Decline gift etiquette

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After review of some of the posts I want to mention that if this is at all in any way a parish issue with a priest or youth minister, this needs to be reported no matter what’s. That does not mean that people’s lives will be ruined or that people will lose jobs etc. It just needs to be reported. And then people can be corrected or advised. Same applies if this is a school as well.
In our archdiocese, this would have to be reported to the superior of the adult no matter whether the adult was a staff member or volunteer and regardless of what his position was. He could be the groundskeeper, and this would be a violation of the code of conduct.
 
Well, it would be astronomically high, if you were talking about the prevalence of serial killers or the maternal mortality rate.

The thing to remember when we decide how rare is not rare enough is this: We are talking about risk and return. Anyone who has been preyed upon by one of these persons can tell you that a lifetime of nice tops from 100 “safe” men would not be worth the one guy who meant to groom them for a sick relationship.

That is what happens to teens: it usually isn’t just one incident. A man doesn’t cultivate the trust of a much-younger person so he can jump out from behind the copying machine and molest her. The aim of the predator who grooms his or her victims is the development of an unhealthy relationship that allows habitual offenses, a relationship that seriously and adversely affect those relationships that come after for his victim or victims.

The other issue with these kinds of gifts is that they open the door for suspicions of favoritism and conflict of interest. In other words, people cultivate “good will” with this kind of gift in order to reach ends that are unfair rather than criminal. It is wise to avoid that kind of thing in your professional life.
Right.
 
I guess I’m just not understanding this whole thing. My son was given an expensive gift from an older female for volunteering his help. He refused payment so she later went out and spent the amount she would have paid him on a gift. It was way more than we could ever afford to spend on him. Should I have been suspicious of her? It was parish related actually. This has happened twice now. He no longer helps her out because it conflicts with his job schedule, but I don’t see what is so bad with her showing her appreciation the way she did. Personally I would not consider 1-5% astronomically high for anything but I guess that’s just me. And yes, I’ve met confirmed pedophiles (three convicted and two are currently in prison still) as well as people who have been abused. I still find the chances of something else actually occurring to my own kids is way higher and harder to prevent. I don’t leave my kids with anyone except my husband and he only leaves them with me. We only have one computer so online activities are monitored. We have good communication and they trust we can be talked to about anything at all. Sex abuse requires opportunity. Opportunity is easy to shut down. I am not at all naive about the evils of the world. I know what exists and have seen the aftermath of quite a bit of it first hand. I’m just not about to allow it to have so much control over me that my decisions are based on suspicions or paranoia because those choices never turn out best in the end. The OP is being very conservative in the information she’s willing to post and none of it is really enough to make a firm conviction upon. People are drawing conclusions about someone that are very negative when there really isn’t any evidence beyond suspicions drawn about one incident with very little information if that one incident.
 
I guess I’m just not understanding this whole thing. My son was given an expensive gift from an older female for volunteering his help. He refused payment so she later went out and spent the amount she would have paid him on a gift. It was way more than we could ever afford to spend on him. Should I have been suspicious of her? It was parish related actually. This has happened twice now. He no longer helps her out because it conflicts with his job schedule, but I don’t see what is so bad with her showing her appreciation the way she did. Personally I would not consider 1-5% astronomically high for anything but I guess that’s just me. And yes, I’ve met confirmed pedophiles (three convicted and two are currently in prison still) as well as people who have been abused. I still find the chances of something else actually occurring to my own kids is way higher and harder to prevent. I don’t leave my kids with anyone except my husband and he only leaves them with me. We only have one computer so online activities are monitored. We have good communication and they trust we can be talked to about anything at all. Sex abuse requires opportunity. Opportunity is easy to shut down. I am not at all naive about the evils of the world. I know what exists and have seen the aftermath of quite a bit of it first hand. I’m just not about to allow it to have so much control over me that my decisions are based on suspicions or paranoia because those choices never turn out best in the end. The OP is being very conservative in the information she’s willing to post and none of it is really enough to make a firm conviction upon. People are drawing conclusions about someone that are very negative when there really isn’t any evidence beyond suspicions drawn about one incident with very little information if that one incident.
It is only after you expose a pattern of behavior that things start to add up. So yea, I agree in isolation a gift given around the parents is probably nothing. I think the posters here just want the behavior reported in case there is a pattern that emerges around this guy.

