Deep down

[lid2]

**Holly Quran

[3/79] It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic office, should say to people: “Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s”: on the contrary (he would say): “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.”**

The more I read the Qur’an, the more it struck me, deep down. I am sure if you read the Holy Qura’n yourself, you will discover that from the beginning of Mankind, prophets have come to their respective peoples. Their mission was to exhort them to worship none but Allah and to lead a life of virtue. The first man Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, as were Abraham, David, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all). We read in the Islamic tradition that over a hundred thousand prophets have preached the Religion of God here. The Holy Qur’an says that there has never been a people to whom a prophet has not come and that all those prophets taught their people the same message. The essence of that message is: Worship Allah alone and do good. The distinction of Muhammad (pbuh) among these prophets is simply that he was the Last Prophet, through whom the Divine Guidance was completed and perfected.

 

[Sam_777]

**Holly Quran

[3/79] It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic office, should say to people: “Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s”: on the contrary (he would say): “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.”**

What if God decided to speak through a human body like when he did that through the fire for Moses in Quran (20:10-13), WHO ARE WE TO RESTRICT HIM FROM NOT DOING SO…

from the beginning of Mankind, prophets have come to their respective peoples. Their mission was to exhort them to worship none but Allah and to lead a life of virtue.

If that theory is right, then we demand a prophet for each generation, including current time, because there are more sinners nowadays than before.

The distinction of Muhammad (pbuh) among these prophets is simply that he was the Last Prophet

I suggest you to watch this film in your spare time or in the weekend:
jesusfilm.org/film-and-media/watch-the-film

 

[Zundrah]

What if God decided to speak through a human body like when he did that through the fire for Moses in Quran (20:10-13), WHO ARE WE TO RESTRICT HIM FROM NOT DOING SO…

If that theory is right, then we demand a prophet for each generation, including current time, because there are more sinners nowadays than before.

I suggest you to watch this film in your spare time or in the weekend:
jesusfilm.org/film-and-media/watch-the-film

What do you mean by Soul; christian - Flesh; muslim?
Are you asian?

 

[GraceDK]

**Holly Quran

[3/79] It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic office, should say to people: “Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s”: on the contrary (he would say): “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.”**

The more I read the Qur’an, the more it struck me, deep down. I am sure if you read the Holy Qura’n yourself, you will discover that from the beginning of Mankind, prophets have come to their respective peoples. Their mission was to exhort them to worship none but Allah and to lead a life of virtue. The first man Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, as were Abraham, David, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all). We read in the Islamic tradition that over a hundred thousand prophets have preached the Religion of God here. The Holy Qur’an says that there has never been a people to whom a prophet has not come and that all those prophets taught their people the same message. The essence of that message is: Worship Allah alone and do good. The distinction of Muhammad (pbuh) among these prophets is simply that he was the Last Prophet, through whom the Divine Guidance was completed and perfected.

Dear Lid.
How are you?

I used to have nothing against Islam. I used to say: “We all worship the same God”.
Then I started reading the Koran and Ahadith and I found two main things:

1)Koran is in opposion to the Truth that God revealed before Muhammed lived. That includes being in contrast to the person of Jesus Christ, His words and identity and His Truth as written by the people that followed Him. When I read the Bible I am struck with the beauty wonder and GOODNESS of Christ. This holiness and goodness is nowhere in the Koran.

1. The more I read the Koran I noticed that your god, allah, is not morally adequate and his prophet was a huge sinner who did not repent. He is not trustworthy.
   In the New Testament its written: The crowds listened to Jesus because He taught like someone with authority and He had compassion… and He performed miracles.
   Muhammed was a man who openly and blatantly sinned, could not even perform one miracle, and he took his followers into a primitive and harsh law-system that has nothing in common with Christ.

The more I read Koran, the more I see how Islam has not understood that God is Holy and God is Father. The Bible says: “God is LOVE” and “Christ is our Peace”.

I am sorry to say this so bluntly. I have nothing against your person. As a Christian I believe in your personal freedom to say, think and believe what you want but I do believe you are in darkness and you should humbly ask God: Who is Isa, really!?

Salam to you

 

[GraceDK]

What do you mean by Soul; christian - Flesh; muslim?
Are you asian?

Sam lives in Saudi Arabia… one of the top-countries when it comes to persecution of Christians. If he openly denies Islam he will probably loose his life, being sentenced to death accordning to muslim sharia-law that univocally declares: “Whoever changes his religion (away from islam: kill him”.
Sam is a secret believer in Christ.

