Declining church attendance [Akin]

[Catholic_Opinion]

SDG here (not Jimmy) with some musings on the trend of falling church attendance, especially among Catholics…
In a combox discussion below about post-Vatican II liturgical changes, a reader suggested that post-Vatican II liturgical changes were responsible for a massive decline in Catholic church attendance. Of course church attendance has fallen everywhere, not just among Catholics – but another reader argued that Catholics have fallen away at much greater rates than their non-Catholic neighbors, implying that the fault must lie with changes in the Church:…

…I’m simply noting that the factors are complex, the social changes over the last few decades are complex, the issues are complex. We can’t simply conclude that if more people are falling away from the Church, the only possible explanation is limited to what the Church is doing wrong. At least in some cases, it may be what the Church is doing right.
Many disciples stopped following Jesus after his “hard sayings” in John 6, saying, “Who can accept this?” The same dynamic is at work today.

More…

 

[Matas]

…I’m simply noting that the factors are complex, the social changes over the last few decades are complex, the issues are complex. We can’t simply conclude that if more people are falling away from the Church, the only possible explanation is limited to what the Church is doing wrong.

The declining attendance and vocations was first pointed out to me with data and graphs back when *Vibrant Parish Life * was introduced at our parish. The timing of the decline seemed to coincide with the adoption of Vatican II reforms. It seemed simplistic to me to just blame the reforms, yet the evidence seemed to make a compelling argument. I frequently encounter the phrase, “changes in society” or “societal changes,” when people discuss this subject. Maybe these changes, whatever they are, could be a topic for further discussion of the “complex issues” alluded to by Catholic Opinion.

Here’s one - the rise of television. By 1960, many, if not most, households were tuned in. There was a television in every home. Could the rise of television watching be one thread in the complex web of issues that led to a decrease in Mass attendance/vocations?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Much of the recent decline comes from the fallout from the sex scandals and the lack of opening up and asking for forgiveness from the hierarchy. In many areas there seems to be a trend to close the doors and push for lockstep following of the rules, where to show true forgiveness the doors need to be open and transparent policies need to be put in place to bring back the trust of the laity. This has effected all parts of the church, regardless of what “side” you look at.

There is also the traditional age gap from 18-25 or so when young adults go off to college and do not return until they start a family. This is a normal break where much exploring is going on and many return in the end.

 

[jmcrae]

The cause, pure and simple, is Sunday School teachers and Catecheists who told kids (and I’m sure they meant well) that God cares less about their attendance at Church than He does about the purity of their souls.

What started off as a movement against legalism turned into an en masse exodus from the Churches, because “Teacher told us God doesn’t care whether we go to Church or not.” :extrahappy:

Why sit through a boring ritual if God doesn’t even care whether you’re there, or not? After all, it’s the spiritual things that count - whether or not you’re a good person. Not whether or not you go to Church.

I think those teachers meant well. I also think they had no idea that their teaching would be taken or understood to mean that Church attendance is not required.

I think they meant to say, “Church attendance is required, but being good is even more required.” But that part of the message didn’t get through, because they didn’t articulate it - because I think they forgot that children are even more simple-minded creatures than adults are.

 

[thistle]

SDG here (not Jimmy) with some musings on the trend of falling church attendance, especially among Catholics…
In a combox discussion below about post-Vatican II liturgical changes, a reader suggested that post-Vatican II liturgical changes were responsible for a massive decline in Catholic church attendance. Of course church attendance has fallen everywhere, not just among Catholics – but another reader argued that Catholics have fallen away at much greater rates than their non-Catholic neighbors, implying that the fault must lie with changes in the Church:…

…I’m simply noting that the factors are complex, the social changes over the last few decades are complex, the issues are complex. We can’t simply conclude that if more people are falling away from the Church, the only possible explanation is limited to what the Church is doing wrong. At least in some cases, it may be what the Church is doing right.
Many disciples stopped following Jesus after his “hard sayings” in John 6, saying, “Who can accept this?” The same dynamic is at work today.

More…

Which country are you talking about because it certainly has not fallen everywhere. In Africa and Asia Mass attendence has not fallen. Here in the Philippines Mass attendence is estimated about 80%+.

 

[Cat]

I really appreciate your stepping in on this and posting the article. Lots to think about.

