Declining church attendance [Akin]

[Hesychios]

I don’t know if this was covered already, but is there a statistical difference in attendence trends from country to country or by continents? Could attendence be rising in places outside of North America?

What correspondence is there (if any) between Mass attendance and vocations? I know the answer might seem obvious, but I am sure someone has done a study.

The reason I ask is that we often hear of an explosion in vocations in places like Africa. But I know that there is a critical shortage of priests over most of Africa (far worse than North America, even including Mexico), so it seems to me that there should be a shortage of liturgies as well.

Michael

 

[Strevel]

Just my two cents worth:
As a convert to our wonderful faith, we do not have a time or place, even in Mass, where the faith is taught. People do not know when to stand, sit, or stand on their head. Just out of curiosity, when we got to the “mea culpa” part I used both hands…half the pew did as well. …bad sign. We need to have prepatory classes. People that are attending are trying!! We / They are just not understanding nor catching the fullness. Our numbers are converting becquse of “one on one” relationships with outsiders that fill them full of falsehoods as to our sacred whys, and filling them with false info that cause a conversion.

We need to convert ourselves, stop judging others and do the best we can in our own lives. If we have a class taught by Priests and Nuns that teach the faith (to people that attend) we will grow. This IS the Lords Church. It needs to survive inspite of us. We do not need to go the way of Jupiter, and other “Gods” as the Roman world and faith was replaced by us.
Seems to me that there is also less emphasis on learning American history and world history than 50 years ago.

I would also say that the Catholic Church in the United States no longer teaches the Catholic religion.

In fact, one of the reasons for the existence of Catholic Answers is to attempt to fill the void. In my opinion, the average Catholic in the pew used to be very knowledgable about the tenets of Catholicism. (Not everyone back then and not in every aspect; but certainly the average person 50 years ago was more knowledgeable than today’s Catholics.)

In a discussion one day at work, one of the Hindu fellows displayed tremendous knowledge of Catholicism. When asked about it, he said that in India they studied all religions. One of the Catholic fellows then said, “Catholics learn their religion by osmosis.”

So, in summary, in my opinion, attendance at Mass is down because folks don’t know what the teachings of the Catholic Church are because they haven’t been taught by the Church. American Catholics have been put into the “dumb track”.

This will be the BIG scandal of the Catholic Church: that the hierarchy of the Church today has failed in its obligation to teach.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Looks like someone altered my original post; here in #98 is what I wrote back in #25. For the record, I’m a cradle Catholic, not a convert. I did not write the quoted piece shown in #97.

Compare it with what someone posted as a copy of one of my posts … #97 is not what I wrote. #98 is what I posted back in #25.

Just my two cents worth:

A lot of things have been “dumbed down” in the United States over the years.

I’m 65 years old. When I was in high school (a Catholic high school), we had four years of math, three years of science, and two languages (three years each). Everyone in the school got all that.

Seems to me that extensive math, science and language is no longer required; those who want those subjects can choose them, but they are optional or elective rather than mandatory. AND, to make matters worse, students often must decide in grammar school that they want to be in the “math track” or the science “track” when they are in high school. Once out of the “math track”, it is almost impossible to get back into the math track; they will be in the “dumb track”. There is also “emphasis” placed on making math as tedious and boring as possible.

Seems to me that there is also less emphasis on learning American history and world history than 50 years ago.

I would also say that the Catholic Church in the United States no longer teaches the Catholic religion.

In fact, one of the reasons for the existence of Catholic Answers is to attempt to fill the void. In my opinion, the average Catholic in the pew used to be very knowledgable about the tenets of Catholicism. (Not everyone back then and not in every aspect; but certainly the average person 50 years ago was more knowledgeable than today’s Catholics.)

However, and to make matters worse, the forces of something … “modernism”? … decreed that “rote memorization” was bad. So, use of the Baltimore Catechism (which was published in several different levels of comprehensiveness, for students at different grade levels) has been dropped because students were required to memorize the Q&A formatted topics.

In a discussion one day at work, one of the Hindu fellows displayed tremendous knowledge of Catholicism. When asked about it, he said that in India they studied all religions. One of the Catholic fellows then said, “Catholics learn their religion by osmosis.”

So, in summary, in my opinion, attendance at Mass is down because folks don’t know what the teachings of the Catholic Church are because they haven’t been taught by the Church. American Catholics have been put into the “dumb track”.

This will be the BIG scandal of the Catholic Church: that the hierarchy of the Church today has failed in its obligation to teach.

