Decline gift etiquette

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I very much appreciate your stance on protecting children and young people with strength and confidence… Do we know the age of the daughter who received this gift and the age of the giver/authority figure?

I have tried to read all of this thread, but I may have honestly missed it.

Man in his 30s, her not old enough to drive. And most certainly a minor. I’m not sure what difference the age would matter at all anyway.

 

[sherimarie]

You said your husband would be upset at him, maybe you should really put more weight on that thought. Does he see something you are missing?

 

[robertmidwest]

The tops, in themselves, are not inappropriate. It’s the giving of clothing that doesn’t sit right.

Without going into exact detail, the “relationship” is strictly of a person in high authority, whom we have the utmost respect for, with a person who is beneath that authority.

Not wanting to assume dark intentions, I feel obligated to return the gift, even though the intention may be pure. Afraid that a line may have or may be crossed in the future, but at the same time apprehension in possibly offending the giver by declining.

Looking to return it with a note saying thought was appreciated but that teenager cannot accept the gift (which is of a luxury brand we would never have purchased).

Peace.

+JMJ+

A high end clothing purchase for a teenage girl from an older man? This sounds like grooming behavior.

A person in high authority? People don’t get promoted up the ladder without learning about appropriate behavior with opposite sex subordinates. Not in the culture we live in.

I think your gut instinct about this red flag is right on. You would be right about returning the gift.

 

[AbideWithMe]

You are clouded by you reading a response on another post.

Do you have kids? Do you work with teens in the church? If so, you need to go over your training again.
Overprotective? Nope I have advocated nothing outside of logical safe precautions. You however seem to wish to dangerously extend and misapply the idea of charity to the point of foolishness.

HoosierDaddy, as I said, I’m talking about slowing down long enough for the OP’s family to gather facts before acting, which they seem to be doing. Nothing foolish about that.

You threatened to give an artist, sketching in a park as is common practice, a bloody nose rather than talking to that artist or calling the police. Giving a hard punch in the face, to a stranger who is sitting still, seems extremely imprudent to me, so I’m left with no reason to ignore my own instincts to slow down and gather facts before acting, rather than believe someone else’s instincts.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

HoosierDaddy, as I said, I’m talking about slowing down long enough for the OP’s family to gather facts before acting, which they seem to be doing. Nothing foolish about that.

You threatened to give an artist, sketching in a park as is common practice, a bloody nose rather than talking to that artist or calling the police. Giving a hard punch in the face, to a stranger who is sitting still, seems extremely imprudent to me, so I’m left with no reason to ignore my own instincts to slow down and gather facts before acting, rather than believe someone else’s instincts.

Ok. Great.

Do you have any thoughts on safe emvironment rules in your diocese. Or perhaps some thoughts on if this man should do this?

Or do you have an example where I overreacted in this thread. If you wish to continue the photography conversation I think that thread is still open and I would be happy to address that more in depth there.

 

[EasterJoy]

You are clouded by you reading a response on another post.

Do you have kids? Do you work with teens in the church? If so, you need to go over your training again.
Overprotective? Nope I have advocated nothing outside of logical safe precautions. You however seem to wish to dangerously extend and misapply the idea of charity to the point of foolishness.

Yes. A Catholic parish in compliance with the *Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People *would not allow an adult staff member or volunteer to single out a minor volunteer to receive personal gifts, particularly gifts valuable enough that they weren’t a token. It would violate their code of conduct, particularly if the adult had enough of a position to warrant being characterized as in position of authority.

Allowing such gifts would be giving would-be offenders an opportunity typically employed to groom teens as victims of sexually predatory behavior. No, most people who gave such gifts in the past weren’t grooming young people as their victims. Yes, a lot of people who were grooming young people as their victims did employ this in their arsenal of methods. That is the whole point of the policy.

Any non-token gift–and anything so expensive the recipient’s family wouldn’t buy it for her is no token–also raises the specter of favoritism or a possible conflict of interest. The young woman would also be wise to avoid getting entangled in something like that. She should not accept gifts of value not offered to other volunteers or not given by an official act of the organization she’s volunteering for.

