Declining church attendance [Akin]

[bobzills]

We must remain true to the true Roman Catholic Church and it’s teachings.

What do you mean by the true Roman Catholic Church? It seems that by this you mean the Church as it was before Vatican II?

 

[otjm]

What happened was Vatican II.

If you are going to make a statement that Vatican 2 is the cause of people leaving the Church, please back it up with evidence.

I will be more than a bit surprised if you can; more likely it will be due to things that happened after Vatican 2, that had nothing to do with the documents.

 

[impalass]

Do you have access to the written vactican documents for these new rulings? I’ve never heard of such things. Ever!

For the record the protestant churches ruling, understood in context is identical to Church teaching through out history. Nothing new.

I sounds as if you are really angry at the Church for some reason. Whats really bothering you?

It is not a sin today to miss mass on Sunday.    The catholic church relaxed the law for eating meat on Friday back in 1983.  Where have you been?  Good Friday is now the day that is observed for those not to eat meat and Ash Wednesday I believe.

Earlier this year the Pope (vatican) indicated that protestants are defective people and their churches not real churches. Please google… Pope defective… and learn all about it. Most everyone already knows that. July 2007 the Pope indicated that their is no Limbo and never was…please google… Pope limbo… and learn. Its obvious you have had your head in the sand too long.

Angry with the church?......No.  Just don't believe a lot of what they preach anymore.  Thats why the pews are emptying.

Please check out the information I posted above. Your out of the loop.

 

[Cathryn]

It is not a sin today to miss mass on Sunday.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

 

[jmcrae]

It is not a sin today to miss mass on Sunday.

Not according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)

Also not according to my Bishop.

The catholic church relaxed the law for eating meat on Friday back in 1983. Where have you been? Good Friday is now the day that is observed for those not to eat meat and Ash Wednesday I believe.

We are still strongly encouraged to abstain from meat on all Fridays of the year. Those for whom that doesn’t make sense (diabetics, vegetarians, nursing mothers, etc.) are encouraged to substitute a different penitential act, instead - but Fridays are still penitential in character.

Earlier this year the Pope (vatican) indicated that protestants are defective people and their churches not real churches. Please google… Pope defective… and learn all about it. Most everyone already knows that. July 2007 the Pope indicated that their is no Limbo and never was…please google… Pope limbo… and learn. Its obvious you have had your head in the sand too long.

Neither of these contradict any previous teaching. The concept of Limbo was a theory; not a doctrine.

 

[otjm]

Cathryn, I hear this all the time. I’m not saying its not true, because I don’t know. But I wonder why, then, have the Protestants not experienced the same thing? At the same time that Catholic church attendance was declining, the evangeglicals adn fundamentalists (who are with us on abortion and divorce, if not contraception) were doing fine? Or am I wrong about that?

Yes, Protestants have experienced the same thing.

Some of the things that tend to attract people to the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestant churches are their tendency to be authorative (makes for people in the benches not having to do anything but follow what the pastor teaches); the tendency to be very vocal and specific about moral issues (they are the other source of the pro-life movement), and the tendency to be very vocal about Christ, who He is, and the need to follow Him.

Further, a year or two ago in a Protestant magazine, there was an article about 7 Protestant theologians who were reconsidering their, and their churches stance on birth control, and coming out against it.

However, within the mainline Protestant churches, they have suffered a severe decline in membership and don’t appear to be turning that around.

 

[otjm]

There was war and persecution back then as well and probably at it’s worst (which would account for bad attendance.) The bottom line is Vatican II was brought in by a group of Protestant men to reform the old Roman Catholic Church’s Tridentine Mass and is known today as the Novus Ordo Mass (name taken from the back of the dollar bill-proving it has joined the one global church). The people just accept it without noticing the differences which include loss of faith, family dissention, marraiges falling apart, children in defiance etc… The novus ordo offers no Sacraments to it’s teachings only initiations (very important to realize the differences) Again the bottom line is that obedience is the highest form of worship to God! We must remain true to the true Roman Catholic Church and it’s teachings.