Islam does not accept religious freedom. It’s a totalitarian ideology on the side of communism and nazism, which kills or supresses its critics. The sooner the Christians understand this, the better.

Peace

 

[Eucharisted]

I’ve read the Qu’ran too. Guess what? It’s not from God. God would know the historical fact that Jesus was crucified, which has historical documents - nonChristian historical documents as well as the four Gospels - as evidence. God would also know that God said in the Bible God’s Name is YHWH - especially since in the Qu’ran God said the Bible is inspired by God. Since God did not know that Jesus was crucified, nor knew what God had said in the Bible, it seems to me the one who revealed the Qu’ran to Mohammed is not God.

Historical evidence of Jesus’ crucifixion: westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm

In Exodus 3:14-15, God’s Name is YHWH (“I AM”): vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P1K.HTM

Qu’ran 4:157 says Jesus was not crucified: usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html

Qu’ran 3:3 says the Bible is inspired by God: usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html

 

[jakasaki]

**Holly Quran

[3/79] It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic office, should say to people: “Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s”: on the contrary (he would say): “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.”**

The more I read the Qur’an, the more it struck me, deep down. I am sure if you read the Holy Qura’n yourself, you will discover that from the beginning of Mankind, prophets have come to their respective peoples. Their mission was to exhort them to worship none but Allah and to lead a life of virtue. The first man Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, as were Abraham, David, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all). We read in the Islamic tradition that over a hundred thousand prophets have preached the Religion of God here. The Holy Qur’an says that there has never been a people to whom a prophet has not come and that all those prophets taught their people the same message. The essence of that message is: Worship Allah alone and do good. The distinction of Muhammad (pbuh) among these prophets is simply that he was the Last Prophet, through whom the Divine Guidance was completed and perfected.

6-114
Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - **when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” **They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

41-3
A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur’an in Arabic, for people who understand.

3-7
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, **but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. **And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” **and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. **

I’ve read the koran way to many times it’s a bunch of mumbo-jumbo verses.

First 2 verses I posted clearly states the koran verses are explained in detail - and the last verse states no one knows it’s hidden meanings except allah. And let’s not forget the line where it states “a koran in Arabic for people who understand”.

So much for islam is for people(s) all nation(s). - Apparently allah just wanted to keep the koran in Arabic speaking lands but it seems mohamad got allahs message wrong.

Perhaps you should read the Old and New Testament and compare the books to the koran. There is a BIG difference of how mohamad and the authors of the koran messed Biblical accounts up.

And besides, you all know the koran was physically compiled onto paper and book form way after mohamads death. Too many versions out there and the last one is Uthmans.

I wonder which copy of the “koran tablet” is with allah?

 

[Zundrah]

Sam lives in Saudi Arabia… one of the top-countries when it comes to persecution of Christians. If he openly denies Islam he will probably loose his life, being sentenced to death accordning to muslim sharia-law that univocally declares: “Whoever changes his religion (away from islam: kill him”.
Sam is a secret believer in Christ.

Islam does not accept religious freedom. It’s a totalitarian ideology on the side of communism and nazism, which kills or supresses its critics. The sooner the Christians understand this, the better.

Peace

What do you mean by “the sooner the christians understand this, the better”. What can we do? Arabia despises the western culture, it is impossible to “open their eyes” as such. They will never come away from their violent culture.
Unfortunately I don’t know how Europe could ever help this horricfic situation.:snowing:

 

[dzheremi]

Hmmm. Rather than read the Qur’an, I will talk to my Muslim and Arab friends. I still can’t read Arabic very well, or rather, I guess I can read it but I don’t know what I’m saying (like the majority of the world’s Muslims, I guess). So it’s better to ask them. Some don’t like to talk about religion, but the ones that do have told me some interesting things that make it clear that Islam is not for me.

But all of this talk about West vs. East regarding Saudi culture…I don’t know, my friends. If Sam is a Saudi and my friend Meedo (not the Meedo that posts here) is a Saudi and my friend Fouaz is a Saudi…well, they certainly can’t all hate “freedom” and Christians. What separates Sam from the average Saudi on the street is his life in Christ, right? And that is real freedom that the government cannot take away! So who can say Saudis hate freedom just because they are under a bad regime and very little access to the non-Muslim world due to cultural constraints? It bothers me sometimes to hear this talk…let’s not forget, after all, that the Middle East brought Christianity to us in the West, not the other way around! Christianity was also in what is now Saudi (in Najran, near the border with Yemen) before many places in the West…long, long before.

The West needs evangelization, too y’know…that’s something Europe and America could each due for themselves, if we’re going to personify nations.