In my own experience grooming behavior never involved gifts (didn’t want to set off alarm bells with parents I think) but rather consisted of boundary pushing: drink this sacristy wine, hugs just long enough to be uncomfortable, dirty jokes, and inappropriate questions in confession. It was all stuff that wasn’t likely to be conveyed to the parents and all stuff that had an air of plausible deniability if he was called out on it. Not getting a lot of alarm bells with this guy but I don’t think that reporting the gift to his superiors will amount to much of anything. The only thing that reporting it will do will count towards his “strike count” should something more serious emerge later on.
 
After review of some of the posts I want to mention that if this is at all in any way a parish issue with a priest or youth minister, this needs to be reported no matter what’s.
I guess I’m just not understanding this whole thing. My son was given an expensive gift from an older female for volunteering his help. He refused payment so she later went out and spent the amount she would have paid him on a gift. It was way more than we could ever afford to spend on him.
Most dioceses have a clear code of conduct. Violations must be reported. Likewise, the details of the violation may clear up that the rules may not apply to a specific situation. Rules cannot apply to every situation, though violation of rules is one of the red flags to predatory behavior. I can understand a large gift if one feels it is owed for labor and the person rejected payment, though I would have accepted the service as a gift to God. But I understand it. Still, I would have reported it. Remember, such reports are never public knowledge. What one person may have noted as suspicious, but understandable, may be just one piece in a larger puzzle. When a person in authority, the priest, or someone in the diocese, starts to consider a multitude of incidents, in their totality, it may present overwhelming evidence of predatory behavior.

In this case, it was one gift. Except what if it wasn’t? There may be many other innocuous deviations from accepted behavior (or code of conduct). If no one reports the single incidents, then no understanding can be reached of what is really happening. If this is an isolated incident, and this one bit of evidence of grooming is an aberration, then no one else need know and nothing comes of it. But what if this is one of the key pieces. Protecting children is not just a matter of protecting our child. It is protecting *all *children, including those in the future. Everyone needs to know their current parishes rules on accepted behavior and how to report violations of that behavior.
 
But you said that if you saw me (not that we know each other) drawing your children without permission, you’d give me a bloody nose. That’s assault. If you really did do that, I believe your victim could have had you arrested.
Just a quick note before anyone gets arrested, but in my state, people in public have no expectation of privacy. I believe this universal. One can photograph or sketch children in public. The only recourse a parent has is to leave, ask for the person to cooperate by not taking an image of your child, or to call the police to come and see if they know if the person is a sex offender (though they may or may not do this). Perhaps one more option would be to simply photograph the photographer (sketcher) as a deterrent should the person be a predator seeking a child.
 
It is only after you expose a pattern of behavior that things start to add up. So yea, I agree in isolation a gift given around the parents is probably nothing. I think the posters here just want the behavior reported in case there is a pattern that emerges around this guy.
Right.

And a lot of the advice is “just keep your eyes open” and “make sure he’s never alone with your kids.” A lot of people don’t follow bittherhope’s never-without-a-parent policy (I don’t), so we have to be vigilant in other ways. I would never, for instance, allow a sleepover or an unescorted birthday party to a house where the daddy had singled out my daughter in any way.

Also, as a number of people have pointed out, if this has anything to do with the Church, there are Church policies.

I would be alarmed by the lady buying expensive gifts for work for my child without clearing that with me first (unless it was a 17 or 18 year old–which bitterhope’s might be). I am alarmed by anybody who doesn’t respect the fact that I am the parent and I am in charge of my child. What if bitterhope didn’t want her son to have that much money or the particular expensive item? A lot of people have concerns of that sort, and often for good reason.
 
Good point! Of course.
As a youth minister we cannot even take a teen home who does not have a ride. I wish the world was not like that because of course the Christlike thing to do would be to help. But how soon we forget how badly this can go…
I have often thought about this, and the possibility that due to some odd emergency such a ride might truly be needed. Given enough time everything that can happen will happen. Here is what I do.

I always let parents leave their children, as long as at least one remains, and tell them that when the kids are picked up, one parent must stay.
I have told my priest to call if he is ever in a situation and needs another adult.
If in a situation I think that safety is best served by giving a ride, I am going to call the time and mileage when I leave and when I drop off, and record an audio of the trip. I will then report the incident to the priest myself.