 

[Xantippe]

Not meaning to derail the thread, but here’s the thing for me, HoosierDaddy. You talk about remedying a naive outlook. Okay, I can respect that some people are wired to be more on their guard than others. But, every time in my “real life” in which I’ve seen this in people, each time their suspicions in time proved to be wrong. And, on another thread, I was talking about artists routinely drawing strangers (such as at a park) for drawing practice. I didn’t say anything about the ages of people an artist might sketch. But you said that if you saw me (not that we know each other) drawing your children without permission, you’d give me a bloody nose. That’s assault. If you really did do that, I believe your victim could have had you arrested.

So as I read this thread, I’m still thinking some people allow themselves to be over-protective.

Photographing or drawing strangers without permission is kind of shady, especially if it’s children. (Although I understand that with photography, you might accidentally wind up with a stranger in your picture. Also, I understand not asking permission if there’s some sort of newsworthy public event happening.) Is it so hard to ask permission?

I find it a little surprising that each and every time people around you had suspicions, they were proved wrong. I find that people in my social circle have a much higher accuracy rate than zero.

I was just looking around online, and it appears that somewhere between 1% and 5% of adult men are sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Think of all the people you’ve ever known, and that it is almost certainly the case that you know several pedophiles personally. They aren’t rare at all. You probably say hello to a pedophile any time you are in a moderate-sized group of people.

It’s even worse considering what percentage of adults are sexually attracted toward mid-teenage girls and boys. 15-year-old girls are often very beautiful. It’s not at all freakish or unusual for a grown man to have sexual feelings toward young teenage girls. Men and women who are attracted to young teenagers are mostly held back by good morals, fear of punishment, and vigilant parents, but now and then, the system breaks down and bad stuff happens. Vigilant parents are like kryptonite for predators.

 

[revert_jen]

Dh is now completely aware of this situation and is also very saddened by it. I was able to temper his reaction so that he understands I’ve been trying to keep him and myself from jumping to conclusions while working on taking calculated steps.

I’ve spoken to her and she has reassured us there have been no instances of impropriety on any one’s part.

She’s not able to drive yet and he’s in his thirties.

The gift was given to my youngest daughter, in my presence, because I was preoccupied at the moment, with a message that it be given to sibling He left before I was available to speak to him.

It’s hard to decipher as I feel if there was mal intent involved he probably wouldn’t have been so blatant to do it in my presence.

Of course, there are people who also try to get in good with the parents, so that’s something we also understand. We are thinking carefully how to address this issue without making a public scene, for example if we remove ourselves completely from any and all occasions and go elsewhere. Our absence may raise many red flags as we are actively involved within the whole picture.

Peace.

+JMJ+

I think the concentration on the OP and her husband and the giver is missing something. And that something can be used in the response to the giver.

What is the most important thing here? That the daughter learns that whatever the intent, you don’t accept personal gifts from men outside the family. For the response, it really doesn’t matter at all what the giver’s intentions were. This is fortunate because nobody except him knows what they were.

The response I’d suggest is something along the lines of, “I’m sorry, and I appreciate your generosity, but we think it would set a bad precedent for our daughter to learn that it is OK to accept gifts like this from men. Of course, it is OK in this particular situation, but we find that, since she is too young to tell what is OK and what isn’t, we just have to have a “zero-tolerance” policy about gifts of that sort. It just wouldn’t be safe for her to think it is OK. I’m sure you understand, and I sincerely hope you won’t take offence.”

If he does take offence, too bad. It means he puts his ego over your daughter’s future safety. The most important thing is that your daughter (and any younger children, who will no doubt be paying attention) learns not to accept inappropriate gifts. It is a bit less important for them (right at this moment) to learn why. It would be a good idea to explain a bit later, late enough so that it doesn’t look like you’re saying anything bad about that particular giver, but definitely before she leaves home (for college, for example).

It is dangerous to set the precedent for accepting gifts like that, and it seriously limits your ability to refuse gifts on her behalf from less savory people in the future, because you won’t be able to refuse them without it sounding a lot like an accusation. (“Gosh, Mom! It was OK when so-and-so gave me those clothes! Why isn’t it OK for so-and-other-so to do it? It’s not fair, you’ve always been against so-and-other-so…” and so on.)

