Declining population

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1. Overpopulation concerns

Overpopulation is only a concern if materialism w/out moral consideration continues to rise (i.e., needless consumerism + irresponsible production). Human beings need extremely little to “survive.” They need only a little more to “live well.” Most of our consumption is driven by a perpetual desire to compete with each other. People try to fill the empty holes in their lives, which frankly only Faith, Hope and Charity can fill. Excessive consumption is symbolic that something is missing or wrong in a person’s life.

2. Breeding v. Evangilization

“Breeding” more Christians is only good if those Christians receive a good evangilization from their parents and pastors; otherwise, the first popular heresy to come along will sweep them all away, and it will be for nothing. The Protestant Reformation is proof of that, and the gateway it provided for secularization is proof of that. Christians can be their own worst enemies some times. No one is born a Christian: we are re-born in Christ and choose whether to accept him and be loyal to him or else not.

But let’s not forget this is not a numbers game. The Church has a mission to save souls; not a quota to fill. The best we can do is keep and defend our Faith while striving to live Holy Lives. Jesus himself said he will draw all men to himself.
 
Disagree, Rome has entire ministries dedicated specifically to the reunification (total) of Christianity. Not just with your protestant folks, but also the Eastern and Oriental folks as well as the more recent schismatics like the SSPX and Sedeprivationism.
But these are not like the early ecumenical councils, where people were willing to truly compromise. The Lutheran Church’s position is that, until Rome can accept the unaltered Augsburg Confession and our other confessional documents, can accept justification by grace through faith, and any number of other things, we as Lutherans are being persecuted and forcibly acting as an exiled body until such time as Rome makes all the reforms that the Reformation demanded.

Rome, from what I understand, does make a few concessions with some groups, such as allowing the High Church Anglicans their own rite, and permitting their clergy to stay married. But then, as far as I know (and please correct me if I’m wrong) the goal is still to, for the next generation of Anglican priests, impose celibacy on them.

In other words, both sides are willing to ‘compromise’ so long as the opposing side agrees unconditionally to everything they believe. My church body is not innocent in this by any means.
I appriciate what you’re trying to say, but I humbly (or perhaps not so lol?) submit you are incorrect… Perhaps not in so much as a birthrate statisic alone, there could be many factors to explain this, but you’re dead wrong in your rejection of Gods plan being acceptable. And in your explaniation that rather than a warped view of sexuality being our problem, that a mere lack of evangalization is our problem.

Our warped views of sexuality is our problem, not only does it cause ramped depopulation, it also hinders evangalization. When we tell people we’re trying to evangalize “oh yeah, by the way you don’t have to pay attention to what God said about sexual morality” it makes our entire effort sound disingenous. Further more, if we allow for the kind of sexual immorality we are seeing today to continue, we will quite simply eventually run out of people. We’ll evenagalize the whole world, the whole world can embrased contraception, abortion et. al., seek sexuality purely in the context of a sensual act rather than a sacramental one and rampent depopulation will continue, only across the entire spectrum.
As usual, you completely misinterpret my comments and put words in my mouth. Looking back on my post, I do not see anywhere that I said I approve of birth control, or that declining birth rates were by any means a good and natural thing. In fact, I said nothing much about sex at all, but rather made a positive, uplifting call to evangelize, which no Christian can disagree with. (see Matthew 28) Quite to the contrary, I am personally opposed to birth control and agree wholeheartedly that an unnatural understanding of human sexuality has contributed greatly to the current state of the Church, both in the US and abroad.

I was simply pointing out the fact that those within the Church (Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, and many others) would rather find external reasons for a shrinking church, condemning the sexual behavior of others and blaming it for smaller and small catechism classes, than take the lead and share the Gospel with their neighbor. I’m not claiming that this is true of everyone, or even most; I’m sure most of those at CAF are very active in their evangelism. I was just making an observation.
 
But these are not like the early ecumenical councils, where people were willing to truly compromise. The Lutheran Church’s position is that, until Rome can accept the unaltered Augsburg Confession and our other confessional documents, can accept justification by grace through faith, and any number of other things, we as Lutherans are being persecuted and forcibly acting as an exiled body until such time as Rome makes all the reforms that the Reformation demanded.

