Decline in Conversions/Seminarians

[samurai333]

So, having lately begun to attend a Traditional Catholic Parish, and do the whole FSSP thing, and reading articles by traditional Catholic writers, from those “ok” with Rome to Sedevacantists, they invariably mention the decline in adult baptisms/confirmations and seminarians since Vatican II. I love the Traditional Mass and do have my reservations about Novus Ordo, but sometimes I really question wether this has that much to do with the Novus Ordo vs. Tridentine debate. I mean, as secular as society was in 1965 compared to say, 1500, how much more so is it today than 40 years ago? With the advent of the internet, so much television pop culture dribble and the like, it seems like society is just so secularized that I am not sure how much interest in seminary and the like there would be no matter what form of mass were common nowadays. I am curious to hear the opinions of other forum members on this matter.
Excuse me if this has been beaten to death or anything already, I dont post here that often so I dont know.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

The way I understand it, it is not the Tridentine in and of itself that brings about change, but the mindset that it reflects and that it encourages in a church community, namely, traditionalism. A parish that offers a Tridentine Mass is shown to already have a certain amount of traditionalism- people there are willing to take the Faith seriously- and when more people are exposed to the beauty of the Latin Mass, that mentality will tend to spread.

 

[Cathryn]

As someone who goes to both forms of the Mass regularly, I believe that as more people are encouraged to spend one hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament whenever possible, with people being encouraged by their pastors to say the rosary daily, and frequent confession there will be more conversions and more seminarians regardless of whether Masses are done in the the EF or a reverent OF. It’s mainly the supernatural grace of the Sacraments, sound doctrine, and the Holy Spirit that will bring about these conversions and seminarians.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I think the reason so much changed was not Vatican II but the whole cultural revolution that took place from the 1960’s on. Yes vocations took a hard hit. I am happy to say that in the Archdiocese where I am, vocations have increased for our Major Seminary from 8-12 just about 5 years age to almost 130 today. We as church took a hit with all this, but the Church is coming back stronger than ever. i firmly believe this. Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ProVobis]

If people put themselves in the priest’s shoes for a minute, I think the decline can be readily seen. I realize this doesn’t cover all the duties of a priest but why would someone become a priest where everyone in the parish thinks he or she is qualified to run the parish or dictate what goes on in the liturgy? And where no one feels compelled to go to confession? I certainly wouldn’t and to me it’s no surprise that more and more are attracted to the Latin Mass as it seems the priest has a larger role to play in the parish and liturgy.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I remember growing up in the 1940’ & 50’s hearing hellfire and damnation sermons. Morality was taught from the pulpit. I remember one priest using his homilies to teach the 10 Commandments this way. One each Sunday. Others did this with the Sacraments. They spoke out about movies that people should not go to, which by todays standards were like Disney pictures. Then all hell broke loose in the 1960’s & 70"s and our entire culture changed. This was followed by the scandal within our own Church with pedophilia. I was a victim of this in the 50’s and with God’s grace was wise enough to recognize it was not the Church that did this but was one man in the Church. I instinctively knew to avoid him, which I did, but prayed for him. He has since died, and I keep him in my prayers daily for the salvation of his soul. I Much has taken place that has greatly reduced vocations and made it more difficult on those good priests we do have, who are proud to wear their Roman collar to be known as a priest. In airports, I have seen people insult them because they were a priest. I would go up and thank them, for being a priest and let them know they and all others were in my prayers. So often, so many think it OK to bash and criticize them, the mass the Novus Ordo, the Latin Mass. Criticism is not what is needed, but help and support is needed. They are carrying a burden heavier than most people will ever know. that is why I have so many friends who are priests. Good solid men of God. When they are at my home, many have told my wife (we have been married 43 years) and I, it is like a refuge for them, where they can relax and be themselves. If only everyone will treat them this way. Remember, God’s justice is infinite and his alone. But his mercy is also infinite. That is what we should practice and encourage others to practice. The Church is coming out of this and we will survive in spite of ourselves. Why, because we have Jesus’ promise that the Holy Spirit will be with us and will guide us. Man can do all he wants, but he will NEVER destroy what Jesus has built. Nuf said - thats all…
Prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Brenda_V]

As someone who goes to both forms of the Mass regularly, I believe that as more people are encouraged to spend one hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament whenever possible, with people being encouraged by their pastors to say the rosary daily, and frequent confession there will be more conversions and more seminarians regardless of whether Masses are done in the the EF or a reverent OF. It’s mainly the supernatural grace of the Sacraments, sound doctrine, and the Holy Spirit that will bring about these conversions and seminarians.

