Decline in catholic church

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If there is no ecumenal Mass, what do you call the joint-service/Mass that the Lutherans and Catholics have in Germany?
 
Mak Twain said if have one foot in boiling water and another in a bucket of ice, then you are statistically comfortable.

Since the whole gist of this thread is based on statistical correlations that do not have a substantiated relationship, I am going to blame everything on global warming.
 
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ByzCath:
That’s very good, yes this document, Decree on Ecumenism, was one of the 16 doucments that came out of the council.

Also please point out where in the Decree on Ecumenism the Mass is mentioned.
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Gee Whiz Byz Whiz do I get a B+ . Like so much that came out of V2 it wasn’t the document it was the implementation of it. The committee that came up with the new liturgy wanted to make it more acceptable to our Christian brothers…

I’d like to remind you that my post was about the decline in the Church in the USA article ( Any comments there ?) not my personal comment . You seemed to have dragged the post way off topic. I will make a seperate post on the liturgy forum just fot that. One question. Where were you in the mid 1960’s when V2 was up and running ? You seem to remember the flavor of the times .
 
First I would like to know why you stated there is a decline in the Catholic Church? I have seen some statistics to the contrary.

The Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University recently reported that the number of Catholics per parish has grown at a rate higher than the number of new parishes over the past 50 years. The number of parishes has increased 26 percent since 1950, but at the same time the number of Catholics per parish has increased 64 percent.
 
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MeaCulpa:
First I would like to know why you stated there is a decline in the Catholic Church? I have seen some statistics to the contrary.

The Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University recently reported that the number of Catholics per parish has grown at a rate higher than the number of new parishes over the past 50 years. The number of parishes has increased 26 percent since 1950, but at the same time the number of Catholics per parish has increased 64 percent.
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The article I referred to did not me. Did you read it ?

How many old parishes have closed vs new parishes ?
 
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Axion:
The troubles referred to in the original article, both in the USA and in Europe are due in my opinion to two things, both resulting from misapplication of Vatican II:
  1. Poor catachesis. How many Catholics know enough about their faith and why they do what they do? Many Catholics know little about purgatory, the importance of the Real presence, why we pray to Saints. Justification, sanctification and other vital elements of the Faith. Too many are easily confused by protestant “evangelists”, or atheists who say its all mumbo-jumbo.
    Since the 60s the Church has been teaching kids a sort of lowest-common-denominator “be nice to everyone”, “kumbaya” Christianity instead of the Catholic Faith.
  2. Changes in the Mass and Liturgical innovations. The old saying was “As we pray, so we believe.” De-sacralising the Mass by cutting down the ancient ceremonial and so reducing reverence, virtually abolishing kneeling to receive, and other folksy protestantising innovations mean that the VALUE of the mass and the importance of the miracle is often unwittingly reduced in the eyes of those who take part. That is one reason belief in the real presence has fallen. If it really is Jesus, why reduce the ceremonial? Why stand rather than kneel to receive? Why emphasise the communal-meal aspect, and de-emphasize the mystic sacrifice? Why tuck away the sacrament in a back room or side-altar?
Reduce the central importance of mass this way, and reduce belief in it, and no wonder people start thinking its not that important to miss a few masses.
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Right on! Until catechesis returns during the Sunday homily the situation will continue to deteriorate. Why even go to Sunday Mass if the consequences for missing without good cause are not made clear during your formation in CCD, RCIA etc? It is a serious obligation to attend because it is pleasing to God and good for us both temporally and eternally. If we miss without cause it is a mortal sin and we risk losing our soul for all eternity if we don’t repent before death.

But who is aware of that as it is NEVER taught from the Sunday pulpit (at least where I live). Since there are no apparent negative consequences for missing is it any wonder Sunday Mass attendence is down to 33% nationwide? Our thoughts, words and actions are determined by the rewards and punishments associated with those thoughts,words & action.