 

[turtleoompa]

Here in our southern california parish the Masses are full. Particullarly during the CCD season. The kids have classes before Mass. This seems to encourage the family to follow with mass afterwards. We also try to have functions to get the community involved such as dinner dances every month which are a blast! Another thing I would suggest to every Parish is to have guest speakers. We have some very special people that have taken the time to schedule a guest speaker such as Scott Hahn and Father Pacwa (EWTN) every few months. Very inspirational. It is up to the parents to set an example and get their kids involved in the Church activities. This will help attendance.

 

[Matas]

Looks like someone altered my original post; here in #98 is what I wrote back in #25. For the record, I’m a cradle Catholic, not a convert. I did not write the quoted piece shown in #97.

Compare it with what someone posted as a copy of one of my posts … #97 is not what I wrote. #98 is what I posted back in #25.

I believe you, Al, because I remember your original post, and am shocked at what Strevel posted. You never wrote what Strevel quoted.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I believe you, Al, because I remember your original post, and am shocked at what Strevel posted. You never wrote what Strevel quoted.

It takes practice to learn how to use quotes from others and mix and match our own thoughts and still keep them separate.

Practice, practice, practice.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

No, but a friend of mine went to one - she said the food was good and the fellowship was nice, but the teaching in the videos was at least 70% heretical. After the videos, they tried to correct the heresies, and they used a book titled Catholic Add-Ons to talk about subjects like Mary, Purgatory, and authority in the Church.

We both agreed that anybody can do a food and fellowship thing; why not just ditch the videos and present authentic Catholic teaching? But, apparently, then they would lose their “Alpha” license.

Perhaps you should try it out sometime so that you can really make up your own mind…that is not to say that i agree with everything Nicky Gumbel says. One of the biggest problems i have is that he says the bible is the MAIN guide for us , whereas we see the CHURCH as the pillar and foundation of truth. TIM. 3:15 ] Otherwise he only loosely follows the protestant line on most issues. He is very fair and fairly often mentions our saints…Maximillian Kolbe , Mother Teresa ect. in a very respectful and positive light. However , the most striking feature of his preaching is the love which flows from his teaching. I do not doubt his sincerity and as christians we should be more tolerant towards our brothers and sisters in Christ ! After all if it helps keep people in the pews , can we complain ? Amazing really…a protestant keeping Catholics in church ! Incidentally , we would never be able to challenge your so-called heresies on our Alpha as we have Methodists attending !

 

[jmcrae]

Incidentally , we would never be able to challenge your so-called heresies on our Alpha as we have Methodists attending !

Why? The Methodists are fully aware that they are in a Catholic Church - why couldn’t you correct the errors, as you see them?

I’ve never seen a Baptist embarrassed to present his own theological views in his own church, even when there were guests present. Why should we be?

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

Why? The Methodists are fully aware that they are in a Catholic Church - why couldn’t you correct the errors, as you see them?

I’ve never seen a Baptist embarrassed to present his own theological views in his own church, even when there were guests present. Why should we be?

I understand where you are coming from my friend…however i have always vowed to myself that i would not be like them !!! I have personally experienced anti-catholic bigotry more than once where i work , but i refuse to try and ’ turn the tables ’ so to speak. However i digress…to answer your question ; the Alpha team are not in a position to correct any errors due to fact that after we show the video , we assemble in small groups [of ten or so] and then discuss the main message of the video. It would be most insensitive to divert from the video topic and attack Rev. Gumbels ’ errors '. In fact the Alpha training we receive teaches us how to avoid inter-denominational infighting at all costs. Alpha is therefore basically an introduction to christianity , however i have personally witnessed veteran Catholics come to know Jesus more personally after having been away on The Holy Spirit weekend , which takes place at the end of the tenth week. I do admire your honesty in stating you have never been on the course. It is spreading all over the world at present…i just hope it takes off in Europe where many churches are empty on Sunday. Peace !!!

 

[TMC]

There are a lot of things that are driving down Mass attendence, but the form of the liturgy is not one of them.

My little church in Virginia is literally overflowing most Sundays. Most attendees are mid-30s to 40s couples with their kids. When I visit my mother’s parish (where I also attended as a kid) it is like a graveyard. The average age is probably at least 60 - no kidding. My sister’s parish is 20 miles from my mother’s, and it is always jam-packed, with all ages.

