances of impropriety on any one’s part.

She’s not able to drive yet and he’s in his thirties.

The gift was given to my youngest daughter, in my presence, because I was preoccupied at the moment, with a message that it be given to sibling He left before I was available to speak to him.

It’s hard to decipher as I feel if there was mal intent involved he probably wouldn’t have been so blatant to do it in my presence.

Of course, there are people who also try to get in good with the parents, so that’s something we also understand. We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Peace.

+JMJ+

He’s also young enough that he may not think of himself as “a man in authority.” He’s just one of the folks.

Our contemporary thought tries to pretend that there is no difference between the high and the low and sometimes want to pretend that a professional concern is one big happy family, but that isn’t true. Many people in their 30s have no concept of “one does not.” They try to go by emotions, by a “how would it feel if someone did that to you” yardstick. That yardstick doesn’t take into account that we do not live in a simple world full of safe people who mean well. We don’t live in a world of people who can all be taken at our perception of their face value. We don’t live in a world where people who intend to give things with no strings attached don’t start to imagine they’ve run up a good ledger later on. We don’t even live in a world where all 30 year olds know what a 16 year old might read into a gift of clothing, or one in which a 16 year old can read the messages she needs to read when it really is for her own good.

Humans are still humans, not angels. Our emotions are not always a good guide to the pitfalls of our efforts to do the right thing. They aren’t always fair to other people, giving the charming more room to roam than they ought to have and the clumsy more penalties than they deserve. That’s why we have these little rules. The best thing to do is to apply them graciously, but do not be tempted not to apply them. Oh, how I wish the unfortunate things I’ve learned between the ages of 16 and 50 about human nature! These little rules also help us not to dwell on those things too much without a great deal of peril.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Well…that’s really his business. It’s not really nice to ask someone who bought you a gift if he had someone else pick it out for you, either–that is part of the rub!

It is enough to say, “what a nice gift, but based on the formality that ought to be part of our (professional) relationship, considering I am a younger woman working under the authority of an older man, I’m going to have to turn it down. Thank you for the thought, though. Really, your appreciation is the best gift.”

I’ll agree, unless—since the work she did benefitted everyone (maybe like shoveling snow off of a church walkway, for example) the man was merely giving a gift bought by a church secretary (in my example) at his request to choose a useful thank you gift for the girl. We don’t really know the whole story, and neither does the OP at this point.

 

[pensmama87]

It’s really kind that you want to give the giver the benefit of the doubt, AbideWithMe, but regardless of how this item came to be the gift he needs to understand that it’s inappropriate. Informing him of that will save him a world of trouble in the future if it was innocently meant.

(And if it wasn’t, he knows he won’t get past these parents easily.)

 

[AbideWithMe]

It’s really kind that you want to give the giver the benefit of the doubt, AbideWithMe, but regardless of how this item came to be the gift he needs to understand that it’s inappropriate. Informing him of that will save him a world of trouble in the future if it was innocently meant.

(And if it wasn’t, he knows he won’t get past these parents easily.)

Thanks for the compliment. I’m not trying to be kind, simply fair, in pointing out how much we don’t know about the situation. If, as in my scenario example, a secretary bought the clothes, and he trusted her judgment (because plenty of men rely on women to be more savvy about gift-buying than they feel themselves to be), then he may not have even known what was in the box or bag. Yes, if he’s innocent he should still somehow be informed that this gift caused concern. However, if, being innocent, it is learned that this was a community thank you gift/payment bought by a female then I don’t see that the type of item itself was inappropriate; it’s more that he should have waited to speak with the mom herself rather than the youngest daughter.

I’m just saying to slow down before coming to conclusions. I can see a number of scenarios that would fit our limited information, as well as the parents’ current limit of information.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Dh is now completely aware of this situation and is also very saddened by it. I was able to temper his reaction so that he understands I’ve been trying to keep him and myself from jumping to conclusions while working on taking calculated steps.

I’ve spoken to her and she has reassured us there have been no instances of impropriety on any one’s part.

She’s not able to drive yet and he’s in his thirties.

The gift was given to my youngest daughter, in my presence, because I was preoccupied at the moment, with a message that it be given to sibling He left before I was available to speak to him.

It’s hard to decipher as I feel if there was mal intent involved he probably wouldn’t have been so blatant to do it in my presence.

Of course, there are people who also try to get in good with the parents, so that’s something we also understand. We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Peace.