It seems that there are some Catholics who want to blame everything, including decreasing attendance, on the NO Mass. They seem to be claiming that if we would just bring back the TLM and eliminate the NO, that Mass would be packed again.

There are other Catholics who want to blame declining Mass attendance on the use of contemporary music in the Mass. They seem to be claiming that if we would simply bring back Gregorian chant and Palestrina tunes, that the Mass would be standing-room only.

I personally think that these ideas are wishful thinking and unrealistic. I think that most Catholics stopped attending Mass for the reasons in the article, not because we say “Lord have mercy” instead of “Kyrie eleison,” and not because we sing “Lamb of God” instead of “Agnus Dei.”

 

[Joannm]

Kids sports on Sundays is a big reason why many of our families do not attend. True we often see kids coming to mass in soccer or lacrosse uniforms but those are our really practicing families. Many of our families see sports as more important. When I was taking to a parishioner asking why they do not come to mass every Sunday she told me that was the only day they had to spend together as a family and that church disrupted that family time…I really didn’t get it…but that is their attitude, church disrupts the time they want for something else. The pope himself could be here to say mass and they probably would not come, especially during lacrosse season.

 

[mommyof4]

I really appreciate your stepping in on this and posting the article. Lots to think about.

It seems that there are some Catholics who want to blame everything, including decreasing attendance, on the NO Mass. They seem to be claiming that if we would just bring back the TLM and eliminate the NO, that Mass would be packed again.

There are other Catholics who want to blame declining Mass attendance on the use of contemporary music in the Mass. They seem to be claiming that if we would simply bring back Gregorian chant and Palestrina tunes, that the Mass would be standing-room only.

I personally think that these ideas are wishful thinking and unrealistic. I think that most Catholics stopped attending Mass for the reasons in the article, not because we say “Lord have mercy” instead of “Kyrie eleison,” and not because we sing “Lamb of God” instead of “Agnus Dei.”

Kids sports on Sundays is a big reason why many of our families do not attend. True we often see kids coming to mass in soccer or lacrosse uniforms but those are our really practicing families. Many of our families see sports as more important. When I was taking to a parishioner asking why they do not come to mass every Sunday she told me that was the only day they had to spend together as a family and that church disrupted that family time…I really didn’t get it…but that is their attitude, church disrupts the time they want for something else. The pope himself could be here to say mass and they probably would not come, especially during lacrosse season.

I agree with both of these posters. I feel that American families are pulled in many different directions anymore, and people have a hard time priotitizing and putting God first over mowing the lawn, cleaning the house, sleeping in, going to soccer events, watching television, etc. I know, because for many years I was one of them. I honestly don’t think that we stayed away because the mass was in the vernacular. In fact, if it were in a language that we didn’t understand, I think we would have been even less likely to attend.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Many people, fundamentalist in particular, blame Vatican II for the current decline in Mass attendance.

Vatican II has been around for over 40 years now, the decline didn’t start until the past couple of decades and it varies across the country. We have the same attendance rate in my parish, that we always had.

However, if we did not have Vatican II, the change in our society itself, would’ve driven the decline of Mass attendance. People became lax in all areas of morality and discipline. Today, people go to funerals and wakes wearing blue genes. Respect for public officials is non-existent, compared to pre-1960 days.

Vatican II didn’t cause the decline, if anything, it kept the numbers up higher than they’d be if the Mass didn’t change to the vernacular.

Jim

 

[VociMike]

I posted this a few months ago and it’s worth repeating here:

Here are some figures from the book “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators”. The first column is the year, 2nd is percentage of Catholics attending Mass, and 3rd is percentage of Protestants attending their services (all USA figures). The intervals are not of equal time spans because that’s not how the data is presented on the graph.

1953 75% 45%
1960 73% 44%
1966 68% 40%
1969 65% 39%
1973 60% 40%
1976 52% 40%
1979 52% 40%
1980 53% 40%
1981 53% 41%
1982 51% 41%
1983 52% 40%
1986 51% 40%
1988 50% 41%
1991 50% 45%
1995 45% 45%

The key thing to note here is that Protestant attendance was very steady through the 1960s, 70s and 80s, and actually started to rise in the 90s. On the other hand, Catholic attendance dropped by an enormous percentage between the early 60s and the mid 70s, leveled off for about 15 years and then started to drop again.

In the 50s and early 60s, Catholic attendance was almost double the percentage of Protestant attendance. By 1995 Catholic attendance had dropped down to Protestant levels.