If it is (apparently) no big deal to miss Mass, or to commit adultery, steal large sums, then why not do it??? After all, at many funerals the deceased is already in heaven according to the priest - God is a God of love, mercy, kindness etc etc. No mention is EVER made that Jesus mentioned the possibility of eternal damnation roughly every three pages in the four gospels.
 
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tom.wineman:
Google Father Stephen Somerville.

He was in on the new litergy back in th late 60’s. What do you think they call it the Novus Ordo .
Read
traditioninaction.org/religious/m002rpMisunderstandingMass.htm
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The main issues brought out by the website above are that the Novus Ordo:

1)suppressed the sacrificial character of the Mass, denied by Protestants,
  1. emphasized the Mass as a memorial and a banquet, as preached by Protestants,
  2. stressed the role of the people as essential to the “celebration of the Eucharist,” also defended by Protestants.
Read what the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy - Second Vatican Council dated 4 Dec 1963 says:
*
47. At the Last Supper, on the night when He was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of His Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the centuries until He should come again, and so to entrust to His beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of His death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet in which Christ is eaten, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.
  1. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ’s faithful, when present at this Mystery of Faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators; on the contrary, through a good understanding of the rites and prayers they should take part in the sacred action conscious of what they are doing, with devotion and full collaboration. They should be instructed by God’s Word and be nourished at the table of the Lord’s Body; they should give thanks to God; by offering the Immaculate Victim, not only through the hands of the priest, but also with him, they should learn also to offer themselves; through Christ the Mediator, they should be drawn day by day into ever more perfect union with God and with each other, so that finally God may be all in all.*
The above highlights are mine.

Anyone who goes to mass knows that Protestants are prohibited from receiving Holy Communion as they do not believe in the Real Presence.

An “Ecumenical Mass” would make our mass and sacrifice acceptable to Protestants which it IS NOT.
 
Instead of fussing and fretting over the Church across the planet, perhaps greater emphasis needs to be put on the decline of the faith among ones own circle of friends and family. It is far easier to point fingers at the demons of liberalism and modernism than to engage in self-examination of our own role in the furthering of the kingdom.

We are all called to discipleship and part of that calling is the bearing of fruit. The church will be expanded one conversion at a time. If all of the thousands of us here were deligent in this process of conversion among our families and friends, this would be a moot thread.
 
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pnewton:
Instead of fussing and fretting over the Church across the planet, perhaps greater emphasis needs to be put on the decline of the faith among ones own circle of friends and family. It is far easier to point fingers at the demons of liberalism and modernism than to engage in self-examination of our own role in the furthering of the kingdom.

We are all called to discipleship and part of that calling is the bearing of fruit. The church will be expanded one conversion at a time. If all of the thousands of us here were deligent in this process of conversion among our families and friends, this would be a moot thread.
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AMEN!
👍
 
JOE OBERR:
Right on! Until catechesis returns during the Sunday homily the situation will continue to deteriorate. Why even go to Sunday Mass if the consequences for missing without good cause are not made clear during your formation in CCD, RCIA etc? It is a serious obligation to attend because it is pleasing to God and good for us both temporally and eternally. If we miss without cause it is a mortal sin and we risk losing our soul for all eternity if we don’t repent before death.

But who is aware of that as it is NEVER taught from the Sunday pulpit (at least where I live). Since there are no apparent negative consequences for missing is it any wonder Sunday Mass attendence is down to 33% nationwide? Our thoughts, words and actions are determined by the rewards and punishments associated with those thoughts,words & action.

If it is (apparently) no big deal to miss Mass, or to commit adultery, steal large sums, then why not do it??? After all, at many funerals the deceased is already in heaven according to the priest - God is a God of love, mercy, kindness etc etc. No mention is EVER made that Jesus mentioned the possibility of eternal damnation roughly every three pages in the four gospels.
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With tongue in cheek, could I suggest if you are looking for good old fire and brimstone sermons you might try the preaching in the churches of our seperated brethren. I guess it proves the old rule that “you can’t have it all” and must chose between the Eucharistic Liturgy or powerful sermons. 😃 😃
 