Why? Well there are lot of reasons, but the main one is the priest. I care deeply for my mother’s priest - he married me - but the guy couldn’t preach his way out of a paper bag. He has gotten a little better in the last few years, but he is still bad. His homily’s don’t relate to the readings. They never relate to the lives of regular folks. He doesn’t seem to have much to offer in that department.

Like it or not the homily has to reach people. It is the only religious instruction that 99% of adults receive. My mother’s priest is a good guy, but he is completely out of touch with life and with regular people.

On the other hand, the priests at my parish and at my sister’s are great homilists. They actually explain the readings! And relate them to life in the U.S. today! They meet with and know well people in their parish, and in the community at large.

Akin suggests (in the article mentioned in the OP) that it may be not “what the Church is doing wrong” but “what the Church is doing right” that drives people away, meaning that the Church’s preaching on divorce, contraception, etc, is driving people out. There may be some of that, but that is not, in my opinion, the main thing. The Church has been saying things people don’t want to hear forever. And why, then, are the very Protestant denominations that are on the rise just as ‘conservative’ on these issues as Catholics?

I submit that many Protestants preach better. Many people come to Mass for the preaching, they want to hear about God, about how to apply the scriptures in their lives, about why Christ’s sacrifice matters in the 21st Century, about how the parables apply to them, personally, today.

Preach and they will come. Meander for ten minutes without making a point, ending with a reminder about the upcoming picnic, and the only people coming will be old folks that stay out of habit.

Just my two cents.

 

[ElectricMayhem]

For what it’s worth:

When did faithfulness become a measurable external activity?
When did the amount of warm bodies present determine effective ministry?

Youth activity does not necessarily mean youth faithfulness. Youth are not sold on membership for membership’s sake. The parish youth calendar has become full of events with a short-term agenda to “get the kids before they leave here or they will get it somewhere else.” The youth of our culture have become a problem to be solved with great lesson plans, outreach nights and programs. We are still stuck in a paradigm that extracts kids from their families, secludes them anonymously in a youth room, and teaches them about community. And we wonder why they do not go to Mass?

I think the kids are keen to us.

A youth-friendly parish is a parish that knows young people instead of tolerating their existence. It is a parish that includes youth in parish programs instead of only asking them to clean up afterwards. It is a parish that provides quality activities that speaks to their hearts as well as their minds instead of just entertaining and occupying them. It is a parish that sees youth as more than free labor. It is a parish that has quality adults speaking up for youth and sharing faith experiences with youth instead of adults supervising them to make sure they behave correctly and do not break anything. It is a parish that views youth’s parents as an asset and not an obstacle. It is a parish that invites youth’s opinions instead of telling them why they should not act or think a certain way. It is a parish that celebrates youth’s accomplishments in front of the whole parish community instead of just a blurb on page 6 of the bulletin. It is a parish that enables youth to experience quality evangelization, catechesis and leadership development so they can reciprocate that in their peer groups. It is a parish that takes into consideration youth in every financial and pastoral decision. Bottom line, a youth friendly parish, like a home, cannot imagine parish life without youth.
But kids have changed over the years, haven’t they?
Attending Mass, saying prayers and not having sex can be part of one’s relationship with Jesus, but sometimes youth may not find the direct correlation between these things and a deepening faith life. We do…and that is why we make them do it. Bottom line, church is a great place to teach young people all about Jesus of history. Adults want youth to be conformed to comfortable instead of transformed by the uncomfortable.

 

[Cathryn]

I don’t believe most Catholics come to the Mass for the homilies. It is nice when a priest is a good speaker, but not that important. When my husband was a protestant he was at Sunday Mass with me, and the priest announced he had a bad sore throat and there would be no sermon, and he went on with the Mass. No groaning from the pews. My husband says, a light bulb went on in his head, and he realized that the homily was not the main reason people were there. He says this would have been a disaster for most Protestant services where dynamic sermons are critical to keeping attendance up.

 

[TMC]

He says this would have been a disaster for most Protestant services where dynamic sermons are critical to keeping attendance up.

Isn’t this my point? I know that many Catholics don’t care about good sermons, if they did they would go somewhere they can get one. My point is that to bring back some of those that have left, we need to be able to reach them with effective preaching.

Lots of priests are good homilists. My impression is that Catholic sermons are improving, so maybe the Church has put more emphasis on this area.

Also, just to clarify, I am not saying this is the only factor in Church attendence, but I think it is an important one.

