Declining church attendance [Akin]

[Al_Masetti]

Actually, I thin that the baltimore Catechism was in use through vatican 2; it was after that period when new catechisms came out.

But I do agree that poor or non-existent catechesis has a lot to do with loss of membership.

In my recollection, there were no “new catechisms” that came out after Vatican 2.

The only new catechism is relatively recent AND it’s very complicatedly written. So there was a gap of several decades with nothing at all.

 

[otjm]

In my recollection, there were no “new catechisms” that came out after Vatican 2.

The only new catechism is relatively recent AND it’s very complicatedly written. So there was a gap of several decades with nothing at all.

You may be right that there was nothing produced that was specifically called a “catechism”; there were catechetical materials produced from a number of sources for instructing children and teenagers.

And it stunk.

 

[bobzills]

Vatican II can’t just be the sole reason for the decline of Church attendance.

Why not? The Church has declined drastically in all directions since Vatican II, hasn’t it? I mean giving Holy Communion to homosexuals in drag outfits mocking nuns, how is something like that supposed to increase our reverence and inspire Catholics to attend Mass more often?
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10624

 

[otjm]

Why not? The Church has declined drastically in all directions since Vatican II, hasn’t it? I mean giving Holy Communion to homosexuals in drag outfits mocking nuns, how is something like that supposed to increase our reverence and inspire Catholics to attend Mass more often?
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10624

The Church has also declined seriously since the Cuban Missal Crisis, but that didn’t cause the decline. You need to learn what Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc means. The issue you bring up was not caused by Vatican 2 - sorry, I have read the documents and there is nothing in them that gets anyone to the point of the Communion issue you mentioned.

Nor is there anything in the proper implementation of Vatcan 2 that would get anyone there. In fact, the issue of homosexuality and the militancy they exhibit is a particularly secular reaction, which ahs spilled over into individual parishes; your example only goes to prove the point that it is not due to Vatican 2, but to issues in the secular world that are contributing to the decline.

And as a matter of fact, the Church ahs not declined in all directions. Worldwide, vocations are up. Conversions are up. Hardly an issue of decline.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

Folks:

Can I ask your assistance in not using the thread to whip out your favorite vent and hijack it…those participating would do well to at least have skimmed the article in order to discuss its’ talking points. Thanks for your help in keeping it on track!

 

[THurifer2]

The Church has also declined seriously since the Cuban Missal Crisis, but that didn’t cause the decline. .

Didn’t the cuban missle crisis happen in the same time era as VII?

I remember doing a Thesis on TCMC (mostly on the politics of the bay of pigs) and am quite certain that VII and TCMC shared some dates. In fact VII opened 3 days prior to the cuban missile crisis…which leads me to believe that we have yet ANOTHER thing to blame for VATICAN II.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

The Alpha Course is Protestant - why would anybody want to have it in a Catholic Church?

Firstly , have you ever attended an Alpha course ?
Our parish is currently holding it’s fourteenth Alpha experience and yes it was originally started by an Anglican minister , Rev. Nicky Gumbel…some of the Catholics in our parish have met him in the flesh and he is truly an inspiration to all of us. Interestingly , we have a few protestants attending this current Alpha at our parish and they have been so impressed by our sincere hospitality that i’m sure they are going to go away very blessed and will no doubt inform their friends…and that is why Alpha is spreading around the world my friend !
Let me assure you that our parish priest fully endorses the Alpha course as does our Cardinal…i think you folks are missing out on a unique experience !

 

[ERose]

I believe that alot of people have made good points in this thread for why Catholics are leaving the pews. From these points and some I add here is a list of reasons:

1. Education: Lack of effective instruction concerning the faith from the church today. A good example I have is that there is a Greco class going on at my parish on the Sacraments. The instructor of this class claimed that the church no longer teaches original sin! Blind leading the blind.
2. The Protestantation of Catholics: Don’t need confession, don’t have to go to church, pick and choose what you want to believe.
3. Busier lives. It seems that we today have less time to get everything we need accomplished and it is very easy for people to cut church out of their lives.
4. The church is not preaching: I do not recall the last time I have been preached to at Mass. Preaching is a very important element in my opinion to keep people spiritually moving.
5. False doctrine: similar to no 1 but basically there are so many false doctrines being passed around in church that many many Catholics don’t even know what the Church truly teaches. I once got in a discussion with a former Catholic who tried his best to correct my knowledge by telling me the Catholic church teaches reincarnation!
6. The evangelicals and pentecostals are winning the battle for the hearts and minds of Catholics.
7. Librealization of Societal morals. Too many people telling Christians they are wrong and the Christians do not have the foundation to defend themselves.