I had one interesting gift situation. I bought Christmas gifts for the young people who sing in the choir with me, multi-ribbon bookmarks. One girl already had one of these. I got her a bracelet of the same price at the Catholic bookstore. When I say “I”, I let my wife pick it out and told her parents both who picked it out and why I got her something different, but of the same value, before hand. But we are talking a gift under ten dollars and a gift was given to all the youth. Even then, I felt the whole time like I had to make my reasoning crystal clear. I tell you, most adults understand the limits of interaction between adults and youth.
 
I have often thought about this, and the possibility that due to some odd emergency such a ride might truly be needed. Given enough time everything that can happen will happen. Here is what I do.

I always let parents leave their children, as long as at least one remains, and tell them that when the kids are picked up, one parent must stay.
I have told my priest to call if he is ever in a situation and needs another adult.
If in a situation I think that safety is best served by giving a ride, I am going to call the time and mileage when I leave and when I drop off, and record an audio of the trip. I will then report the incident to the priest myself.

I had one interesting gift situation. I bought Christmas gifts for the young people who sing in the choir with me, multi-ribbon bookmarks. One girl already had one of these. I got her a bracelet of the same price at the Catholic bookstore. When I say “I”, I let my wife pick it out and told her parents both who picked it out and why I got her something different, but of the same value, before hand. But we are talking a gift under ten dollars and a gift was given to all the youth. Even then, I felt the whole time like I had to make my reasoning crystal clear. I tell you, most adults understand the limits of interaction between adults and youth.
That’s how a sensible person handles it.

One of the grandpas in our family was in town a few years ago without grandma and offered to host our oldest overnight at his hotel. It would have been a great treat for oldest, as there’s a pool at the hotel (oldest was 10 or 11 at the time). I didn’t feel good about it and I thought it would be weird for oldest without grandma since she normally doesn’t see a lot of grandpa but wasn’t sure about the phrasing. My husband finally told grandpa, “Our oldest is a big girl now” or something like that and grandpa totally got it and wasn’t offended at all.

That’s how a safe, sensible person deals with it when parents are doing their job.
 
Maybe I missed it, but am I the only one who immediately thought that what really happened was someone was given a gift of these clothes that they didn’t like/didn’t fit and couldn’t return them because of no tags? So they asked around and this guy said - hey, so-and-so over at X could probably use them, she’s a nice kid, does lots of volunteer work, we’ll give them to her as a thank-you and then her parents won’t see it as charity and feel strange about it.

Honest - the above situation has happened with me and my kids a couple dozen times - lots of people feel strange about accepting an item from someone with more wealth/power because they think it’s being done as charity so the person giving tries to tie it to something else. Also lots of people feel strange about regifting so try not to draw attention to that is what they’re doing.

I use to try to refuse the gift because I thought they bought it but then they embarrassingly admitted it was an item they (or someone they knew) couldn’t return and they just wanted someone to use it. So now I just let the kids accept it (or I accept it) and move on. Someone wants to give me a gift, I’ll accept it in a spirit of good will — and just quietly pass it along if it’s not useful to us.

Maybe it’s because I’m not often in a situation where I can give something nice, so when I can (maybe I was given it, maybe I found a great deal at a yard sale) and I’m all excited to pass it along to someone as a gesture of gratitude/good will and they refuse it, I have felt terrible.

So I guess I just don’t go along with all the issues with gift giving. Now if it was repeated gifts from this guy or they were inappropriate then I would see an issue. But otherwise we are told repeatedly to “fear not” - and I just won’t read more into something than there is. 🤷
 
Has it been determined that this person works for the diocese or a Catholic school?

Or is it someone that the daughter did some errands for or some other type of service?

If it’s the former, then bring it up with a supervisor (pastor, principal etc)

If it’s the latter, then the OP needs to be more vigilant. He might just be clueless, and not have ever read any etiquette books on giving gifts to minors.

But, it should be standard procedure that a young girl or boy never have unsupervised time with an unrelated adult.

I guess I’m just having a hard time following the concern.

I first thought it was the price of the shirts, which could have been purchase inexpensively regardless of the brand.