–Jen

 

[AbideWithMe]

Ok. Great.

Do you have any thoughts on safe emvironment rules in your diocese. Or perhaps some thoughts on if this man should do this?

Or do you have an example where I overreacted in this thread. If you wish to continue the photography conversation I think that thread is still open and I would be happy to address that more in depth there.

I’ve already said everything I’ve thought during this thread: slow down; remember this gift was a form of return for work already done for a group, so it’s not an outright gift as would be characteristic of a grooming gift; it doesn’t really sound like a disproportionately expensive gift (relative to being in return for work that an adult would charge for) especially if bought on sale as the missing tags might indicate; we don’t have reason to know the man actually bought the gift himself, rather than a woman in the group of people who benefitted from the girl’s service; and slow down again, considering that things may not be as they first appear, when more facts are known.

I don’t know if you over-reacted in this thread; I do know that no man (or woman) has even said they would give me a bloody nose before in any circumstance, so, um, yeah, that did stick with me to be wary of you, to be frank, that you would even talk like that. We weren’t arguing on the other thread, so I was surprised at your words, to say the least. As you can see, I’m capable of deciding myself when someone has earned my distrust.

It was a thread about drawing, not photography.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’ve already said everything I’ve thought during this thread: slow down; remember this gift was a form of return for work already done for a group, so it’s not an outright gift as would be characteristic of a grooming gift; it doesn’t really sound like a disproportionately expensive gift (relative to being in return for work that an adult would charge for) especially if bought on sale as the missing tags might indicate; we don’t have reason to know the man actually bought the gift himself, rather than a woman in the group of people who benefitted from the girl’s service; and slow down again, considering that things may not be as they first appear, when more facts are known.

I don’t know if you over-reacted in this thread; I do know that no man (or woman) has even said they would give me a bloody nose before in any circumstance, so, um, yeah, that did stick with me to be wary of you, to be frank, that you would even talk like that. We weren’t arguing on the other thread, so I was surprised at your words, to say the least. As you can see, I’m capable of deciding myself when someone has earned my distrust.

It was a thread about drawing, not photography.

Have a nice day.

 

[Xantippe]

I think the concentration on the OP and her husband and the giver is missing something. And that something can be used in the response to the giver.

What is the most important thing here? That the daughter learns that whatever the intent, you don’t accept personal gifts from men outside the family. For the response, it really doesn’t matter at all what the giver’s intentions were. This is fortunate because nobody except him knows what they were.

The response I’d suggest is something along the lines of, “I’m sorry, and I appreciate your generosity, but we think it would set a bad precedent for our daughter to learn that it is OK to accept gifts like this from men. Of course, it is OK in this particular situation, but we find that, since she is too young to tell what is OK and what isn’t, we just have to have a “zero-tolerance” policy about gifts of that sort. It just wouldn’t be safe for her to think it is OK. I’m sure you understand, and I sincerely hope you won’t take offence.”

If he does take offence, too bad. It means he puts his ego over your daughter’s future safety. The most important thing is that your daughter (and any younger children, who will no doubt be paying attention) learns not to accept inappropriate gifts. It is a bit less important for them (right at this moment) to learn why. It would be a good idea to explain a bit later, late enough so that it doesn’t look like you’re saying anything bad about that particular giver, but definitely before she leaves home (for college, for example).

It is dangerous to set the precedent for accepting gifts like that, and it seriously limits your ability to refuse gifts on her behalf from less savory people in the future, because you won’t be able to refuse them without it sounding a lot like an accusation. (“Gosh, Mom! It was OK when so-and-so gave me those clothes! Why isn’t it OK for so-and-other-so to do it? It’s not fair, you’ve always been against so-and-other-so…” and so on.)

–Jen

Very good.

And to simplify the question of what is and isn’t inappropriate, make a rule that kids have to ask parents before accepting any valuable gift given just to them. (Candy or pencils given out to everybody at CCD or school would be fine.)