+JMJ+

Dh is now completely aware of this situation and is also very saddened by it. I was able to temper his reaction so that he understands I’ve been trying to keep him and myself from jumping to conclusions while working on taking calculated steps.

Good, he should have known immediately and you should take steps to address this with your daughter as well. It sounds like you guys are going to handle this well now.

I’ve spoken to her and she has reassured us there have been no instances of impropriety on any one’s part.

This information is almost worthless. But you can use it to teach her about gifts, and men and women. But she is not able to make the distinction now if there have been past inappropriate actions this is why it is important you use this as a teaching tool.

It’s hard to decipher as I feel if there was mal intent involved he probably wouldn’t have been so blatant to do it in my presence.

Though you are on the right track now this sentence shows a naive outlook that you should try to remedy. I am not trying to belittle you but only cause you to change the way you are assessing the situation. You need to do this for your daughter. Dismissing it because why would he do it in front of the parents is exactly what predators count on and why they do it. They blur one boundary so that later they can blur others. They count on the idea that if they do things in front of you, you will not be suspicious. Even as young men we are taught this when pursuing a girl. Give her flowers in front of her dad or mom… etc…
I would really suggest for you to call up your diocese and ask when the next safe environment class is and take it. Even if this has nothing to do with the Church, there is valuable info for you in that class. If not, take a self defense class or a community safety class in your town. Since you probably are not wired to think like this, you might want to defer to your husband in this matter. Yes, dad might blow it out of proportion and embarrass you or your child. My wife has turned red a few times I have acted as “protector” of my kids and wife that is part of the job.

She’s not able to drive yet and he’s in his thirties.

Yes, this is indeed alarming

We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Dont misunderstand me. I am not advocating getting pitchforks out and yelling child molester from the town bell tower. I actually want to point out that it is unlikely there is anything too dangerous here. But there are some flags and there are some concerning parts of your own thinking in your posts. That last line about being worried about raising flags is telling. Dont be. Who cares. But don’t go off half cocked either. Just have your husband return the gift and tell him that it is inappropriate and you cannot accept it. Nothing else has to be done EXCEPT that the daughter cannot be alone with this man in a room ever. EVER. And you should be extra watchful. No need to tell the man why, or accuse him of anything at all. No need to cause a public outcry either. Just make sure your minor child is protected…That is not really that hard no matter what vague situation you have…
No thirty year old man would do this in front of me at all. And if it did happen, it would be shut down quickly and nicely but most decisively.
Your husband, not you, needs to do this as it will be taken more seriously and there will be almost no chance of a predator (even though that is probably not the case) pursuing a girl who’s father has taken a position.
You also owe your husband a big apology. My wife would be worried how I would react and that would be her first clue that she SHOULD tell me.

 

[Xantippe]

Dh is now completely aware of this situation and is also very saddened by it. I was able to temper his reaction so that he understands I’ve been trying to keep him and myself from jumping to conclusions while working on taking calculated steps.

I’ve spoken to her and she has reassured us there have been no instances of impropriety on any one’s part.

She’s not able to drive yet and he’s in his thirties.

The gift was given to my youngest daughter, in my presence, because I was preoccupied at the moment, with a message that it be given to sibling He left before I was available to speak to him.

It’s hard to decipher as I feel if there was mal intent involved he probably wouldn’t have been so blatant to do it in my presence.

Of course, there are people who also try to get in good with the parents, so that’s something we also understand. We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Peace.

+JMJ+

I’m glad your husband knows and isn’t doing anything rash. This way you can both keep your eyes open from now on.

 

[Xantippe]

Did I miss some part of the thread where the op said her daughter is ever alone one-on-one with this man??? I don’t know if she did or not. Just as I believe a gift-giver may simply give to express thanks and that designer clothes without tags aren’t necessarily expensive, I also believe that a girl shouldn’t be alone with a man who isn’t a trusted relative. Gift or no gift, I wouldn’t do that!

op-
I’m glad you told your husband. And I do think you should follow your mother’s intuition if you suspect something. If you want her to withdraw from whatever organization or activity this was, then do it without worrying about what other people think.

I don’t personally see that this was necessarily an expensive gift, especially since they came without tags. The clothes may not have cost him any more than a $5 gift card for a coffee. Plus, lots of children’s activities give things like t-shirts, so if there is some kind of etiquette rule not to give other people’s children clothing, then that etiquette is violated often with free t-shirts from activity directors. I don’t know. I’m not there so trust your gut.