Cathryn,

This is so true. My own Parish is starting to show the signs or fruits of this behavior. We are encouraged to go to Confession frequently and we have a Perpetual Adoration Chapel! Our OF Masses are very reverent with only the errors you would expect of Humans (ie not intentional).

We have vocations to both religious life and the Priesthood coming about - some are transplants from other Parishes but could that be because they are fed here? We do not have an EF Mass, as a matter of fact our Priest (two year older than I am so that makes him 52) has out right said that he doesn’t have the time to learn the Latin to do the EF the way it should be done. Nor do any of the other Priests who work with our Parish - we have a Pastor and then we have the Vocations Director living in the rectory helping out with Masses and some Sacraments and a retired Priest who gives some of the most warm fuzzy, yet very pertinent Homilies and then there is Fr. M. who is associate Pastor but he is also the Pastor for the Mission so his time is divided too.

Some of the problem is our Priests are too overworked to get the proper training. My personal idea that would solve this is for all new Seminarians have to learn Latin as well as how to say the EF as well as the OF! If this were implemented then it would just be a matter of time that every Parish could replace one of the Sunday OF Masses with an EF one (say the earliest in the day). I don’t think I personally would have a problem with this if that was the Mass I normally attended, it wouldn’t change anything for me.

Brenda V.

Brenda V.

 

[saint_rafael]

The problem can be traced to Vatican II.

The United States was nominally Christian by the 50’s. The world had been trending atheist for decades. This was the time for the Church to circle around tradition. When you see a hurricane storm coming, you board up the house and close up everything.

Pope John XXIII decided on the other hand to invent Vatican II. It was not needed and it was a mistake. Vatican II did nothing about communism or atheism.
When the cultural revolution hit in the 60’s the Church was caught up with it’s fettish and obssesion with “Modern Man”. At the time when the Church should have told "Modern Man he was on his way to hell, it embraced him and lost the faith.

Pope John XXIII wanted to open the windows for some fresh air, and a new springtime, but what he got was the secularism that poisoned doctrine and let in all the filth. Vatican II was the cause of the Church joining the world down the road of secularism. At the time when the Church should have fought, it caved in. The Church has been powerless in the last decades because it too became a casualty of the 60’s secular revolution

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The problem can be traced to Vatican II.

The United States was nominally Christian by the 50’s. The world had been trending atheist for decades. This was the time for the Church to circle around tradition. When you see a hurricane storm coming, you board up the house and close up everything.

Pope John XXIII decided on the other hand to invent Vatican II. It was not needed and it was a mistake. Vatican II did nothing about communism or atheism.
When the cultural revolution hit in the 60’s the Church was caught up with it’s fettish and obssesion with “Modern Man”. At the time when the Church should have told "Modern Man he was on his way to hell, it embraced him and lost the faith.

Pope John XXIII wanted to open the windows for some fresh air, and a new springtime, but what he got was the secularism that poisoned doctrine and let in all the filth. Vatican II was the cause of the Church joining the world down the road of secularism. At the time when the Church should have fought, it caved in. The Church has been powerless in the last decades because it too became a casualty of the 60’s secular revolution

Please tell me, what is your background to make such a fallible declaration.
Prayers & Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[rwoehmke]

The problem can be traced to Vatican II. Pope John XXIII decided on the other hand to invent Vatican II. It was not needed and it was a mistake.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I for one am of the opinion that if it weren’t for Vatican II we would be in even worse disrepair.

The birth control issue settled finally by Paul VI was a pre-Vatican II problem. People thought the pill would change everything and before the decision was in many went for it. When it didn’t go their way they left.

Even those Catholics who stayed had on average fewer children. After the depression and the War people became more prosperous. It is a known statistic that as societies “move up” they tend to have fewer children.

Parents became on the average better educated as well. They no longer admired the priest with his shiny car and housekeep. Kids aren’t dumb. They know what positions and vocations are valued.

Because those responsible for catechisis shifted from teaching the basics of Catholicism to trying to explain the council we lost a good part of probably two generations.