Before I post this I like to point out that I did not add Vatican II or vernacular masses to this list. My reason for this is that it is ludicrious to blame these on what is happening today.

 

[ERose]

Now that we have discussed what is wrong with today’s church I would like to propose a question which moderator you may want make this into a complete different thread. I your opinion what can we do to right the ship?

 

[jmcrae]

Firstly , have you ever attended an Alpha course ?
Our parish is currently holding it’s fourteenth Alpha experience and yes it was originally started by an Anglican minister , Rev. Nicky Gumbel…some of the Catholics in our parish have met him in the flesh and he is truly an inspiration to all of us. Interestingly , we have a few protestants attending this current Alpha at our parish and they have been so impressed by our sincere hospitality that i’m sure they are going to go away very blessed and will no doubt inform their friends…and that is why Alpha is spreading around the world my friend !
Let me assure you that our parish priest fully endorses the Alpha course as does our Cardinal…i think you folks are missing out on a unique experience !

How do your Catholic students respond to the idea that everything uniquely Catholic is considered an “add-on” to the “basic Gospel message” as interpreted by Nicky Gumbel? (In case you are not aware, everything taught by the Catholic Church is absolutely essential to our Christian faith.)

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

So they got rid of the Baltimore Catechism and the memorization. And they got rid of not eating meat on Friday. And they got rid of a lot of other things.

And in place of those things, they substituted … nothing.

So we got rid of the memorization and now we have … nothing.

[We did FINALLY get the new Catechism, but it is so complex that ordinary laypeople have a difficult time following it. It wasn’t really written for lay people anyway. It was written so Bishops could write locally dedicated catechisms.]

Someone made the point (that I don’t fully agree with) that the Evangelical and Pentacostal Protestant churches are filled with ex-Catholics. In one discussion with a (former) young Catholic, he was SHOCKED to learn that the words of the Mass are mostly taken from the Bible. He thought the priest made them all up. Besides in Protestant churches they can skip Sunday(s) and it’s not a sin; whereas, skipping Mass without a good reason is a mortal sin for Catholics.

I have never been able to get a priest to explain to folks assembled at Mass what the Lectionary and the Sacramentary are.

When I ask priests to explain Transsubstantiation, they say they can only preach from the pulpit; they are not allowed to teach.

I have only heard ONE priest encourage prayer to the Holy Spirit. [How can Catholics embrace natural family planning or non-contraception without involving the Holy Spirit as an intimate partner in all aspects of their lives?] [That one priest who publicly prays to the Holy Spirit is Fr. Benedict Groeschel.]

More than one cradle Catholic has told me that the Consecrated Host is symbolic. They just don’t know about the Real Presence because they have not been told. They have not been taught. It has not been explained to them.

And I could go on and on.

We used those old practices … the devotions … the Holy Name Society … abstinence from meat on Fridays … and the Baltimore Catechism as the bases of learning the faith. Not the entirety, but a base on which more education could be based.

But now, there is nothing on which to base more education.

The base is all gone.

We could have added Bible study [excuse me …study of Sacred Scripture, a term which few Catholics understand] or Church history, or the lives of the saints … to a base. But the base was abolished.

As Avery Cardinal Dulles once said, the Church has expended millions of dollars for evangelization and has nothing to show for it.

Thanks be to God for Karl Keating and Catholic Answers.