Yeah–I feel like t-shirts are an exception to the “no clothing” rule because they are given away with wild abandon nowadays.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks for the compliment. I’m not trying to be kind, simply fair, in pointing out how much we don’t know about the situation. If, as in my scenario example, a secretary bought the clothes, and he trusted her judgment (because plenty of men rely on women to be more savvy about gift-buying than they feel themselves to be), then he may not have even known what was in the box or bag. Yes, if he’s innocent he should still somehow be informed that this gift caused concern. However, if, being innocent, it is learned that this was a community thank you gift/payment bought by a female then I don’t see that the type of item itself was inappropriate; it’s more that he should have waited to speak with the mom herself rather than the youngest daughter.

I’m just saying to slow down before coming to conclusions. I can see a number of scenarios that would fit our limited information, as well as the parents’ current limit of information.

I understand what you mean, but in the professional arena this is an area where he really needs to use his own judgment to tell him not to go for this idea. His secretary (if he has a female secretary buying these things) may mean well, but if he’s in his 30’s he needs to know that this is not an acceptable gift. If he trusted his assistant to find something that would be appropriate for him to give, he needs to have a talk with her, too. She may not agree, but a gift from him has to be appropriate as* from him*. To put him on the spot of admitting that he turfed his gift-giving out to someone else’s judgment and imagination is not doing him any professional favors. The gift ought to be something it would be thoughtful and appropriate for* him* to have given.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ll agree, unless—since the work she did benefitted everyone (maybe like shoveling snow off of a church walkway, for example) the man was merely giving a gift bought by a church secretary (in my example) at his request to choose a useful thank you gift for the girl. We don’t really know the whole story, and neither does the OP at this point.

Yes, but it’s very easy for the OP to find out.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yeah–I feel like t-shirts are an exception to the “no clothing” rule because they are given away with wild abandon nowadays.

If T-shirts as a thank-you gift were chosen by a committee or given equally to all members of a group, it would not have crossed a line. It is one 30-year-old man in a position of authority recognizing the efforts of just one 16 year old young woman. That is dicey territory.

Let’s face it, too: Sometimes these personal gifts are dicey because the 30 year old plans to prey on the cute 16 year old or even an 18 year old. Sometimes it is even a 50 year old swooping in on a 22 year old, who is technically not “off limits.” That situation wouldn’t exactly be hit-the-lottery rare. (Ask anyone who worked at the Clinton White House.)

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, but it’s very easy for the OP to find out.

If that was the case, someone needs to wake up whoever gave the 30 year old man the job of giving their group gift to the 16 year old young woman. That was* not *well-planned.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yeah–I feel like t-shirts are an exception to the “no clothing” rule because they are given away with wild abandon nowadays.

Well since we own a T shirt business and we give them away to teens all the time I think I would like to chime in here. Giving someone a shirt is one thing. Giving an expensive brand is another. The OP said she would never buy them. Plus a man buying a young girl clothes or even giving them to her is creepy. It denotes size and shape of body to be thought of beforehand. This is not a S M or L thing, it is a " Here are some expensive clothes, I think they are your “size” kind of thing.

An older man in authority should NEVER EVER do this to a teen girl not yet old enough to drive.
Creeeeeeepyyyyyy.
At best this guy is clueless. At worst he is a wolf at the door.
Either way, a great time to teach some lessons to the girl and she may just end up becoming a stronger woman because of it. Early teen girls should be getting clothes themselves from a job that pays money, or family members or parents. And that is pretty much it. There is much to be learned here about men, women, and the idea of gifts and boundaries.

 

[Xantippe]

Good, he should have known immediately and you should take steps to address this with your daughter as well. It sounds like you guys are going to handle this well now.

This information is almost worthless. But you can use it to teach her about gifts, and men and women. But she is not able to make the distinction now if there have been past inappropriate actions this is why it is important you use this as a teaching tool.