This is strong evidence to me that one cannot blame the decline on “the secular culture”, since U.S. Protestants were living in the very same culture as U.S. Catholics, but their attendance hardly dropped at all, and by 1995 was as high as it was in the 50s.

These figures make it clear that something happened in the Catholic world in the 60s and 70s that did not happen in the corresponding Protestant world. That pretty much lets out explanations like TV, kids sports, stores open on Sunday, etc.

 

[Walking_Home]

I posted this a few months ago and it’s worth repeating here:

Here are some figures from the book “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators”. The first column is the year, 2nd is percentage of Catholics attending Mass, and 3rd is percentage of Protestants attending their services (all USA figures). The intervals are not of equal time spans because that’s not how the data is presented on the graph.

1953 75% 45%
1960 73% 44%
1966 68% 40%
1969 65% 39%
1973 60% 40%
1976 52% 40%
1979 52% 40%
1980 53% 40%
1981 53% 41%
1982 51% 41%
1983 52% 40%
1986 51% 40%
1988 50% 41%
1991 50% 45%
1995 45% 45%

The key thing to note here is that Protestant attendance was very steady through the 1960s, 70s and 80s, and actually started to rise in the 90s. On the other hand, Catholic attendance dropped by an enormous percentage between the early 60s and the mid 70s, leveled off for about 15 years and then started to drop again.

In the 50s and early 60s, Catholic attendance was almost double the percentage of Protestant attendance. By 1995 Catholic attendance had dropped down to Protestant levels.

This is strong evidence to me that one cannot blame the decline on “the secular culture”, since U.S. Protestants were living in the very same culture as U.S. Catholics, but their attendance hardly dropped at all, and by 1995 was as high as it was in the 50s.

These figures make it clear that something happened in the Catholic world in the 60s and 70s that did not happen in the corresponding Protestant world. That pretty much lets out explanations like TV, kids sports, stores open on Sunday, etc.

---

I agree.

 

[chicago]

The key thing to note here is that Protestant attendance was very steady through the 1960s, 70s and 80s, and actually started to rise in the 90s. On the other hand, Catholic attendance dropped by an enormous percentage between the early 60s and the mid 70s, leveled off for about 15 years and then started to drop again.

In the 50s and early 60s, Catholic attendance was almost double the percentage of Protestant attendance. By 1995 Catholic attendance had dropped down to Protestant levels.

This is strong evidence to me that one cannot blame the decline on “the secular culture”, since U.S. Protestants were living in the very same culture as U.S. Catholics, but their attendance hardly dropped at all, and by 1995 was as high as it was in the 50s.

These figures make it clear that something happened in the Catholic world in the 60s and 70s that did not happen in the corresponding Protestant world. That pretty much lets out explanations like TV, kids sports, stores open on Sunday, etc.

I think that a key to keep in mind is that is it very easy to join many a Protestant community while it is much more challenging to become a Catholic and maintain our way of life. (Jimmy makes a good point about how the Catholic Church has actually held the line and been the voice in the wilderness when it comes to things like sexual morality, amidst the prevailing cultural ideas.) Most Protestant Churches are filled with former Catholics. This can skew the numbers.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I posted this a few months ago and it’s worth repeating here:

Here are some figures from the book “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators”. The first column is the year, 2nd is percentage of Catholics attending Mass, and 3rd is percentage of Protestants attending their services (all USA figures). The intervals are not of equal time spans because that’s not how the data is presented on the graph.

1953 75% 45%
1960 73% 44%
1966 68% 40%
1969 65% 39%
1973 60% 40%
1976 52% 40%
1979 52% 40%
1980 53% 40%
1981 53% 41%
1982 51% 41%
1983 52% 40%
1986 51% 40%
1988 50% 41%
1991 50% 45%
1995 45% 45%

The key thing to note here is that Protestant attendance was very steady through the 1960s, 70s and 80s, and actually started to rise in the 90s. On the other hand, Catholic attendance dropped by an enormous percentage between the early 60s and the mid 70s, leveled off for about 15 years and then started to drop again.

In the 50s and early 60s, Catholic attendance was almost double the percentage of Protestant attendance. By 1995 Catholic attendance had dropped down to Protestant levels.

This is strong evidence to me that one cannot blame the decline on “the secular culture”, since U.S. Protestants were living in the very same culture as U.S. Catholics, but their attendance hardly dropped at all, and by 1995 was as high as it was in the 50s.