 

[GraceDK]

What do you mean by “the sooner the christians understand this, the better”. What can we do? Arabia despises the western culture, it is impossible to “open their eyes” as such. They will never come away from their violent culture.
Unfortunately I don’t know how Europe could ever help this horricfic situation.:snowing:

Arabia despises some of the western culture, true. Just like we despise some of theirs… like the public execution sights where Muslims go and see people get executed and maimed after friday prayer, or the acceptance of maltreatment and supression of women in all of the Arab countries.

But are you not a Christian? How can you say “They will never come away from their violent culture”.
This is th problem… I dare say, that Christians have lost faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. We have something they dont have. I will point out that China and Africa are becoming Christian continents through preaching and miracles of mainly Evangelical groups who are really led by the Holy Spirit.
When I go into Mass then I see the crippled walk in, bowed down, and when the Mass is over they walk out, still crippled. No one spoke to them, no one spoke with power and prophesy, no one layed hands on them as a congregation and prayed for their healing and expected to see a miracle… look in Acts… Our congregations have stiffled in form… if the Spirit left us, would we notice?.
.
The world will be changed through believers who are full of Spirit and truth… not intellectual rationalists who have never seen a miracle and who dont believe in miracles.
The crowds that came to the Eucharistic banquet of Jesus did so because they saw His works. There then, He could feed them bread and fish, and He taught them so they in turn could go and preach.
Many of our churches in Europe have lost the sap… and American Catholics are preoccupied with writing books about Mary and fighting off fundamentalists… instead of going out preaching the Word. Nothing would so convince the Evangelicals of God’s favour on us than if they saw a church full of life, fellowship and wonders.

Saudi Arabia will be saved… its already happening. The people are having visions and dreams about Christ. Hopefully when they are ready they will come and tell the Western world: “Wake UP, because JESUS is Alive!”

 

[GraceDK]

But all of this talk about West vs. East regarding Saudi culture…I don’t know, my friends. If Sam is a Saudi and my friend Meedo (not the Meedo that posts here) is a Saudi and my friend Fouaz is a Saudi…well, they certainly can’t all hate “freedom” and Christians. What separates Sam from the average Saudi on the street is his life in Christ, right? And that is real freedom that the government cannot take away! So who can say Saudis hate freedom just because they are under a bad regime and very little access to the non-Muslim world due to cultural constraints? It bothers me sometimes to hear this talk…let’s not forget, after all, that the Middle East brought Christianity to us in the West, not the other way around! Christianity was also in what is now Saudi (in Najran, near the border with Yemen) before many places in the West…long, long before.

The West needs evangelization, too y’know…that’s something Europe and America could each due for themselves, if we’re going to personify nations.

Jewish believers in Jesus the Messiah were the first and most powerful witnesses. Sadly the Middle East was run over by islamic warriors in the 6th and 7th century and since then it has been caught in a darkness of silence and to this day its populations struggle with an religious ideology, Islam, that wants to dominate all aspects of life of all people, even the ones who don’t believe in the god of Muhammad.
I have muslim and arab friends too… people that I love, people that I prayed with and for. But it does not mean I will say there is no problem. On the contrary, I ever more long for the time when these people are set free from slavery and discover their true identity as children of the Heavenly Father, called to laughter, freedom and love and not to another law which is even more barbaric and hostile to human dignity than any other.
I come from Denmark. The legislation here is pro abortion. You can then say rightly that Denmark allows killing of the unborn… Denmark is guilty.
Likewise saudiarabia is guilty of barbarian punishments and torture and persecution because its their very justice system… the sharia law.
If you want to be loving and tolerant then I beg you to look at how the Christians all over the middle east are martyred and persecuted these years under Muslim rule. Its too cheep for us in the Western world to be tolerant and friendly while our brethren are being killed and whipped like Christ in the world of allah.

Peace

 

[Zundrah]

Arabia despises some of the western culture, true. Just like we despise some of theirs… like the public execution sights where Muslims go and see people get executed and maimed after friday prayer, or the acceptance of maltreatment and supression of women in all of the Arab countries.