 

[ERose]

Isn’t this my point? I know that many Catholics don’t care about good sermons, if they did they would go somewhere they can get one. My point is that to bring back some of those that have left, we need to be able to reach them with effective preaching.

Lots of priests are good homilists. My impression is that Catholic sermons are improving, so maybe the Church has put more emphasis on this area.

Also, just to clarify, I am not saying this is the only factor in Church attendence, but I think it is an important one.

TMC I agree with you.

I think that the Church needs to start evangelizing Catholics. Preachers are important to the lifeblood of the church primarily for motivation to follow God’s word.

I know that most (if not all) Catholics do not come to Mass for the homily, but in my opinion it should be one of the reasons to go. The church has not done as good of a job as the evangelicals on producing preachers.

When I was pentecostal, one of the things we used to have were revivals. During these revivals which were usually a week long every night a traveling preacher would come in to preach. Usually these preachers were much better at preaching and inspiring that the local preacher. Maybe the church should have those priests and deacons that are known for their ability to preach travel from parish to parish. Just an idea.

 

[Cathryn]

Personally I think rather than dynamic speakers we need more devotion by our priests to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Catholics wouldn’t leave for Protestant services if they understood what they were giving up. Show devotion, teach devotion, and Catholics won’t walk away never to come back, because someone can preach better.

 

[brittrossiter]

Personally I think rather than dynamic speakers we need more devotion by our priests to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Catholics wouldn’t leave for Protestant services if they understood what they were giving up. Show devotion, teach devotion, and Catholics won’t walk away never to come back, because someone can preach better.

I agree that this would be a giant step in the right direction. And it touches upon what I think is a big part of the problem.

For me, looking back on the 20+ years I was away from the Mass (I only recently returned), there was a very clear and identifiable reason why I fell away: poor catechesis. I had the misfortune of attending a liberal parish and a liberal Catholic school in a liberal diocese in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. I was educated, I guess, in the “spirit of Vatican II.” Consequently I had no knowledge and no foundation to build upon, no conception of what the Mass was truly about, no conception of the Church and its beauty and its history. None at all.

It frustrates me thinking about the years I missed, but I’m so very ***very ***glad to be back.

 

[ERose]

Personally I think rather than dynamic speakers we need more devotion by our priests to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Catholics wouldn’t leave for Protestant services if they understood what they were giving up. Show devotion, teach devotion, and Catholics won’t walk away never to come back, because someone can preach better.

But thats what preaching can do for you. It can help emphasize devotion to the Real Presence. It can do all the things you are asking for.

Have ever went in to Mass and wish that the priest would come out and proclaim that Catholics should not chit chat in the Presence of the Eucharist? Or that Catholics should show more respect to Jesus than to wear skimpy outfits or shorts to Mass? Or emphasize the importance of Confession? etc.

If he did that is called preaching and that is something that we need.

 

[TMC]

Show devotion, teach devotion, and Catholics won’t walk away never to come back, because someone can preach better.

I don’t disagree, but my point is that priests show devotion, and especially teach devotion, through preaching. Everyone supports better catechesis, but where else do you start that, but from the pulpit? The priests need to explain the Catholic faith, and do so in a way that is understood and received by the laity. They have a chance to start doing that every Sunday.

 

[ERose]

I agree that this would be a giant step in the right direction. And it touches upon what I think is a big part of the problem.

For me, looking back on the 20+ years I was away from the Mass (I only recently returned), there was a very clear and identifiable reason why I fell away: poor catechesis. I had the misfortune of attending a liberal parish and a liberal Catholic school in a liberal diocese in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. I was educated, I guess, in the “spirit of Vatican II.” Consequently I had no knowledge and no foundation to build upon, no conception of what the Mass was truly about, no conception of the Church and its beauty and its history. None at all.

It frustrates me thinking about the years I missed, but I’m so very ***very ***glad to be back.

I hate to tell you that it was not in the spirit of Vatican II. Vatican ll was used as an excuss not to follow the teachings of Vatican ll. That is a shame. But I am glad to have you back dear brother.

 

[Cathryn]

I don’t disagree, but my point is that priests show devotion, and especially teach devotion, through preaching. Everyone supports better catechesis, but where else do you start that, but from the pulpit? The priests need to explain the Catholic faith, and do so in a way that is understood and received by the laity. They have a chance to start doing that every Sunday.

A priest can show devotion and teach devotion, including preach without being a dynamic speaker. A priest can do this even in broken English, as is the case with many priests we have.