Rome, from what I understand, does make a few concessions with some groups, such as allowing the High Church Anglicans their own rite, and permitting their clergy to stay married. But then, as far as I know (and please correct me if I’m wrong) the goal is still to, for the next generation of Anglican priests, impose celibacy on them.
In other words, both sides are willing to ‘compromise’ so long as the opposing side agrees unconditionally to everything they believe. My church body is not innocent in this by any means.

I think you’re missing the work Benedict XVI has done with your very own faith tradition, going so far as to clarify the constant teaching of the Chruch on Justification in a manner which Lutherans can assent too. Have you heard of the Joint Declaration on Justification? You should look it up. I’m not sure what you’re looking for? Rome to say Luther was justified and that there isn’t error in Protestantism as it exists today?

Wouldnt’ that be the error of pluralism?
As usual, you completely misinterpret my comments and put words in my mouth. Looking back on my post, I do not see anywhere that I said I approve of birth control, or that declining birth rates were by any means a good and natural thing. In fact, I said nothing much about sex at all, but rather made a positive, uplifting call to evangelize, which no Christian can disagree with. (see Matthew 28) Quite to the contrary, I am personally opposed to birth control and agree wholeheartedly that an unnatural understanding of human sexuality has contributed greatly to the current state of the Church, both in the US and abroad.

I was simply pointing out the fact that those within the Church (Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, and many others) would rather find external reasons for a shrinking church, condemning the sexual behavior of others and blaming it for smaller and small catechism classes, than take the lead and share the Gospel with their neighbor. I’m not claiming that this is true of everyone, or even most; I’m sure most of those at CAF are very active in their evangelism. I was just making an observation.
Sorry if I misuderstood your point, but perhaps “far more disturbing than the fact that, as you have said, declining birth rates will lead to Christianity no longer being dominant, is the fact that we believe we must rely on birth rates to advance and grow the Church.” threw me off.
 
Nope I agree with the poster!👍
Okay.🙂

All kidding aside…there is much research to disprove the comments that nhylan has made in his/her post.

Shouldn’t we get the facts before agreeing with someone’s position?
 
Okay.🙂

All kidding aside…there is much research to disprove the comments that nhylan has made in his/her post.

Shouldn’t we get the facts before agreeing with someone’s position?
I agree that the use of condems would help in the sread of aids. I do not agree with the church on birth control. Those are the facts that to me make sense.
 
The article you posted does not suggest that condoms don’t work it suggests that condoms aren’t used enough to stem the tide of aids because people in these countries have multiple sex partners. The article also mentions that condoms have stemmed the spread of aids in other countries. Its a mixed bag basically, you need people in invest in faithful monogamous relationships as well as continued condom use. Faithful monogamous relationships are only part of the solution.
 
The article you posted does not suggest that condoms don’t work it suggests that condoms aren’t used enough to stem the tide of aids because people in these countries have multiple sex partners. The article also mentions that condoms have stemmed the spread of aids in other countries. Its a mixed bag basically, you need people in invest in faithful monogamous relationships as well as continued condom use. Faithful monogamous relationships are only part of the solution.
Are you sure you actually read the article? It laid out the problem very well… If you still have questions, the article gives the name of the study, 5 seconds of googleing will pull it up and it is very clear.
 
Are you sure you actually read the article? It laid out the problem very well… If you still have questions, the article gives the name of the study, 5 seconds of googleing will pull it up and it is very clear.
I sure did, here are some quotes:

"Since then, major articles in other peer-reviewed journals such as the Lancet, Science and BMJ have confirmed that condoms have not worked as a primary intervention in the population-wide epidemics of Africa. In a 2008 article in Science called “Reassessing HIV Prevention” 10 AIDS experts concluded that “consistent condom use has not reached a sufficiently high level, even after many years of widespread and often aggressive promotion, to produce a measurable slowing of new infections in the generalized epidemics of Sub-Saharan Africa.”

“Let me quickly add that condom promotion has worked in countries such as Thailand and Cambodia, where most HIV is transmitted through commercial sex and where it has been possible to enforce a 100 percent condom use policy in brothels (but not outside of them).”