But are you not a Christian? How can you say “They will never come away from their violent culture”.
This is th problem… I dare say, that Christians have lost faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. We have something they dont have. I will point out that China and Africa are becoming Christian continents through preaching and miracles of mainly Evangelical groups who are really led by the Holy Spirit.
When I go into Mass then I see the crippled walk in, bowed down, and when the Mass is over they walk out, still crippled. No one spoke to them, no one spoke with power and prophesy, no one layed hands on them as a congregation and prayed for their healing and expected to see a miracle… look in Acts… Our congregations have stiffled in form… if the Spirit left us, would we notice?.
.
The world will be changed through believers who are full of Spirit and truth… not intellectual rationalists who have never seen a miracle and who dont believe in miracles.
The crowds that came to the Eucharistic banquet of Jesus did so because they saw His works. There then, He could feed them bread and fish, and He taught them so they in turn could go and preach.
Many of our churches in Europe have lost the sap… and American Catholics are preoccupied with writing books about Mary and fighting off fundamentalists… instead of going out preaching the Word. Nothing would so convince the Evangelicals of God’s favour on us than if they saw a church full of life, fellowship and wonders.

Saudi Arabia will be saved… its already happening. The people are having visions and dreams about Christ. Hopefully when they are ready they will come and tell the Western world: “Wake UP, because JESUS is Alive!”

Calm down, I am awake… I have watched dvds during bible studies about people over there dreaming about Jesus. It is very obvious that they are not blind to christ - rather they know and that is why they deny & despise even more.
As for churches writing books rather than preaching - THAT IS ALSO TRUE.
But you are wrong to say that christians have lost their faith.
I can tell you now that there are more protestent missionarys in arabia then there are catholics. But that is not the point! The problem is that I don’t mind if it is a catholic or protestent preaching there - but you do seem to care? Tell me why, because as far as I know all arabia needs is christ. So what does it matter whether they are catholic or not?
Christians have no smaller faith than catholics. As far as I know, we are preaching the same message; “Christ has paid for your sins, turn to him now. e.c.t…”

 

[dzheremi]

Zundrah, Catholics are Christians, so there is no division as when you say “Christians have no smaller faith than Catholics”.

 

[GraceDK]

Calm down, I am awake… I have watched dvds during bible studies about people over there dreaming about Jesus. It is very obvious that they are not blind to christ - rather they know and that is why they deny & despise even more.
As for churches writing books rather than preaching - THAT IS ALSO TRUE.
But you are wrong to say that christians have lost their faith.
I can tell you now that there are more protestent missionarys in arabia then there are catholics. But that is not the point! The problem is that I don’t mind if it is a catholic or protestent preaching there - but you do seem to care? Tell me why, because as far as I know all arabia needs is christ. So what does it matter whether they are catholic or not?
Christians have no smaller faith than catholics. As far as I know, we are preaching the same message; “Christ has paid for your sins, turn to him now. e.c.t…”

I am not aware how many Catholic and Evangelical missionaries are in the Middle East. To my knowlege neither do you, for the simple reason that many of these people are not openly missionaries. But if you speak about Saudi Arabia then there are next to none. there is only Christ with His angels and saints.
My point was not a criticism of Evangelicalism. On the contrary. You could see it as a rocognition. It saddens me that many Catholic parishes dont give enough room for the Holy Spirit’s miracles. I see charismatic christianity as the way forward… unlike liberal theology which makes Christianity into a dry philosophy. Such are the Christians that I mean have lost their faith… they gather on sundays without expectation and go home unchanged… They have lost the zeal to change the world, because their fire has gone out This is sad…
lastly.
As my brother said Catholics are Christians. Just like a protestant is also a Christian and so is a Messianic Jew or and Orthodox…

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah, Catholics are Christians, so there is no division as when you say “Christians have no smaller faith than Catholics”.

NOOB! - By christian compared to catholics I obviously mean protestents compared to catholics!
As in the difference in doctrines taught by the church!

 

[Zundrah]

I am not aware how many Catholic and Evangelical missionaries are in the Middle East. To my knowlege neither do you, for the simple reason that many of these people are not openly missionaries. But if you speak about Saudi Arabia then there are next to none. there is only Christ with His angels and saints.
My point was not a criticism of Evangelicalism. On the contrary. You could see it as a rocognition. It saddens me that many Catholic parishes dont give enough room for the Holy Spirit’s miracles. I see charismatic christianity as the way forward… unlike liberal theology which makes Christianity into a dry philosophy. Such are the Christians that I mean have lost their faith… they gather on sundays without expectation and go home unchanged… They have lost the zeal to change the world, because their fire has gone out This is sad…
lastly.
As my brother said Catholics are Christians. Just like a protestant is also a Christian and so is a Messianic Jew or and Orthodox…

As with most of these threads, there are some things I never understand. Like this for instance, you said; “Such are the Christians that I mean have lost their faith… they gather on sundays without expectation and go home unchanged… They have lost the zeal to change the world, because their fire has gone out” So what exactly are you saying? Are you talking about protestent churches as a whole or what? Or are you including the catholics churches too? Probably not…as you are bias.
At the end of the day it is not the building that makes the place a church. It is the people in it. So you can’t subject one type of church to accusations of “lost faith”.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking that you are penalising the protestent church as the only one to be loosing faith. But I know plenty of people who have left the catholic church because of lost trust in the priest e.c.t But that is not the point. What I’m saying is - each individual person is either low in faith or high in faith - not a church as a whole.