Wow…i find your comments rather disturbing ! Hardly a Sunday goes by without our priest explaining to us the full meaning of the true presence in the Holy Eucharist ; the biblical evidence for the sacrament of reconciliation…ect. ect. I did suggest on another thread that Catholics should purchase Scott Hahn’s , Rome Sweet Home and place a copy in the local library so that folks can learn [from a convert!] what we believe and why ! Keep a copy at home as well…so that the youth will have their searching questions answered by a respected evangelist !
Peace to you all…

 

[jmcrae]

Now that we have discussed what is wrong with today’s church I would like to propose a question which moderator you may want make this into a complete different thread. I your opinion what can we do to right the ship?

If you are confident that you know the teachings of the Church, then get in there and start teaching. Most parishes are desperate for CCD and Sacramental Preparation volunteers - it’s not very difficult to get in. (In fact, it’s frightenly easy.)

 

[Cat]

Now that we have discussed what is wrong with today’s church I would like to propose a question which moderator you may want make this into a complete different thread. I your opinion what can we do to right the ship?

Good question. Just some ideas:

1. Pray. And fast.
2. Consecrate ourselves daily to Jesus, Mary, and to our Church. (Take the logs out of our own eyes.)
3. Each individual should determine which spiritual gifts the Holy Spirit has given him/her, and then get involved with a ministry in your parish that makes use of their spiritual gift(s).
4. Stop judging each other and picking each other to shreds. A nation divided cannot stand.
5. Don’t isolate ourselves. If we are to reach out to Protestants and others, we need to associate with Protestants and others.
6. Give more money. Often, we forget about this very necessary item that the Church needs. But giving cheerfully is something that the Bible admonishes us to do.

 

[pray4peace]

I don’t have any statistics on this, but I think people are getting lazy, and do not take going to Mass seriously. We are such a materialistic society, and so many put themselves first and not God. The Mass and Sacraments are for us, God knows we need them. I think we should pray for our fellow Catholics that have fallen away, and be good examples to others.

Blessings

 

[Pug]

I don’t have any statistics on this, but I think people are getting lazy, and do not take going to Mass seriously.

Maybe your average person who attends mass doesn’t “see” anything from it. They don’t see themselves as any different from their neighbor who doesn’t go to mass, except that they go to mass of course. Eventually they wonder why they are going?

I mean, your average person who is heading toward being the average person who stops going to mass. I don’t mean your average person who is headed toward continuing to attend mass.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

**Folks:
**

• Final request

(see Post 80) – this thread has as its topic the article originating it. Those who wish to discuss other subjects should feel free to initiate a thread in the appropriate forum – or join one already in progress–please do not take this one off track.

 

[Steadfast_love]

It may be Vatican II but I think Jimmy’s explanation is more realistic. I nominate homosexuality as another difficult teaching. It doesn’t affect me as much since I’m Japanese American, but I feel bad for Caucasian Catholics when homosexuals play the race card.

I’m just a Catechumen but from my perspective, the most destructive thing is the jingoism: “preach the gospel always and use words if necessary.”

There’s Life at the core of the church but it’s like walking over spiritual corpses to get at it. Blame it on the Catechism or dyslexia or whatever but I don’t see how anyone can hope to stand in the judgement if they can’t stand up for their faith.

 

[jmcrae]

There’s Life at the core of the church but it’s like walking over spiritual corpses to get at it. Blame it on the Catechism or dyslexia or whatever but I don’t see how anyone can hope to stand in the judgement if they can’t stand up for their faith.

This is a true statement if there ever was one. :clapping:

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

How do your Catholic students respond to the idea that everything uniquely Catholic is considered an “add-on” to the “basic Gospel message” as interpreted by Nicky Gumbel? (In case you are not aware, everything taught by the Catholic Church is absolutely essential to our Christian faith.)

Have you attended an Alpha course ?

 

[jmcrae]

Have you attended an Alpha course ?

No, but a friend of mine went to one - she said the food was good and the fellowship was nice, but the teaching in the videos was at least 70% heretical. After the videos, they tried to correct the heresies, and they used a book titled Catholic Add-Ons to talk about subjects like Mary, Purgatory, and authority in the Church.

We both agreed that anybody can do a food and fellowship thing; why not just ditch the videos and present authentic Catholic teaching? But, apparently, then they would lose their “Alpha” license.