Hopefully, by the time that kids are college age and are living more independently, they’ll have a better sense for themselves of what is and isn’t appropriate. I like the rule that anything that a young woman could not easily by herself, she should not accept from an unrelated male who is not a fiance. And that would cover even dinners out. If she can’t afford steak, she shouldn’t let a gentleman friend who isn’t a fiance take her out for steak.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Photographing or drawing strangers without permission is kind of shady, especially if it’s children. (Although I understand that with photography, you might accidentally wind up with a stranger in your picture. Also, I understand not asking permission if there’s some sort of newsworthy public event happening.) Is it so hard to ask permission?

I find it a little surprising that each and every time people around you had suspicions, they were proved wrong. I find that people in my social circle have a much higher accuracy rate than zero.

I was just looking around online, and it appears that somewhere between 1% and 5% of adult men are sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Think of all the people you’ve ever known, and that it is almost certainly the case that you know several pedophiles personally. They aren’t rare at all. You probably say hello to a pedophile any time you are in a moderate-sized group of people.

It’s even worse considering what percentage of adults are sexually attracted toward mid-teenage girls and boys. 15-year-old girls are often very beautiful. It’s not at all freakish or unusual for a grown man to have sexual feelings toward young teenage girls. Men and women who are attracted to young teenagers are mostly held back by good morals, fear of punishment, and vigilant parents, but now and then, the system breaks down and bad stuff happens. Vigilant parents are like kryptonite for predators.

Drawing strangers in public is something artists do all the time. Art schools recommend it for practice, as well. Sketch clubs also meet to draw people in public.

Usually, people come over to chat with sketchers. I’ve yet to know anyone before who got verbally threatened with a punch in the face whilst drawing.

 

[revert_jen]

Hopefully, by the time that kids are college age and are living more independently, they’ll have a better sense for themselves of what is and isn’t appropriate. I like the rule that anything that a young woman could not easily by herself, she should not accept from an unrelated male who is not a fiance. And that would cover even dinners out. If she can’t afford steak, she shouldn’t let a gentleman friend who isn’t a fiance take her out for steak.

This is very good advice for anyone who manages to date someone who can afford steak. I solved this problem myself in college and the time just after that by only dating people who were as poor as I was. It wasn’t intentional, but it probably saved me from embarrassment.

The awkwardness of having to refuse a present from a boyfriend because it is too expensive can’t be ignored. So along with the advice above, you might mention that if you are dating someone and your birthday is coming up, you should take just a minute to lay ground rules, “…otherwise, if my parents find out, they’ll have a fit unless I give it back,” or if that isn’t age-appropriate, “…I’m sorry, it’s just one of those things that were drilled into me as I was growing up.”

–Jen

 

[bitterhope]

Photographing or drawing strangers without permission is kind of shady, especially if it’s children. (Although I understand that with photography, you might accidentally wind up with a stranger in your picture. Also, I understand not asking permission if there’s some sort of newsworthy public event happening.) Is it so hard to ask permission?

I find it a little surprising that each and every time people around you had suspicions, they were proved wrong. I find that people in my social circle have a much higher accuracy rate than zero.

I was just looking around online, and it appears that somewhere between 1% and 5% of adult men are sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Think of all the people you’ve ever known, and that it is almost certainly the case that you know several pedophiles personally. They aren’t rare at all. You probably say hello to a pedophile any time you are in a moderate-sized group of people.

It’s even worse considering what percentage of adults are sexually attracted toward mid-teenage girls and boys. 15-year-old girls are often very beautiful. It’s not at all freakish or unusual for a grown man to have sexual feelings toward young teenage girls. Men and women who are attracted to young teenagers are mostly held back by good morals, fear of punishment, and vigilant parents, but now and then, the system breaks down and bad stuff happens. Vigilant parents are like kryptonite for predators.

How is 1%-5% not considered rare when speaking about pedophiles, yet 1%-5% is considered extremely rare in nearly every other grouping of anything else I’ve ever heard spoken of? Just because this is a group of predators that are particularly nasty and disgusting and horrible doesn’t make that percentage not rare.

 

[Xantippe]

How is 1%-5% not considered rare when speaking about pedophiles, yet 1%-5% is considered extremely rare in nearly every other grouping of anything else I’ve ever heard spoken of? Just because this is a group of predators that are particularly nasty and disgusting and horrible doesn’t make that percentage not rare.