But the general uneasy feeling about a gift from an older man is something I understand.
 
One of the things they really stressed in my safe environment training is to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, and that’s as much to protect the adult as it is to protect the child. It teaches the child what’s an appropriate way for an adult in authority to behave, but it also offers the adult an “out” in the case of a false accusation.

For example, we were taught that if a child needs to use a multi-stall restroom, escort the kid to the bathroom, and then stand with one foot in the door of the restroom and one foot in the hall. This will be visible on video cameras in the hall, so if, heaven forbid, the kid’s trying to set you up, it’ll be obvious you didn’t do anything, but also if there’s a predator in the bathroom, they’re not going to be pushing limits with a responsible adult right there.

Similarly, no single-out gifts. Another poster mentioned bookmarks for all, for example, and yep, that’s fine, or substituting a similarly-priced gift with everything being very obvious and above-board. If you gave all the other kids ribbon bookmarks and that one kid a $300 Pandora bracelet, that’s a serious problem both from the kid’s perspective (“Mr. Smith gave me this nice bracelet, so now I have to let him do things I otherwise might say no to,”) and from an innocent-but-unwise adult perspective (that kind of thing is NOT going to look good in either a legal court or the court of public opinion).
 
Just to reiterate for clarification:

Daughter has never been alone with the giver – contact is in group settings or perhaps one other individual is present.

It’s not that the tops had their tags removed that is the concern, like/dislike of style, or that they may have been “regifted.” The choice of clothing as a gift is the concern, with the expensive brand added to the mix. I know they were expensive as the brand name is one of a high end value make – which, by the way, we know the giver is a frequent buyer from. Both shirts were of the same brand.

It very well could be that giver is extremely naive to think that shirts would be OK as a choice of gift. Doing a google search online for gift ideas for a teenage girl will often list clothing as an option.

Peace.

+JMJ+
 
Man in his 30s, her not old enough to drive. And most certainly a minor. I’m not sure what difference the age would matter at all anyway.
Thank you. It makes a difference in my mind and perhaps in the minds of others.

We have many rules/guidelines about this in my diocese and I am yearly re-certified in Safeguarding God’s Children and I take that responsibility very seriously.
 
Just to reiterate for clarification:

Daughter has never been alone with the giver – contact is in group settings or perhaps one other individual is present.

It’s not that the tops had their tags removed that is the concern, like/dislike of style, or that they may have been “regifted.” The choice of clothing as a gift is the concern, with the expensive brand added to the mix. I know they were expensive as the brand name is one of a high end value make – which, by the way, we know the giver is a frequent buyer from. Both shirts were of the same brand.

It very well could be that giver is extremely naive to think that shirts would be OK as a choice of gift. Doing a google search online for gift ideas for a teenage girl will often list clothing as an option.

Peace.

+JMJ+
You don’t need to judge him or use Google. The gift is inappropriate; you are not overreacting. Have your daughter return the gift, thank him for expressing his appreciation, but express the regret that it is not appropriate for a sixteen year old to accept gifts from an older man not her relative when the same gift is not being given to the whole group of volunteers, and particularly not personal gifts such as clothing. She can assure him she did not take it as a sign of any bad intention, but just not good policy for her to accept it. If you or she are not comfortable with that, you or your husband can do it, since your daughter is still a minor and the gift-giver is clearly an adult.

Keep it that simple, unless this was a violation of a code of conduct in place at the organization where it occurred that applies to the gift giver. In that case, you or she needs to report the violation, even though your can make it clear that there is no other conduct or events that would lead you to believe he had inappropriate intentions.
 
One of the things they really stressed in my safe environment training is to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, and that’s as much to protect the adult as it is to protect the child. It teaches the child what’s an appropriate way for an adult in authority to behave, but it also offers the adult an “out” in the case of a false accusation.

For example, we were taught that if a child needs to use a multi-stall restroom, escort the kid to the bathroom, and then stand with one foot in the door of the restroom and one foot in the hall. This will be visible on video cameras in the hall, so if, heaven forbid, the kid’s trying to set you up, it’ll be obvious you didn’t do anything, but also if there’s a predator in the bathroom, they’re not going to be pushing limits with a responsible adult right there.