“All people should have full access to condoms, and condoms should always be a backup strategy for those who will not or cannot remain in a mutually faithful relationship. This was a key point in a 2004 “consensus statement” published and endorsed by some 150 global AIDS experts, including representatives the United Nations, World Health Organization and World Bank. These experts also affirmed that for sexually active adults, the first priority should be to promote mutual fidelity. Moreover, liberals and conservatives agree that condoms cannot address challenges that remain critical in Africa such as cross-generational sex, gender inequality and an end to domestic violence, rape and sexual coercion.”

So again, like i said, while the article says that condoms have been largely ineffective in some African countries it says this is because everyone is not using them. To say don’t use condoms is incredibly dangerous.

"All people should have full access to condoms, and condoms should always be a backup strategy for those who will not or cannot remain in a mutually faithful relationship."
 
You do realize, that everything you just posted confirms the point of the news article right? Did you also pay attention to all the text which states very clearly, that in every single instance where AIDS was decreased, there was also an anologous decrease in activity? Or did you miss the parts which state how significantly Thi brothols have been impacted? Did you miss how the only African success story is abstinance only Uganda?
 
The article you posted does not suggest that condoms don’t work it suggests that condoms aren’t used enough to stem the tide of aids because people in these countries have multiple sex partners. The article also mentions that condoms have stemmed the spread of aids in other countries. Its a mixed bag basically, you need people in invest in faithful monogamous relationships as well as continued condom use. Faithful monogamous relationships are only part of the solution.
March 19, 2009 7:15 A.M.

From Saint Peter’s Square to Harvard Square
Media coverage of papal comments on AIDS in Africa is March madness.

‘We have found no consistent associations between condom use and lower HIV-infection rates, which, 25 years into the pandemic, we should be seeing if this intervention was working.”

So notes Edward C. Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies, in response to papal press comments en route to Africa this week.

Benedict XVI said, in response to a French reporter’s question asking him to defend the Church’s position on fighting the spread of AIDS, characterized by the reporter as “frequently considered unrealistic and ineffective”:

I would say that this problem of AIDS cannot be overcome with advertising slogans. If the soul is lacking, if Africans do not help one another, the scourge cannot be resolved by distributing condoms; quite the contrary, we risk worsening the problem. The solution can only come through a twofold commitment: firstly, the humanization of sexuality, in other words a spiritual and human renewal bringing a new way of behaving towards one another; and secondly, true friendship, above all with those who are suffering, a readiness — even through personal sacrifice — to be present with those who suffer. And these are the factors that help and bring visible progress.

“The pope is correct,” Green told National Review Online Wednesday, “or put it a better way, the best evidence we have supports the pope’s comments. He stresses that “condoms have been proven to not be effective at the ‘level of population.’”

“There is,” Green adds, “a consistent association shown by our best studies, including the U.S.-funded ‘Demographic Health Surveys,’ between greater availability and use of condoms and higher (not lower) HIV-infection rates. This may be due in part to a phenomenon known as risk compensation, meaning that when one uses a risk-reduction ‘technology’ such as condoms, one often loses the benefit (reduction in risk) by ‘compensating’ or taking greater chances than one would take without the risk-reduction technology.”

Green added: “I also noticed that the pope said ‘monogamy’ was the best single answer to African AIDS, rather than ‘abstinence.’ The best and latest empirical evidence indeed shows that reduction in multiple and concurrent sexual partners is the most important single behavior change associated with reduction in HIV-infection rates (the other major factor is male circumcision).”

And while, as Travis Kavulla writes from Kenya today, the international media will ignore all sorts of fascinating new stories about church and civilizational growth in favor of a sexier, albeit way-too-familiar storyline, Green has some encouraging news: The pope is not alone. “More and more AIDS experts are coming to accept the above. The two countries with the worst HIV epidemics, Swaziland and Botswana, have both launched campaigns to discourage multiple and concurrent partners, and to encourage fidelity.”

The pope added during that Q&A, “I would say that our double effort is to renew the human person internally, to give spiritual and human strength to a way of behaving that is just towards our own body and the other person’s body; and this capacity of suffering with those who suffer, to remain present in trying situations.”