These figures make it clear that something happened in the Catholic world in the 60s and 70s that did not happen in the corresponding Protestant world. That pretty much lets out explanations like TV, kids sports, stores open on Sunday, etc.

What’s missing here is the fact that Catholics are under obligation to attend Mass on Sundays, with the threat of mortal sin, protestants are not. So, those protestants who attend services are those who want to be there, and that stayed consistant,(and lets not forget the number of Catholics who joined the protestants, help to keep those numbers up).
Catholic numbers on the other hand, dwindled as those who went merely because of the obligation, stopped, and we were left with the smaller number of those who attend Mass, because they want to be there.

What changed the attitude of Catholics who stopped attending, out of obligation? It wasn’t Vatican II, because Vatican II never removed the obligation.

What did change is the overall attitude of people, which was influenced by moral relatism, which began in the 60’s. Vatican II had nothing to do with this.

People also take more time off from work than they did before Vatican II, are you going to blame Vatican II for this as well?

Jim

 

[VociMike]

What’s missing here is the fact that Catholics are under obligation to attend Mass on Sundays, with the threat of mortal sin, protestants are not. So, those protestants who attend services are those who want to be there, and that stayed consistant,(and lets not forget the number of Catholics who joined the protestants, help to keep those numbers up).
Catholic numbers on the other hand, dwindled as those who went merely because of the obligation, stopped, and we were left with the smaller number of those who attend Mass, because they want to be there.

What changed the attitude of Catholics who stopped attending, out of obligation? It wasn’t Vatican II, because Vatican II never removed the obligation. I am a staunch defender of Vatican II, in case you were wondering.

What did change is the overall attitude of people, which was influenced by moral relatism, which began in the 60’s. Vatican II had nothing to do with this.

People also take more time off from work than they did before Vatican II, are you going to blame Vatican II for this as well?

Jim

Jim, I never even mentioned Vatican II in my post. Why do you project onto me? This isn’t the first time you’ve done this, and it’s getting tiresome. I am a staunch defender of Vatican II, in case you were wondering.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, I never even mentioned Vatican II in my post. Why do you project onto me? This isn’t the first time you’ve done this, and it’s getting tiresome. I am a staunch defender of Vatican II, in case you were wondering.

My apologies for misunderstanding.

However, the discussion was about Vatican II being the cause of decline in Church attendance.

I thought thats what you were attempting to defend, with your post.

My apologies.

Jim

 

[jmcrae]

My apologies for misunderstanding.

However, the discussion was about Vatican II being the cause of decline in Church attendance.

I thought we were still trying to determine the actual cause. I don’t think anyone in this thread has blamed Vatican II. Not yet, anyway.

 

[VociMike]

My apologies for misunderstanding.

However, the discussion was about Vatican II being the cause of decline in Church attendance.

I thought thats what you were attempting to defend, with your post.

My apologies.

OK, no problem. Wherever else we might disagree, we won’t disagree over the validity of Vatican II.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I thought we were still trying to determine the actual cause. I don’t think anyone in this thread has blamed Vatican II. Not yet, anyway.

Go read post #2.

It was the first thing that came up.

Jim

 

[Matas]

Hey VociMike, thanks for posting that data. Your hypothesis that secular culture may not be the root cause of what has happened to Catholics regarding Mass attendance is compelling.

Consider that Catholicism is a much more demanding religion than the myriad Protestant sects. With the growth and proliferation of integrated interstate highway systems, television, affluence, recreational drug use, declining respect for authority figures, etc. (add anything else that comes to mind that didn’t exist in the first half of the 20th century), we’ve experienced a lot of added distractions demanding our time.

In some way, I’m suggesting that Catholics have steadily strayed away from the notion of obedience and obligation, something that devout Catholics must embrace, and replaced that notion with other notions - most of which are grounded in our secular world.

The result is that Catholics resemble Protestants. It’s OK to skip Mass - Jesus still loves me. I don’t agree with the Pope - he’s not a God. I think my priest is a little weird - who is he to tell me how to live? I got 5 kids to feed - who comes first? So I don’t quite agree with you that “something different” happened to Catholics. Rather, Catholics have merely been “catching up” with their separated brethern over the past 50 years.

 

[Matas]

Perhaps this article is relevant to this thread:
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=7767