Deconstructing Sacrificial Love

[jules208]

From the New American Bible:

Gospel of Luke 14:25-33

Great crowds were traveling with Jesus,
and he turned and addressed them,
“If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother,
wife and children, brothers and sisters,
and even his own life,
he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me
cannot be my disciple.

---

Which of you wishing to construct a tower
does not first sit down and calculate the cost
to see if there is enough for its completion?
Otherwise, after laying the foundation
and finding himself unable to finish the work
the onlookers should laugh at him and say,
‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
Or what king marching into battle would not first sit down
and decide whether with ten thousand troops
he can successfully oppose another king
advancing upon him with twenty thousand troops?
But if not, while he is still far away,
he will send a delegation to ask for peace terms.

---

In the same way,
everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions
cannot be my disciple.”

THE ABOVE REFERENCED SCRIPTURE PASSAGE was the reading for the Mass on Wednesday, November 7 2007. Are there any Catholic Scripture scholars, grounded theology students, or studious religious or laypersons like myself who could help me find the link between the “first” and “third” sections of the passage above? I have sectioned the passage into three parts for the sake of reference and to show what could appear to be a schism in thought. The first and third “sections”, if you will, do not appear at first reading to be related to the second, or middle, portion of the passage.

There may be a simple, ostensible explanation, but I’m sure it is also the stuff of dissertations. I welcome all participants!

Thanks, and God bless!

 

[jcrichton]

From the New American Bible:

Gospel of Luke 14:25-33

In the same way,
everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions
cannot be my disciple.”

There may be a simple, ostensible explanation,
!

***Hi, Jules!

…lets try the ostensible…

Whole, complete, wholeheartedly.

Jesus demands that we come to Him whole. He demands that we place ourselves second to Him, as on the First Commandment. He wants us to remove ourselves from the world in order to become one with Him as He is One with the Father.

In each passage of Scripture there’s a design: preparedness, willing to go the full measure, and diligence. Each instance we are required to study, be resolute, and push forth.

Are we willing to follow Jesus? Are we willing to embark on His quest? Are we willing to let Him determine the path we take and the luggage that we carry?

God Bless!

Angel***

 

[JRKH]

From the New American Bible:

Gospel of Luke 14:25-33

Great crowds were traveling with Jesus,
and he turned and addressed them,
“If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother,
wife and children, brothers and sisters,
and even his own life,
he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me
cannot be my disciple.

---

Which of you wishing to construct a tower
does not first sit down and calculate the cost
to see if there is enough for its completion?
Otherwise, after laying the foundation
and finding himself unable to finish the work
the onlookers should laugh at him and say,
‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
Or what king marching into battle would not first sit down
and decide whether with ten thousand troops
he can successfully oppose another king
advancing upon him with twenty thousand troops?
But if not, while he is still far away,
he will send a delegation to ask for peace terms.

---

In the same way,
everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions
cannot be my disciple.”

THE ABOVE REFERENCED SCRIPTURE PASSAGE was the reading for the Mass on Wednesday, November 7 2007. Are there any Catholic Scripture scholars, grounded theology students, or studious religious or laypersons like myself who could help me find the link between the “first” and “third” sections of the passage above? I have sectioned the passage into three parts for the sake of reference and to show what could appear to be a schism in thought. The first and third “sections”, if you will, do not appear at first reading to be related to the second, or middle, portion of the passage.

There may be a simple, ostensible explanation, but I’m sure it is also the stuff of dissertations. I welcome all participants!

Thanks, and God bless!

Well I have no credentials other than my own good intentions and desire to follow Christ, but here goes:

I will grant you that there does seem to be a disjoint between the various parts but the entire passage relates to rejecting all earthly things and following Christ. That includes both people and things.
In the first section he is refering to our connections to people, including ourselves.
In the second section he is admonishing the crowd to count the cost of following him - To examine themselves to see if they are strong enough.
The third section ties this examination to the need for the renouncing of family as well as posessions in following our Lord.

There may be several explanations for the apparent harshness in the first section where Jesus uses the term “hate”. I know it has always kind of bothered me. My own NAB (copyright 1971) translated it as “turning his back on”.

It may be as simple as a coloquial/usage issue, or a language/term issue between the Aramaic and Greek.

Another possiblility is that he used the term “hate” as an attention getter for the crowds.

Yet another may relate to the familial relationships and responsibilities under Mosaic Law.

In any event we shouldn’t take it as a literal “Hate” in the sense that we mean it today for in that case Jesus would have had to hate his own mother which we know he did not do.

Hope this helps some.

James

 

[jules208]

I will grant you that there does seem to be a disjoint between the various parts but the entire passage relates to rejecting all earthly things and following Christ. That includes both people and things.
In the first section he is refering to our connections to people, including ourselves.
In the second section he is admonishing the crowd to count the cost of following him - To examine themselves to see if they are strong enough.
The third section ties this examination to the need for the renouncing of family as well as posessions in following our Lord.

I understand the first and third parts; we’re to be willing to carry our cross and go the full length in our decision to follow Christ. You gave a good summary of the second section, which is the part that I’m trying to relate to the first and third sections.