We need to, in other words, treat people as people. Reason with them and show them there is a better way to live, respectful of themselves and others. It’s a common-sense message that isn’t madness whether you’re in Africa or dealing with hormonal American teenagers. It’s a hard message to hear over the same-old silly debates, parodies, and dismissals. But it’s one that is based on real life—and that’s acknowledged not just in Saint Peter’s Square but in Harvard Square.
 
I agree that the use of condems would help in the sread of aids. I do not agree with the church on birth control. Those are the facts that to me make sense.
Rethinking AIDS Prevention: Learning from Successes in Developing Countries, by Edward C. Green

Last June, the official in charge of UNICEF’s eastern and southern African operations declared that, in the name of AIDS prevention, condoms should be made available “for everybody, everywhere and at all times.” “Let us stop the almost metaphysical debate on the pros and cons of the use of condoms,” he continued, because “the use of condoms . . . has been a part of all known successes to reduce HIV infections.” Such is the philosophy of the international AIDS-prevention establishment: Only condoms can save the world from AIDS, so international funds should ensure that the people of the developing world are ever more securely swathed in latex.

There are, however, no condom “successes” in Africa. Something like 700 million condoms are shipped to the continent, year in and year out, courtesy of the U.N., the U.S., and the EU, yet infection rates remain stubbornly high. The UNICEF official approvingly cites Botswana’s commitment to condoms — “Let us follow the decision of the government of Botswana” — but about 35 percent of that country’s population is infected. That’s the example the rest of the world should follow?

Whenever someone, usually an obscure African churchman, dares to raise such uncomfortable questions, the full might of the AIDS establishment comes down to smite him, and he is condemned as a religious zealot. Finally, though, there is a challenger to condom dominance who cannot be so easily dismissed. He is a distinguished public-health official, a paragon, in fact, of establishment credentials: Edward C. Green, senior research scientist at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies. Green has had an epiphany of common sense and now has the courage to criticize the role of his colleagues as prophylactic missionaries to the Third World. In his important new book, Rethinking AIDS Prevention, he exposes the failure of the condom approach, and explains why AIDS experts cling to this failure.

What happened is that Green’s colleagues inherited the ideology of the homosexual revolution of the 1980s. Green matter-of-factly states that “gay Westerners” tend to be “sexually hedonistic,” that “some in the gay community believe in an ‘anything goes’ sexual expression that takes as a given that sexuality should be expressed and enjoyed to the utmost, and there be little or no worry about consequences.” AIDS prevention was developed for gays, and in many cases by gays; thus, anything that challenged the sexual hedonism of homosexual identity would be out of bounds.

Green quotes at length from one American AIDS expert’s web-posted paean to promiscuity: “Unlike gibbons and some other mammals, humans are not naturally monogamous. Some major religions make polypartnering (having sex with several partners) a sin in order to promote monogamy. However, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with polypartnering. Indeed, polypartnering allows participants to enjoy a greater variety of sexual behaviors, with a greater number of persons, to enhance their lovemaking skills.” Monogamy, on the other hand, is as dreadful as if “religions were to dictate that it was morally wrong for people to eat out at different restaurants, requiring its adherents to stick to one restaurant for their entire lives; or to stick to one movie — seeing the same film over and over again.”

Obviously, such people have a personal interest in ensuring that the basic lesson of the AIDS epidemic — promiscuous sex cannot be made consequence-free — never gets learned. As our “polypartnering” devotee makes clear, “we should not use the HIV/AIDS crisis as an excuse to revert back” to the bad old days of monogamy. And thus enters the lowly condom; it allows proponents of the sexual revolution to trumpet as “safe” risky sexual behavior.

AIDS experts will go to great lengths in order to protect condoms from scrutiny. According to Green, his colleagues have hidden evidence that the HIV virus may be smaller than, and therefore may pass through, the pores in latex condoms. And AIDS experts have denied evidence that traditional sexual morality works — that, where it has been promoted in place of condoms, most notably in Uganda, AIDS has been brought under control. Since risky sex causes AIDS, a significant number of Africans have simply stopped having risky sex. And when governments have encouraged them to do so, to abstain from sex or to be faithful to their spouses, this behavior change has been all the more dramatic.