Though you are on the right track now this sentence shows a naive outlook that you should try to remedy. I am not trying to belittle you but only cause you to change the way you are assessing the situation. You need to do this for your daughter. Dismissing it because why would he do it in front of the parents is exactly what predators count on and why they do it. They blur one boundary so that later they can blur others. They count on the idea that if they do things in front of you, you will not be suspicious. Even as young men we are taught this when pursuing a girl. Give her flowers in front of her dad or mom… etc…
I would really suggest for you to call up your diocese and ask when the next safe environment class is and take it. Even if this has nothing to do with the Church, there is valuable info for you in that class. If not, take a self defense class or a community safety class in your town. Since you probably are not wired to think like this, you might want to defer to your husband in this matter. Yes, dad might blow it out of proportion and embarrass you or your child. My wife has turned red a few times I have acted as “protector” of my kids and wife that is part of the job.

Yes, this is indeed alarming

Dont misunderstand me. I am not advocating getting pitchforks out and yelling child molester from the town bell tower. I actually want to point out that it is unlikely there is anything too dangerous here. But there are some flags and there are some concerning parts of your own thinking in your posts. That last line about being worried about raising flags is telling. Dont be. Who cares. But don’t go off half cocked either. Just have your husband return the gift and tell him that it is inappropriate and you cannot accept it. Nothing else has to be done EXCEPT that the daughter cannot be alone with this man in a room ever. EVER. And you should be extra watchful. No need to tell the man why, or accuse him of anything at all. No need to cause a public outcry either. Just make sure your minor child is protected…That is not really that hard no matter what vague situation you have…
No thirty year old man would do this in front of me at all. And if it did happen, it would be shut down quickly and nicely but most decisively.
Your husband, not you, needs to do this as it will be taken more seriously and there will be almost no chance of a predator (even though that is probably not the case) pursuing a girl who’s father has taken a position.
You also owe your husband a big apology. My wife would be worried how I would react and that would be her first clue that she SHOULD tell me.

And NO car rides.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And NO car rides.

Good point! Of course.
As a youth minister we cannot even take a teen home who does not have a ride. I wish the world was not like that because of course the Christlike thing to do would be to help. But how soon we forget how badly this can go…

 

[Xantippe]

You guys have probably already thought of this, but she also needs instructions as to what to do when a group event is thinning out and she doesn’t have a ride arranged, and her options are sketchy.

 

[Xantippe]

Not to monopolize this thread, but I thought I should mention something.

I was doing a big “family life” seminar for my 13-year-old a few months ago. I used a number of different books. One thing I realized at some point was that the materials (although pretty good in what they covered) were deficient with regard to info for the teen equivalent of “stranger danger” (or sadly and more accurately, “people-you-know danger”).

I don’t have my notes handy, but I talked about sexual assault and some ideas from the Gift of Fear about trusting instincts about situations that make you uncomfortable. There’s a list here about pre-incident indicators that the OP might want to share with her daughter:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear

One item that jumps out at me is “loan sharking”–I feel like one could put too-generous gifts into that category.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Though you are on the right track now this sentence shows a naive outlook that you should try to remedy. I am not trying to belittle you but only cause you to change the way you are assessing the situation. You need to do this for your daughter. Dismissing it because why would he do it in front of the parents is exactly what predators count on and why they do it. They blur one boundary so that later they can blur others. They count on the idea that if they do things in front of you, you will not be suspicious. Even as young men we are taught this when pursuing a girl. Give her flowers in front of her dad or mom… etc…
I would really suggest for you to call up your diocese and ask when the next safe environment class is and take it. Even if this has nothing to do with the Church, there is valuable info for you in that class. If not, take a self defense class or a community safety class in your town. Since you probably are not wired to think like this, you might want to defer to your husband in this matter. Yes, dad might blow it out of proportion and embarrass you or your child. My wife has turned red a few times I have acted as “protector” of my kids and wife that is part of the job.

Yes, this is indeed alarming

Dont misunderstand me. I am not advocating getting pitchforks out and yelling child molester from the town bell tower. I actually want to point out that it is unlikely there is anything too dangerous here. But there are some flags and there are some concerning parts of your own thinking in your posts. That last line about being worried about raising flags is telling. Dont be. Who cares. But don’t go off half cocked either. Just have your husband return the gift and tell him that it is inappropriate and you cannot accept it. Nothing else has to be done EXCEPT that the daughter cannot be alone with this man in a room ever. EVER. And you should be extra watchful. No need to tell the man why, or accuse him of anything at all. No need to cause a public outcry either. Just make sure your minor child is protected…That is not really that hard no matter what vague situation you have…
No thirty year old man would do this in front of me at all. And if it did happen, it would be shut down quickly and nicely but most decisively.
Your husband, not you, needs to do this as it will be taken more seriously and there will be almost no chance of a predator (even though that is probably not the case) pursuing a girl who’s father has taken a position.
You also owe your husband a big apology. My wife would be worried how I would react and that would be her first clue that she SHOULD tell me.