So looking at the second section, I can see the connection or analogy between constructing a tower or going to war and our decision to follow Christ, but what does having enough resources to complete the tower (follow Christ) have to do with the fact that it is by God’s strength and grace alone that we persevere in following Christ? It’s as if the section is saying that we have to rely on our own resources in order to follow Christ and that we must know well beforehand all that is necessary for us to follow Christ. If most of us truly knew the depth of sacrifice that is involved in following Christ, we would run away from God, would we not? Instead he leads us, and we have no idea where we will end up, so every moment becomes an opportunity to submit to His will or run from Him.

So how does the analogy of sending a delegation to ask for peace terms relate to renouncing all attachments to people and resources in order to follow Christ?

I truly am stumped by this section of the passage!

Keep going, you’re opening my eyes, James… and anyone else who has a clue. Please specifically address section two; I am interested in a literal understanding of the war and battle preparation analogy and the symbolic application to our ability to renounce all attachment to people and things in order to truly carry our cross.

Thanks!

Jules

 

[JRKH]

Let’s try to put ourselves in the scene and see if that give us some insight.

Great crowds were traveling with Jesus,
and he turned and addressed them,
“If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother,
wife and children, brothers and sisters,
and even his own life,
he cannot be my disciple.
Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me
cannot be my disciple.

---

Which of you wishing to construct a tower
does not first sit down and calculate the cost
to see if there is enough for its completion?
Otherwise, after laying the foundation
and finding himself unable to finish the work
the onlookers should laugh at him and say,
‘This one began to build but did not have the resources to finish.’
Or what king marching into battle would not first sit down
and decide whether with ten thousand troops
he can successfully oppose another king
advancing upon him with twenty thousand troops?
But if not, while he is still far away,
he will send a delegation to ask for peace terms.

---

In the same way,
everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions
cannot be my disciple.”

Jesus had many many people following him around - but did they really follow Him? Did they understand what that dicipleship entailed? Of course not. They expected an earthly leader.

Jesus stunned them with his first statement. Following Him meant turning your back on everything. Now they’re sitting there trying to figure out what he means and he tries to explain about examining yourself to see if you have the resources, the “intestinal fortitude” to be a diciple. The cost he refers to really doesn’t relate to money but rather to costs in friends, reputation, even health and your very life.
I realize that this isn’t the best explanation but I kind of “cross-reference” it to the parable of sowing the field.

It would be easy to see that once Jesus finished this lesson that a number of people left and went home since it would be such a hard thing to hear.

James

 

[jcrichton]

but what does having enough resources to complete the tower (follow Christ) have to do with the fact that it is by God’s strength and grace alone that we persevere in following Christ? It’s as if the section is saying that we have to rely on our own resources in order to follow Christ and that we must know well beforehand all that is necessary for us to follow Christ. If most of us truly knew the depth of sacrifice that is involved in following Christ, we would run away from God, would we not? Instead he leads us, and we have no idea where we will end up, so every moment becomes an opportunity to submit to His will or run from Him.

So how does the analogy of sending a delegation to ask for peace terms relate to renouncing all attachments to people and resources in order to follow Christ?

Jules

***Hi, Jules!

I do not think that Jesus is telling us that we must rely on our own resources to follow Him… as Paul points out, even while we were God’s enemies (due to sin) He sent His Son to rescue us and bring us onto salvation:

“8 But God commendeth his charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time, 9 Christ died for us…” (Romans 5:8-9)

Note, though, that Jesus chose twelve disciples among the people of Israel. Each of them was aware and expecting the coming of the Messiah. And each of them came to Jesus with his own bundle of abilities, belief, faith, and thirst for God. Also, each of them gave of himself in various measures.

But Jesus had many more followers… some that were not truly His disciples but merely people who were enamour with the idea of discovering something/someone new and different… others were seeking a direct corporal reward for their fellowship (St. John 6:22-71); these did not assess their involvement with Jesus–they simply ran like cattle behind those in front of them.

Though it is God that initiates our Faith ( St. John 6:66: And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.), Christ demands that we abide (stay in fellowship) in Him (St. John 15:1-11). This is where our personal resources come in: we must be willing to submit our will to God’s!

Jesus warns that the disciple is not greater than the Master and that the world hated (loathed) Him and they would hate us; He warns that as He, we would be persecuted, put in prison, and even killed (St. John 15:18-20)–this is where we start taking notes and figuring out the cost of the construction: do we follow Jesus and do we have what it takes?

The anology of the war delegation is the same: if I were to set out to war against another kingdom, would it not be wise to gather as much info on the opposite army’s strengths, abilities, armament, resolve? If I were to discover that it would be disaventageous for my kingdom, would it not be expidient to send a peace delagation to attempt to avoid the impending doom?

We must be willing cooperators in God’s Salvific Plan… if we reject Jesus Salvation is not removed from the world (for God is not a man to retract Himself) but we suffer a personal loss with no one to blame for our failure.

We must willingly follow Christ and subjugate our wills to His!

God Bless!

Angel***