But Green’s colleagues are not interested, are even hostile, to such news. At the 2002 International AIDS Conference, writes Green, “high-ranking officials from major donor organizations were heard to opine that any such ideas were part of a plot from the religious right. Furthermore, they were heard to say, public health would never yield to right-wing or religious pressure (even if millions of lives could thereby be saved).” Green continues: “But what about Africans and others who believed that condoms were 100 percent effective, used them as directed, and then became infected? This is an ethical issue, a serious human-rights issue. The case could be made that health officials from rich countries have withheld information that would allow people in the poor countries to make an informed choice, a choice that has life or death consequences.”

Green makes the reasonable request that African public-health measures should be designed with the best interests of Africans in mind; most especially, that the schoolchildren of Africa should not be handed a box of condoms, and subjected to a program designed for the clients of New York’s gay bathhouses, but encouraged instead to delay sexual activity.
 
Again, im agreeing that monogamy is important what Im saying is that it is, in general, dangerous to discourage condom use. People make mistakes, people contract sexually tranmissioned diseases and people have sex out of wedlock all over the world. Only in the African issue is it not doing anything. It is a fact, A FACT that condoms help hinder the spread of STDs. Just because it doesn’t work everywhere doesn’t mean they aren’t worth using. Its all well and good to say no condoms anywhere but people make mistakes and wouldn’t you rather, if your daughter or your son was going to have sex out of wedlock, they be safe? Or is the contraction of an STD the price of such a mistake to you?
 
Rethinking AIDS Prevention: Learning from Successes in Developing Countries, by Edward C. Green
Perhaps, in reality, it’s not ‘condoms v’s behaviour’ but ‘condoms and behaviour’.

There was an interesting thread here some time ago on a study of AIDS in Botswana and the oddity that it wasn’t the ‘bar girls’ (who used condoms regularly) who had the highest incidence but, rather, people who had sex, not with strangers, but within particular social groups (traditional in the region). When they had sex outside those ‘trusted’ groups, they used condoms pretty regularly but, within those groups, not at all. This produced the, on the surface, odd situation that the highly promiscuous were less at risk than the less promiscuous (but not the abstemious, obviously).

Meanwhile, there’s a dialogue of the deaf between the ‘hand out condoms’ and the ‘purity’ lobbies.
 
nyhaln,

If one advocates genuine sexual morality, then condoms are obsolete. You see this happening in Uganda, where it is not happening everywhere the UN is telling people to use condoms. In Uganda, the usage of condoms is obsolete, and they have an AIDs crisis which is abating, the only nation in Africa where this is the case.

Laughably, the popular media (particularly MSNBC) still love running stories about how what the Church is teaching the Ugandan’s is dangerous :rolleyes:
 
I’m sorry for going off-topic, but I wanted to respond to Crazzeto’s last post which I think has several inaccuracies.
n Uganda, the usage of condoms is obsolete, and they have an AIDs crisis which is abating, the only nation in Africa where this is the case.
I’m not sure that those three points are accurate. While Uganda did stop condom distribution in 2004, they resumed it in 2006.
avert.org/aids-uganda.htm

The article mentions a concern that the incidence of new infections in Uganda may be rising again. Here is a recent news article:
The HIV/Aids prevalence rate is on the increase as indicated by the population office surveys. The disease has seen an increase by five per cent from 10.9 per cent in 2008/9 to 12.9 per cent this 2009/2010. Mr John Luwa the district population officer says the trend has increased due to many factors such as commercial sex, inconsistent use of condoms, multiple sex partners, sex for survival, alcohol abuse before sex, mother to child transmission and poverty among others.
allafrica.com/stories/201003290750.html

And other counties in sub-Saharan Africa, besides Uganda, saw a decrease in the incidence of HIV.
East Africa has generally witnessed stabilizing or declining HIV prevalence. In Kenya, prevalence declined from 10% in the late 1990s to just over 6% in 2005. Similarly, Tanzania’s prevalence rate diminished from 8.1% to 6.5% between 1995 and 2004. The epidemic in Burundi exhibits divergent trends in different parts of the country, with five times more infections in urban (10.5%) than in rural (1.9%) areas. A similar pattern is found in Rwanda and Ethiopia. Unfortunately, there is new evidence that the gains made in Uganda during the 1990s may be eroding.
berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/essays/hivaids-by-region-sub-saharan-africa-ssa
 
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