 

[East_Anglican]

**Holly Quran

[3/79] It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic office, should say to people: “Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s”: on the contrary (he would say): “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.”**

The more I read the Qur’an, the more it struck me, deep down. I am sure if you read the Holy Qura’n yourself, you will discover that from the beginning of Mankind, prophets have come to their respective peoples. Their mission was to exhort them to worship none but Allah and to lead a life of virtue. The first man Adam (pbuh) was a prophet, as were Abraham, David, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all). We read in the Islamic tradition that over a hundred thousand prophets have preached the Religion of God here. The Holy Qur’an says that there has never been a people to whom a prophet has not come and that all those prophets taught their people the same message. The essence of that message is: Worship Allah alone and do good. The distinction of Muhammad (pbuh) among these prophets is simply that he was the Last Prophet, through whom the Divine Guidance was completed and perfected.

I’ve read The Quran and I came to the conclusion that much was plaigerized from The Bible, Mohammed met some very strange Christians in his life and The Quran is full of waffle.

 

[GraceDK]

As with most of these threads, there are some things I never understand. Like this for instance, you said; “Such are the Christians that I mean have lost their faith… they gather on sundays without expectation and go home unchanged… They have lost the zeal to change the world, because their fire has gone out” So what exactly are you saying? Are you talking about protestent churches as a whole or what? Or are you including the catholics churches too? Probably not…as you are bias.
At the end of the day it is not the building that makes the place a church. It is the people in it. So you can’t subject one type of church to accusations of “lost faith”.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking that you are penalising the protestent church as the only one to be loosing faith. But I know plenty of people who have left the catholic church because of lost trust in the priest e.c.t But that is not the point. What I’m saying is - each individual person is either low in faith or high in faith - not a church as a whole.

Is it because I am signed as “Catholic Christian” that you can’t see what I am saying?
I am biased? How so? For describing what I see and experience? And yes, my criticism was directed at my own Church, more precisely at many Catholic parishes in Europe. You still call me biased?
Did you expect me to slander the Protestants, since my words confuse you thus?
And by the way, I believe I am not penalising the Catholic Church. The whole of the Body of Christ is threatened from the inside and from the outside. If I refused to admit this, then you could rightly say that I did not love the Church. How can we help ourselves and others when we refuse to see the wounds?

Peace to you now…

 

[Booklover]

As with most of these threads, there are some things I never understand. Like this for instance, you said; “Such are the Christians that I mean have lost their faith… they gather on sundays without expectation and go home unchanged… They have lost the zeal to change the world, because their fire has gone out” So what exactly are you saying? Are you talking about protestent churches as a whole or what? Or are you including the catholics churches too? Probably not…as you are bias.
At the end of the day it is not the building that makes the place a church. It is the people in it. So you can’t subject one type of church to accusations of “lost faith”.

Maybe I am wrong in thinking that you are penalising the protestent church as the only one to be loosing faith. But I know plenty of people who have left the catholic church because of lost trust in the priest e.c.t But that is not the point. What I’m saying is - each individual person is either low in faith or high in faith - not a church as a whole.

You most certainly misundertstood what she posted! Maybe I’m wrong, but you’re still coming on as if Catholics are not Christians! I know there are Protestants who do not regard us as such. I had a lady tell me once that “she used to be Catholic, but now she’s Christian!” You also seem to think that a “church” is not important, in other words, pick and choose what you want to believe and follow Christ in “your own way”. But how can you be sure that you’re following him the way He wants?

Vickie

 

[Zundrah]

Well, Booklover and GraceDK,
I just read through the thread again and I realised that actually I was going completely off course! I can’t believe how mad I must have been to write those post. But any way I think I must have been stressed or something… Sorry. I still don’t get what you’re saying though. Are you saying that the church just doesn’t get up and go out into the world any more? That we just go to church and attend service without thinking how we could spread the gosple to the world other than the country we sit in?

Is that nearly there?
I’m sorry if I said anything that offended you. I do actually go to a catholic church too just not for sunday service… I want to become catholic but I’m having conflictions…:bible1:
Sorry again. Can we come to an understanding some how?