It’s a small enough number that any particular person probably isn’t a pedophile, but a large enough number that we all know a pedophile, even if we don’t realize that they are a pedophile. In fact, we all probably have known several.

And the number of adult males attracted to mid-teenage girls is way, way higher than the 1-5%, so it is reasonable to scrutinize adult males who are singling out our underage daughters for attention.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It’s a small enough number that any particular person probably isn’t a pedophile, but a large enough number that we all know a pedophile, even if we don’t realize that they are a pedophile. In fact, we all probably have known several.

And the number of adult males attracted to mid-teenage girls is way, way higher than the 1-5%, so it is reasonable to scrutinize adult males who are singling out our underage daughters for attention.

A recent news article that I’m not going to link here showed that “teens” was the most searched for keyword nationwide. I don’t think that “pedophilia” is included but our society has a “fetish” for pushing the limits on ages. As a father of daughters this alarms me to no end.

 

[bitterhope]

I do understand the concern. I’m a woman that grew up with a police detective father who was a retired MP. I have 8 kids–3of them girls. My husband is a soldier. I had foster siblings. Believe me when I say there are far greater dangers out there threatening your daughters (and sons!) than sexual predators. The paranoia has a tendency to blind us to true threats and also can and does cause problems for innocent people. A priest in our diocese was falsely suspected of misconduct with a teen. He was cleared but the rumors will follow him for the rest of his life. Honestly I worry more for my boys than my girls. The potential for false accusations coming up against one them for well intentioned actions that get construed negatively is much greater than my daughters being violated.

 

[EasterJoy]

How is 1%-5% not considered rare when speaking about pedophiles, yet 1%-5% is considered extremely rare in nearly every other grouping of anything else I’ve ever heard spoken of? Just because this is a group of predators that are particularly nasty and disgusting and horrible doesn’t make that percentage not rare.

Well, it would be astronomically high, if you were talking about the prevalence of serial killers or the maternal mortality rate.

The thing to remember when we decide how rare is not rare enough is this: We are talking about risk and return. Anyone who has been preyed upon by one of these persons can tell you that a lifetime of nice tops from 100 “safe” men would not be worth the one guy who meant to groom them for a sick relationship.

That is what happens to teens: it usually isn’t just one incident. A man doesn’t cultivate the trust of a much-younger person so he can jump out from behind the copying machine and molest her. The aim of the predator who grooms his or her victims is the development of an unhealthy relationship that allows habitual offenses, a relationship that seriously and adversely affect those relationships that come after for his victim or victims.

The other issue with these kinds of gifts is that they open the door for suspicions of favoritism and conflict of interest. In other words, people cultivate “good will” with this kind of gift in order to reach ends that are unfair rather than criminal. It is wise to avoid that kind of thing in your professional life.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

After review of some of the posts I want to mention that if this is at all in any way a parish issue with a priest or youth minister, this needs to be reported no matter what’s. That does not mean that people’s lives will be ruined or that people will lose jobs etc. It just needs to be reported. And then people can be corrected or advised. Same applies if this is a school as well.

 

[EasterJoy]

I do understand the concern. I’m a woman that grew up with a police detective father who was a retired MP. I have 8 kids–3of them girls. My husband is a soldier. I had foster siblings. Believe me when I say there are far greater dangers out there threatening your daughters (and sons!) than sexual predators. The paranoia has a tendency to blind us to true threats and also can and does cause problems for innocent people. A priest in our diocese was falsely suspected of misconduct with a teen. He was cleared but the rumors will follow him for the rest of his life. Honestly I worry more for my boys than my girls. The potential for false accusations coming up against one them for well intentioned actions that get construed negatively is much greater than my daughters being violated.

That is the other reason to encourage this 30 year old to avoid giving inappropriate gifts to younger women. These policies help to protect the older men from attracting inappropriate interest from younger women and help them to protect themselves from false accusations, whether those accusations come from misunderstanding or vindictiveness.

Professional distance protects both sides in a relationship where the power is uneven, where there is a conflict of interest problem, or just where there isn’t a moral avenue for a close relationship to develop, because both sides are vulnerable.