You forgot the Masons…

 

[jmcrae]

You forgot the Masons…

 

[bobzills]

You forgot the Masons…

Were the Masons involved at all in Vatican II? I read somewhere that some of the Catholic reformers were Freemasons, but I don;t know if this was verified or not.

 

[Cathryn]

Earlier this year the Pope (vatican) indicated that protestants are defective people and their churches not real churches.

Nothing about “defective people”, only defective churches that don’t have apostolic succession from St. Peter and that Jesus Christ founded one church not many different churches. If you Google “defective people” “Pope Benedict” you only get the hate sites that have twisted his words to get people angry. The Pope has never called Protestants defective people. Do you believe all the Protestant churches teach the Truth?

 

[impalass]

The Church most definitely does say so. I don’t think you will find anywhere that the Church has said then, before then, or since then that the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday no longer applies. You may have individuals in the Church - lay teachers or an occasional priest - who may have said that, but you need to distinguish what some individual who purports to teach relgion has said, from what the Church says officially. No one has been condemned to hell in 2000 years by the Church. The obligation to abstain from meat on Friday arose at a time when meat was much more a luxury item than a staple. Not observing the rule of abstinence was objectively a mortal sin; but the mortal sin was the sin of disobedience to a Church rule. The rule was made by the Church - it was not from the 10 Commandments - and as such could be dispensed by the Church. Yes, but I doubt people have stopped coming to Mass because of St Christopher or any other popular saint. You need first to read what the Pope actually said; second, you need to read why he said it. You were not taught a lie, but you were led to believe that you were taught a doctrine; it wan’t. It was just the best answer that theologians had come up with concerning the need for baptism and what happens to unbaptized babies. It is a little more complex than you were taught. Now the vatican says it never existed. July 2007 the Pope indicated that protestants are defective people and their churches not real churches. Many of my friends are protestant and not for one moment will I accept the churhes ruling on that! Rediculous!

Again, you need to read what he actually said and why. It is not rediculous; but it is a technical statement.

I can’t speak for the western world, but in the US in 1965 there were 17,637 parishes. In 2006 there were 18,584; so while some parishes have been closed, more have opened than closed; that has to do with demographics. You are right that there are fewer priests.

You said…“I can’t speak for the westen world bu in the US in 1965 there were 17,637 parishes. 2006 there were 18,584”

Facts: 1965 US population 193 million…2006 October 300 million…An increase of in population of over 55%. parishes increased according to your numbers by only 5%.

Study by Pastoral Research centre:

1963-1991 USA Mass attendance down 40%
Baptisms down 50%
Confirmations down 60%
Converstions down 55%
First communions down 40%

1958 Gallop pole USA: 1958 Mass attendance 74%
1965 65%
1994 Study by University of Notre Dame 27%
2000 Fordham study weekly mass attendance 25%

USA: 1930-1965 Priests more then doubled to 58,000
2006 down to 45,000…estimates by 2020 31,000 and more then half will be over 70.

1965 179,954 women in catholic religious orders in the USA
2005, 68,634 and average age is 68.

1965 USA. 1,575 new priests ordained
2002 only 450 " " "

1965 1% of US parishes without a priest.
2006 19% and growing quickly

The topic is "declining church attendance. These factual figures echo that…I love statistics!

Again I am not knocking the church just reporting the facts. Some people don’t like to hear this sobering information.

 

[impalass]

Nothing about “defective people”, only defective churches that don’t have apostolic succession from St. Peter and that Jesus Christ founded one church not many different churches. If you Google “defective people” “Pope Benedict” you only get the hate sites that have twisted his words to get people angry. The Pope has never called Protestants defective people. Do you believe all the Protestant churches teach the Truth?

MSNBC July 10, 2007…POPE…Universal Primacy of the roman catholic church says “Orthodox churches were defective and that ALL other christian denominations were not true churches” because they did not succeed their following from the original church of St. Peter. Can’t be any clearer then that.

 

[impalass]

Not according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994)

Also not according to my Bishop.