Similarly, no single-out gifts. Another poster mentioned bookmarks for all, for example, and yep, that’s fine, or substituting a similarly-priced gift with everything being very obvious and above-board. If you gave all the other kids ribbon bookmarks and that one kid a $300 Pandora bracelet, that’s a serious problem both from the kid’s perspective (“Mr. Smith gave me this nice bracelet, so now I have to let him do things I otherwise might say no to,”) and from an innocent-but-unwise adult perspective (that kind of thing is NOT going to look good in either a legal court or the court of public opinion).
Yes, on all this. The rules are meant to protect everyone, both the youth and the adults having contact with them, and to avoid giving anyone the wrong idea. I would highly encourage those who learn these rules for their local parish to also observe them where these rules are not the official policy (such as when coaching Little League or volunteering with the youth symphony).

If this fellow keeps this up, he could find some 16 year old thinks he wants to be her boyfriend! He really needs to avoid that, and his organization needs him to avoid that.
 
Anytime an adult wants to give an individual gift to a child-it would be wise to go throught the parents first- and that’s what I would say to the gift giver. Even birthday gifts.

I would tell him kindly that we don’t accept extravagant gifts and you wish he’d come to you first–because we can’t accept this.
 
Update:

Giver has asked me once and teenager twice if the tops fit. Both of us have responded with a generic, “They were fine. Thank you.”

The first time he asked teenager, she was passing through and it was a quick occasion. On the other occasion, I was approached and was passing through.

The second time he asked teenager, he had sought her out in a location he knew she would be at. He was surprised to discover I was in an adjacent hall as he passed through and said a quick “hello” without any eye contact. As I entered the area where he and teenager were, he looked visibly uncomfortable and spoke on a superficial topic and quickly left without making eye contact with me. Teenager told me he had initially inquired about the shirts before I entered the room.

The fact that he entered a location where he is not normally looked extremely suspicous and out of place. He seemed to know she was there, but was completely unaware that I was there as well.

In addition, he has offered in general to all the people to transport anyone to certain group activities (which we did not take him up on) – knowing said activities is something teenager has had an interest in. Luckily, teenager did not attend event.

Teenager has been placed in recognizable position of leadership (through unrelated circumstances), publicly thanked, and made to feel very important and respected. She has been treated in an “adult-like” capacity. Although very mature and reserved, teenager is still “immature” in her worldview and street smart. The public acknowledgements has made her express, in private with her family, how talented and needed she is there.

There is nothing that I can quite put my finger on, outside of a “strong suspicion” of his attempts towards impropriety.

Peace.

+JMJ+
 
The second time he asked teenager, he had sought her out in a location he knew she would be at. He was surprised to discover I was in an adjacent hall as he passed through and said a quick “hello” without any eye contact. As I entered the area where he and teenager were, he looked visibly uncomfortable and spoke on a superficial topic and quickly left without making eye contact with me. Teenager told me he had initially inquired about the shirts before I entered the room.
Yep, so it sounds like he has picked the shirts himself and continues with an interest in them. That is way too much interest for a supposed generic thankyou gift.

I would try and make discreet inquiries about him with a higher up… if there are any. I would mention to them that he gave the gift of shirts and you felt it was too personal and unwarranted. There are little ways you can register your attention that aren’t exactly ‘accusing’ but so often when someone is caught out… then lots of others come out of the woodwork with little stories that could have made an important picture before the end game.
 
Quite frankly, attention or no, you are well within your rights to tell him (or rather have your husband tell him) “don’t ever talk to my daughter again - do you understand me?? Never again.”

You aren’t besmirching his reputation unfairly with others, or anything like that - you are simply taking steps to protect your daughter. Now of course, if you have more reasons to suspect him of nefarious ends, you’d have an obligation to not simply stop at protecting your own children.

Adult men don’t go around giving gifts to anyone not in their family, short of possibly their own employees/staff, especially teenagers, most especially girls. That’s ridiculous. What kind of dude buys shirts for a teenage girl?

Generally, two kinds - clueless, socially inept guys, and ill-intended perverts.

It is one thing to hope for the former, but I would plan for the latter. I get not wanting to think ill of people, and give them the benefit of the doubt, but when it comes to protecting children, I plan for the worst. You cannot undo harm once it occurs.
 
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