Then in 1980’s we had the start of the abuse scandal which is finally playing out it’s second phase today.

Lately I meet a lot of young parents who attend Mass, who like and admire their priests once again. It is their children who will repopulate the priestly and religious ranks of our Church.

 

[saint_rafael]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I for one am of the opinion that if it weren’t for Vatican II we would be in even worse disrepair.

I think it if there was no Vatican II, things would have been better and we could have matched some of the reverence and piety of the earlier centuries. The Church would have lost some people to secularism, but we would have kept the faith and been a remnant.
When the world collapsed in the last couple of decades the Church would have been there as a refuge. Today, the Church would have been standing tall as the only answer left in the world and with the right solutions.

The birth control issue settled finally by Paul VI was a pre-Vatican II problem. People thought the pill would change everything and before the decision was in many went for it. When it didn’t go their way they left.

Even those Catholics who stayed had on average fewer children. After the depression and the War people became more prosperous. It is a known statistic that as societies “move up” they tend to have fewer children.

Parents became on the average better educated as well. They no longer admired the priest with his shiny car and housekeep. Kids aren’t dumb. They know what positions and vocations are valued.

Because those responsible for catechisis shifted from teaching the basics of Catholicism to trying to explain the council we lost a good part of probably two generations.

Then in 1980’s we had the start of the abuse scandal which is finally playing out it’s second phase today.

Lately I meet a lot of young parents who attend Mass, who like and admire their priests once again. It is their children who will repopulate the priestly and religious ranks of our Church.

The Church had already spoken on artificial contraception with Pope Pius XI’s 1932 encyclical “Casti Connubii”.

Humae Vitae was not a document of Vatican II and needed no council for it to be written. Pope John XXII did set up a papal commission to study the pill. It was made up of bishops, theologians, and married couples. Guess what, The Vote was 68-4 in favor of the pill! The commission recommended that the Church reverse it’s infallible ban an artificial contraception! Pope Paul VI, under the inspiration of the holy spririt rejected that heresy. The future Pope Jonn paul II was one of the four who dissented and thought that contraception was evil.

 

[I_Believe]

The problem can be traced to Vatican II.

The United States was nominally Christian by the 50’s. The world had been trending atheist for decades. This was the time for the Church to circle around tradition. When you see a hurricane storm coming, you board up the house and close up everything.

Pope John XXIII decided on the other hand to invent Vatican II. It was not needed and it was a mistake. Vatican II did nothing about communism or atheism.
When the cultural revolution hit in the 60’s the Church was caught up with it’s fettish and obssesion with “Modern Man”. At the time when the Church should have told "Modern Man he was on his way to hell, it embraced him and lost the faith.

Pope John XXIII wanted to open the windows for some fresh air, and a new springtime, but what he got was the secularism that poisoned doctrine and let in all the filth. Vatican II was the cause of the Church joining the world down the road of secularism. At the time when the Church should have fought, it caved in. The Church has been powerless in the last decades because it too became a casualty of the 60’s secular revolution

Close to being right I’d say. Fighting a changing society with revolutionary changes was a mistake.

Look at it this way. 1966. A catholic teen is ready to graduate high school, and because of his/her being brought up on traditional catholic catechesis, has avoided falling into the drug scene. Then all of the sudden, the folk songs that the pot heads are singing and listening to, are introduced in the classrooms and Liturgy.

Don’t roll your eyes folks. Right here in Louisville, I remember our music teacher, a nun, introducing us to Blowin in the Wind. Why ? So we could all sing it at Mass.

Yep, all of the sudden those hippies weren’t so bad after all. And hey, if their music was cool, then hanging out with them was cool too.

That was the message many kids assumed was being sent by the Church.

Fresh air didn’t come in through that window. Pot smoke did. Or, as a famous Catholic said, the Smoke of Satan.

But, hey, the summer picnics are cool. Plenty of beer to drink at the dice table.

 

[ProVobis]

The commission recommended that the Church reverse it’s infallible ban an artificial contraception! Pope Paul VI, under the inspiration of the holy spririt rejected that heresy.

But why did he wait so long? I believe he had an earlier and more confusing document on the topic. And why did he even put it to a vote? Many had taken the “uncertainty” over the issue as a pro-pill stand; priests were “allowing” people to use their consciences if not his downright approval.