We are still strongly encouraged to abstain from meat on all Fridays of the year. Those for whom that doesn’t make sense (diabetics, vegetarians, nursing mothers, etc.) are encouraged to substitute a different penitential act, instead - but Fridays are still penitential in character.

Neither of these contradict any previous teaching. The concept of Limbo was a theory; not a doctrine.

I don’t know of any catholics myself included that was taught that Limbo was just a theory…In grade school the teachers and nuns had us pray for the babies in Limbo. Parish priests use to talk about Limbo as a halfway place between Earth and Heaven. They never told us its just a theory. Come on! My parents and probably yours also believed that there was a Limbo. I don’t really care if there is a Limbo or not. Millions of catholics have gone to their grave believing there was a Limbo…including previous Popes/Cardinals/Bishops/priests/nuns and all other catholics. Flip/Flop!

 

[bobzills]

Again, you need to read what he actually said and why. It is not rediculous; but it is a technical statement.

I can’t speak for the western world, but in the US in 1965 there were 17,637 parishes. In 2006 there were 18,584; so while some parishes have been closed, more have opened than closed; that has to do with demographics. You are right that there are fewer priests.

You said…“I can’t speak for the westen world bu in the US in 1965 there were 17,637 parishes. 2006 there were 18,584”

Facts: 1965 US population 193 million…2006 October 300 million…An increase of in population of over 55%. parishes increased according to your numbers by only 5%.

Study by Pastoral Research centre:

1963-1991 USA Mass attendance down 40%
Baptisms down 50%
Confirmations down 60%
Converstions down 55%
First communions down 40%

1958 Gallop pole USA: 1958 Mass attendance 74%
1965 65%
1994 Study by University of Notre Dame 27%
2000 Fordham study weekly mass attendance 25%

USA: 1930-1965 Priests more then doubled to 58,000
2006 down to 45,000…estimates by 2020 31,000 and more then half will be over 70.

1965 179,954 women in catholic religious orders in the USA
2005, 68,634 and average age is 68.

1965 USA. 1,575 new priests ordained
2002 only 450 " " "

1965 1% of US parishes without a priest.
2006 19% and growing quickly

The topic is "declining church attendance. These factual figures echo that…I love statistics!

Again I am not knocking the church just reporting the facts. Some people don’t like to hear this sobering information.
These statistics are very troubling. Another statistic has to do with marriage annulments.
In 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments in the USA.
In 1989, there were 61,416 marriage annulments in the USA.
This is an enormous increase in family breakups since Vatican II.

 

[bobzills]

Facts: 1965 US population 193 million…2006 October 300 million…An increase of in population of over 55%. parishes increased according to your numbers by only 5%.

Study by Pastoral Research centre:

1963-1991 USA Mass attendance down 40%
Baptisms down 50%
Confirmations down 60%
Converstions down 55%
First communions down 40%

1958 Gallop pole USA: 1958 Mass attendance 74%
1965 65%
1994 Study by University of Notre Dame 27%
2000 Fordham study weekly mass attendance 25%

USA: 1930-1965 Priests more then doubled to 58,000
2006 down to 45,000…estimates by 2020 31,000 and more then half will be over 70.

1965 179,954 women in catholic religious orders in the USA
2005, 68,634 and average age is 68.

1965 USA. 1,575 new priests ordained
2002 only 450 " " "

1965 1% of US parishes without a priest.
2006 19% and growing quickly

The topic is "declining church attendance. These factual figures echo that…I love statistics!

Again I am not knocking the church just reporting the facts. Some people don’t like to hear this sobering information.

These statistics are horrifying. And another troubling statistic concerns the rate of increase in marriage annulments in the USA:
1930: 9 marriage annulments in the USA
1989: 61416 marriage annulments in the USA.

 

[impalass]

Nothing about “defective people”, only defective churches that don’t have apostolic succession from St. Peter and that Jesus Christ founded one church not many different churches. If you Google “defective people” “Pope Benedict” you only get the hate sites that have twisted his words to get people angry. The Pope has never called Protestants defective people. Do you believe all the Protestant churches teach the Truth?