Not meaning to derail the thread, but here’s the thing for me, HoosierDaddy. You talk about remedying a naive outlook. Okay, I can respect that some people are wired to be more on their guard than others. But, every time in my “real life” in which I’ve seen this in people, each time their suspicions in time proved to be wrong. And, on another thread, I was talking about artists routinely drawing strangers (such as at a park) for drawing practice. I didn’t say anything about the ages of people an artist might sketch. But you said that if you saw me (not that we know each other) drawing your children without permission, you’d give me a bloody nose. That’s assault. If you really did do that, I believe your victim could have had you arrested.

So as I read this thread, I’m still thinking some people allow themselves to be over-protective.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Not meaning to derail the thread, but here’s the thing for me, HoosierDaddy. You talk about remedying a naive outlook. Okay, I can respect that some people are wired to be more on their guard than others. But, every time in my “real life” in which I’ve seen this in people, each time their suspicions in time proved to be wrong. And, on another thread, I was talking about artists routinely drawing strangers (such as at a park) for drawing practice. I didn’t say anything about the ages of people an artist might sketch. But you said that if you saw me (not that we know each other) drawing your children without permission, you’d give me a bloody nose. That’s assault. If you really did do that, I believe your victim could have had you arrested.

So as I read this thread, I’m still thinking some people allow themselves to be over-protective.

You are clouded by you reading a response on another post.

Do you have kids? Do you work with teens in the church? If so, you need to go over your training again.
Overprotective? Nope I have advocated nothing outside of logical safe precautions. You however seem to wish to dangerously extend and misapply the idea of charity to the point of foolishness.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Good, he should have known immediately and you should take steps to address this with your daughter as well. It sounds like you guys are going to handle this well now.

This information is almost worthless. But you can use it to teach her about gifts, and men and women. But she is not able to make the distinction now if there have been past inappropriate actions this is why it is important you use this as a teaching tool.

Though you are on the right track now this sentence shows a naive outlook that you should try to remedy. I am not trying to belittle you but only cause you to change the way you are assessing the situation. You need to do this for your daughter. Dismissing it because why would he do it in front of the parents is exactly what predators count on and why they do it. They blur one boundary so that later they can blur others. They count on the idea that if they do things in front of you, you will not be suspicious. Even as young men we are taught this when pursuing a girl. Give her flowers in front of her dad or mom… etc…
I would really suggest for you to call up your diocese and ask when the next safe environment class is and take it. Even if this has nothing to do with the Church, there is valuable info for you in that class. If not, take a self defense class or a community safety class in your town. Since you probably are not wired to think like this, you might want to defer to your husband in this matter. Yes, dad might blow it out of proportion and embarrass you or your child. My wife has turned red a few times I have acted as “protector” of my kids and wife that is part of the job.

Yes, this is indeed alarming

Dont misunderstand me. I am not advocating getting pitchforks out and yelling child molester from the town bell tower. I actually want to point out that it is unlikely there is anything too dangerous here. But there are some flags and there are some concerning parts of your own thinking in your posts. That last line about being worried about raising flags is telling. Dont be. Who cares. But don’t go off half cocked either. Just have your husband return the gift and tell him that it is inappropriate and you cannot accept it. Nothing else has to be done EXCEPT that the daughter cannot be alone with this man in a room ever. EVER. And you should be extra watchful. No need to tell the man why, or accuse him of anything at all. No need to cause a public outcry either. Just make sure your minor child is protected…That is not really that hard no matter what vague situation you have…
No thirty year old man would do this in front of me at all. And if it did happen, it would be shut down quickly and nicely but most decisively.
Your husband, not you, needs to do this as it will be taken more seriously and there will be almost no chance of a predator (even though that is probably not the case) pursuing a girl who’s father has taken a position.
You also owe your husband a big apology. My wife would be worried how I would react and that would be her first clue that she SHOULD tell me.

Thank you for your stance on protecting children and young people with strength and confidence. Do we know the age of the daughter who received this gift and the age of the giver/authority figure?

I have tried to read all of this thread, but I may have honestly missed it.