 

[Lepanto]

I am happy to say that in the Archdiocese where I am, vocations have increased for our Major Seminary from 8-12 just about 5 years age to almost 130 today.

Not to rain on a parade, but I’d bet that at least 50% of those men are new immigrants who are here specifically because the archdiocese had to seek out and recruit seminarians from other countries.

Can you name the archdiocese?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The bubble just bust, yours that is. The vocations for our Archdiocese have increased to about 30 % of that number and the rest are from other diocese in the US. That 30% for us shows a 300 to 400 % increase for us over the last 10 years.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Spiller]

The problem can be traced to Vatican II.

The United States was nominally Christian by the 50’s. The world had been trending atheist for decades. This was the time for the Church to circle around tradition. When you see a hurricane storm coming, you board up the house and close up everything.

Pope John XXIII decided on the other hand to invent Vatican II. It was not needed and it was a mistake. Vatican II did nothing about communism or atheism.
When the cultural revolution hit in the 60’s the Church was caught up with it’s fettish and obssesion with “Modern Man”. At the time when the Church should have told "Modern Man he was on his way to hell, it embraced him and lost the faith.

Pope John XXIII wanted to open the windows for some fresh air, and a new springtime, but what he got was the secularism that poisoned doctrine and let in all the filth. Vatican II was the cause of the Church joining the world down the road of secularism. At the time when the Church should have fought, it caved in. The Church has been powerless in the last decades because it too became a casualty of the 60’s secular revolution

Are you Catholic?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The problem can be traced to Vatican II.

The United States was nominally Christian by the 50’s. The world had been trending atheist for decades. This was the time for the Church to circle around tradition. When you see a hurricane storm coming, you board up the house and close up everything.

Pope John XXIII decided on the other hand to invent Vatican II. It was not needed and it was a mistake. Vatican II did nothing about communism or atheism.
When the cultural revolution hit in the 60’s the Church was caught up with it’s fettish and obssesion with “Modern Man”. At the time when the Church should have told "Modern Man he was on his way to hell, it embraced him and lost the faith.

Pope John XXIII wanted to open the windows for some fresh air, and a new springtime, but what he got was the secularism that poisoned doctrine and let in all the filth. Vatican II was the cause of the Church joining the world down the road of secularism. At the time when the Church should have fought, it caved in. The Church has been powerless in the last decades because it too became a casualty of the 60’s secular revolution

By any chance, would you be a member of that break away group that we are not allowed to discuss on this forum. Because if you are, that explains your answers. If your are not,then we have a new mini-pope in our midst.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ProVobis]

By any chance, would you be a member of that break away group that we are not allowed to discuss on this forum.

You just did. Pretty slick, Deacon.

The bubble just bust, yours that is. The vocations for our Archdiocese have increased to about 30 % of that number and the rest are from other diocese in the US.

Are you including yourself?

 

[ProVobis]

The bubble just bust, yours that is. The vocations for our Archdiocese have increased to about 30 % of that number and the rest are from other diocese in the US.

Are you including yourself?

 

[saint_rafael]

FYI,

I am a traditional Catholic who attends the Latin Mass in my diocese. I am in no way part of that “other group”. I do however know Church history and Church doctrine. I have been studying my faith and history for many months. With the writings of Saints, Popes, Councils, Traditional Catholic writers, and my Baltimore Catechism, I am not easily confused by the novelties and the errors of these weak Papacies since Vatican II.

I am no mini-pope, but an HONEST observer of reality. It was painful at first, but the truth is that we are in a great apostasy because the Church has been in ruins since Vatican II.
The Church lost sight of the supernatural.

Through studying the twentieth century, I realized that the warnig of Pope Pius X had been realized, the errors of modernism had infected the Church along with the New Theology of heretics like Rahner, De Lubac, Von Balthasar, Kung, Raymond Brown and Teilhard de Chardin.

Fr. Malachi Martin who was a great Catholic and insider during Pope John XXIII and Vatican II. He has already written much about the thinking of Pope John and how he thought VII was going to be a real renewal. His many books have shown the great problems of the Church, like “The Windswept House”, which was a masterpiece on the thinking and actions of the “Slavic Pope”.

Many other Catholics have written a great deal about the topic of Vatican II and the current crisis: Michael Davies, John Vennari, Atila Guimarães, and Bishop Lefebvre.