"Do I believe if protestant churches teach the Truth?. I have no idea. But I do believe that my many protestant friends are equal to me. I don’t segregate myself as many conservative catholics do…

I do know that many Cardinals/Bishops/Priests have lied, and covered up for the thousands of church clerics that have had sex with young children. The FBI stated that during the past 20 years over 10,000 catholic priests have molested children…that is very sad. John Walsh from Americas Most Wanted stated these figures on Larry King, I believe it was July 27, 2006.

It also bothers me when most conservative catholics put their heads in the sand when these important issues arise. Transparency leads to the truth. The catholic church is still a long way from that.

 

[impalass]

These statistics are horrifying. And another troubling statistic concerns the rate of increase in marriage annulments in the USA:
1930: 9 marriage annulments in the USA
1989: 61416 marriage annulments in the USA.

The ever increasing marriage annulments is a sad situation. Today the church is more receptive and forgiving then they were in the past. I remember 40 years ago or so, the church frowned on mixed marriages between certain cultures, and for sure between Catholics and non catholics…times are a changin’

Women are more receptive today to the catholic church then men are. Go to any sunday mass and women out number men at least 2-1, and by far most attending are over 50.

The next 10-20 years will be tough for the church. With declining attendance and fewer putting into the collection plates the church will definetly feel the financial crunch that will be coming. Many churches are over 75-100 years old and high maintenace costs will only escalate. Times are tough now but will be horrendous in the future.

 

[Cathryn]

"Do I believe if protestant churches teach the Truth?. I have no idea. But I do believe that my many protestant friends are equal to me. I don’t segregate myself as many conservative catholics do…

If you believe that your protestant friends are equal to you in human dignity and made in the image and likeness of God, then you believe what the Catholic Church teaches. I tend to be conservative and I am Catholic. I don’t segregate myself. The Church has sinners, even in the clergy. The Body of Christ, the Church, is made of human sinners. Christ himself promised to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[impalass]

If you believe that your protestant friends are equal to you in human dignity and made in the image and likeness of God, then you believe what the Catholic Church teaches. I tend to be conservative and I am Catholic. I don’t segregate myself. The Church has sinners, even in the clergy. The Body of Christ, the Church, is made of human sinners. Christ himself promised to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I am not conservative and I don't believe because being born (by the luck of the draw)  into a western culture that is mostly Christian (at this time) is better then anyone else.  I have many Jewish and Muslim friends and to the many other religions throughout the world I again look at myself as being equal.  Most of us were taught only about one religion, never to learn about what the rest of the world is about.  Thats sad.    "I'm right your wrong"  attitude/belief

Teaching world religions in all schools is a much better approach and as people become adults make their own conscious decisions of what they want to believe, not what our parents indoctrinated us into. Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc. the same thing. Lets learn about others and their way of life rather then quoting from the bible that only Christ followers will be saved and all others banished. Whats the upside to saying things like that. The world is only becoming more fragmented every year. THATS VERY SAD.

I have three adult children. If you could turn back the clock we would have not baptized our children as infants. We would have taught them right from wrong and let them decide for themselves whats important to them. This is currently a growing trend among families. Read my post about Baptism statistics.

 

[dallas]

What do you mean by the true Roman Catholic Church? It seems that by this you mean the Church as it was before Vatican II?

Yes, of course not very many around anymore who had first hand experience with the way the church was and should be today. Roman Catholics are bound to the true teachings of the catechism or else they are heretics-they can’t even pick or choose because that would be indiffrentism. Belief and Faith are not the same thing for faith requires action! Believing means you just go on your merry way doing whatever makes you “feel right” of which is one of the 5 senses, of which the ENEMY will trap you with, since that is the only way he can attack us! Thus if we remain steadfast and OBEDIENT (even blindly) we shall remain with the Lord. The things that are happening now to our church coincides with scripture Luke18:8 “When the Son of man comes,will He find faith on earth”?