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bob:
The main issues brought out by the website above are that the Novus Ordo:

1)suppressed the sacrificial character of the Mass, denied by Protestants,
  1. emphasized the Mass as a memorial and a banquet, as preached by Protestants,
  2. stressed the role of the people as essential to the ?celebration of the Eucharist,? also defended by Protestants.
Read what the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy - Second Vatican Council dated 4 Dec 1963 says:
*
47. At the Last Supper, on the night when He was betrayed, our Savior instituted t,he Eucharistic sacrifice of His Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the centuries until He should come again*, and so to entrust to His beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of His death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet in which Christ is eaten, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.
  1. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ’s faithful, when present at this Mystery of Faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators; on the contrary, through a good understanding of the rites and prayers they should take part in the sacred action conscious of what they are doing, with devotion and full collaboration. They should be instructed by God’s Word and be nourished at the table of the Lord’s Body; they should give thanks to God; by offering the Immaculate Victim, not only through the hands of the priest, but also with him, they should learn also to offer themselves; through Christ the Mediator, they should be drawn day by day into ever more perfect union with God and with each other, so that finally God may be all in all.
The above highlights are mine.

Anyone who goes to mass knows that Protestants are prohibited from receiving Holy Communion as they do not believe in the Real Presence.

An “Ecumenical Mass” would make our mass and sacrifice acceptable to Protestants which it IS NOT.
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Perhaps the term “ecumenical mass” wasn’t exactly on point, if most people interpret it as permitting intercommunion. But your first three points do support what Tom Wineman said: The reforms of Vat II resulted in a Mass that more closely resembled a Protestant service. Partly by design, partly in the implementation. Read the little pamphlet “The Catholic Sanctuary” or the book “Liturgical Timebombs” by Micheal Davies and just look objectively at the facts. (Davies, recently deceased, was a traditionalist who couldn’t quite accept Vatican II. But you can accept Vat II and still appreciate the truth of some of his observations.) Also, for the question of whether the Church is in decline or not, check out the book “Key Indicators of Catholicism” by Kenneth Jones. Lots of stats, but interesting ones that tell the story of what happened with clergy and practicing Catholics in the past 40 years or so. Also, except for intercommunion, I know quite a few Protestants who have no qualms about attending Mass (and unfortunately, many of our mixed marriage parents of RE students who permit the children to :“alternate” weeks instead of consistently attending Mass. Perhaps the most insidious effect of some of the changes and/or lack of catechesis, is that the Catholics have taken an ecumenical approach which says either “service” (or none) is just fine.
 
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Confiteor:
Perhaps the term “ecumenical mass” wasn’t exactly on point, if most people interpret it as permitting intercommunion. But your first three points do support what Tom Wineman said: The reforms of Vat II resulted in a Mass that more closely resembled a Protestant service. Partly by design, partly in the implementation. Read the little pamphlet “The Catholic Sanctuary” or the book “Liturgical Timebombs” by Micheal Davies and just look objectively at the facts. (Davies, recently deceased, was a traditionalist who couldn’t quite accept Vatican II. But you can accept Vat II and still appreciate the truth of some of his observations.) Also, for the question of whether the Church is in decline or not, check out the book “Key Indicators of Catholicism” by Kenneth Jones. Lots of stats, but interesting ones that tell the story of what happened with clergy and practicing Catholics in the past 40 years or so. Also, except for intercommunion, I know quite a few Protestants who have no qualms about attending Mass (and unfortunately, many of our mixed marriage parents of RE students who permit the children to :“alternate” weeks instead of consistently attending Mass. Perhaps the most insidious effect of some of the changes and/or lack of catechesis, is that the Catholics have taken an ecumenical approach which says either “service” (or none) is just fine.
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Wow, I wish I could have said it that well 🙂
 
this thread is a great example of the can of worms that vatican2 openend up. the church tried to be more worldly and the left all the more.
ps Byz cath you keep saying to a ceartain poster on this thread that they have a bias. need I remind you there is no such thing is an unbiased person? your liberal bias shines through.
 
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