Deeply hurt by the Elections

[Robert_Caritas]

You know you are wicked when one of Satan’s children calls you wicked

Let me be clear (HAHAHA) - I do not support abortion. I would like to end this culture of death. I feel that we should spend the money teaching kids why abortion is wrong instead of incarcerating them.

Don’t listen to me I’m one of those weird idealist guys who thinks it is humanly possible to follow God’s Law without threat of jail.

As for throwing the doctors in jail - if I was a doctor who knew a woman was going to abort illegaly with a hangar… let me ask you this what would you do?

I couldn’t kill the baby but I surely couldn’t let her do it on her own…what do you do?

I don’t understand why you keep bringing up jail. That seems to be another conversation, as well as a side argument.

Women who are going to try to pierce their amniotic sack with a piece of metal probably need mental and psychological support. They are probably very desperate and in a very unbalanced state. There is a real risk of death when attempting such a procedure. Heavy bleeding can occur, and before antibiotics were so widespread there was a bad risk of deadly infection. What kind of pressure and problems would make someone want to risk such a terrible death? The pressure is the bigger problem than the baby in my view.

I once saw an interview with a woman who did this to herself and almost died. I don’t think she saw it as a life inside of her, but as a big problem that would get her in a lot of trouble. She didn’t express any regret for her act, which is strange as she almost died. She saw herself as a victim of the system I think.

So in my limited view, these women are under tremendous pressure (from their own perception or their environment), have skewed thinking as to what a pregnancy is, and so need other kinds of help than an abortion. I think that people in the Church have started opening pregnancy centers that can deliver this kind of guidance and support, though I don’t know much about them.

Maybe like someone who is at risk of committing suicide, someone who is dead-set on aborting with a hanger should be restrained until she is not a harm to herself. Though I’m no psychiatrist or expert.

 

[Robert_Caritas]

Fasting, alms giving, and prayer - spiritually speaking, it is like taking a gun to a knife fight. The more of us that do this, the faster the country will turn back to Christ. I’ll tell you what is a total blast - watching the effects of these three efforts on those around you. Our family members are turning to God - something that I would never ever ever ever have guessed would happen.

I agree very much, though the weaponry image is a bit of an unfortunate choice. I need to learn how to fast, or at least have the courage to do it. How do you feel it affects you during a busy work day?

I’m sometimes afraid of doing an act of mortification or penance because it could have a bad effect in practical terms. Like by giving up a meal I could feel tired and be less productive. But most of the time besides being spiritually beneficially they actually have a positive effect.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

I don’t understand why you keep bringing up jail. That seems to be another conversation, as well as a side argument.

Women who are going to try to pierce their amniotic sack with a piece of metal probably need mental and psychological support. They are probably very desperate and in a very unbalanced state. There is a real risk of death when attempting such a procedure. Heavy bleeding can occur, and before antibiotics were so widespread there was a bad risk of deadly infection. What kind of pressure and problems would make someone want to risk such a terrible death? The pressure is the bigger problem than the baby in my view.

I once saw an interview with a woman who did this to herself and almost died. I don’t think she saw it as a life inside of her, but as a big problem that would get her in a lot of trouble. She didn’t express any regret for her act, which is strange as she almost died. She saw herself as a victim of the system I think.

So in my limited view, these women are under tremendous pressure (from their own perception or their environment), have skewed thinking as to what a pregnancy is, and so need other kinds of help than an abortion. I think that people in the Church have started opening pregnancy centers that can deliver this kind of guidance and support, though I don’t know much about them.

Maybe like someone who is at risk of committing suicide, someone who is dead-set on aborting with a hanger should be restrained until she is not a harm to herself. Though I’m no psychiatrist or expert.

You are missing the point. Making something illegal implies people are going to do it and be thrown in jail for it.

If it were illegal and no doctor could perform the procedure there would be women taking drugs and aborting illegally. You will not know their intentions because they will have no reason to tell anyone. They will just do it. Not to mention born-alive babies that are victims of failed abortion. That is the first thing we need to put an end to. If abortion were underground I would think it would become more common but I don’t know a lot about it.

I think we should just suspend or maybe even revoke the doctors license to practice if they abort. Making things illegal tends to be harmful regardless of the evil that is being made illegal.

edit: even doing that will cause problems though. Education is the answer. Also the state should never support it in anyway. Let alone a teacher wow.

 

[in_servitude]

You are missing the point. Making something illegal implies people are going to do it and be thrown in jail for it.

It’s more than that - laws require force to enforce them.

When it comes to abortion, I disagree and do think it should be illegal.

Try this point - making something legal also has ramifications. When something is legal, then there is a protection mechanism missing for people who would otherwise not begin to think why this is something wrong to do. Sadly, the legality of abortion leads people into the ditch, spiritually speaking. Later, many people learn that what they did was terribly wrong, and have to carry a large cross.

So… then it becomes a trade-off. The implications for having it be illegal compared to the implications for having it be legal.

 

[BluesPicker]

You know you are wicked when one of Satan’s children calls you wicked

Let me be clear (HAHAHA) - I do not support abortion. I would like to end this culture of death. I feel that we should spend the money teaching kids why abortion is wrong instead of incarcerating them.

Don’t listen to me I’m one of those weird idealist guys who thinks it is humanly possible to follow God’s Law without threat of jail.

As for throwing the doctors in jail - if I was a doctor who knew a woman was going to abort illegaly with a hangar… let me ask you this what would you do?

I couldn’t kill the baby but I surely couldn’t let her do it on her own…what do you do?

Ugh,  granted that makes sense.   Before abortion was legalized, the one performing the abortion was prosecuted or "thrown in jail."   If it was a woman performing an abortion on herself  with a wire "coat hanger"  it was her.   If it was a doctor is was him.  Women could go to Mexico to have that procedure done (hopefully not with a "coat hanger" & by a medical doctor)  and they were not prosecuted upon return.    Probably  they weren't advertising this.  And  I put quotes on coat hanger because in a private confession a troubled woman asking for guidance described an abortion she performed on herself   after   Roe vs Wade during the 1980's.

    She was a married woman and obviously in need of professional medical care and mental counseling by a professional.    She was the second wife of a neighbor that  I  grew up with.   He probably never has been informed of this.     She was extremely good looking and intelligent but was abandoned by her mother completely after several episodes during early childhood where her mother would run away for months.    Her father then  had to send her to relatives to live with then finally his sister, her aunt who was married but could not have children adopted her at the age of  about 6-7 years old. The emotional scars  were deep  and this dominated her life.  And  I am not being dramatic.

    People need to find God.

   Evil spirits carefully watch individuals seeking to find and identify spiritual, physical, emotional and mental  weaknesses or wounds.  Once these are known they wait for an opportunity to strike and inflict as much damage as possible. The presence of  evil spirits is constant throughout  the every day  life of  every person of any religion or total atheist.  These wicked and perverse spiritual beings' sole purpose of existence has become  bringing people to live in continual sin.  They are keenly aware that immediately (actually judgment is fixed after death)  after  death the judgment of God awaits every one who has lived.  Their constant aim is to subtly lead people into perdition and toward  eternal damnation by getting them to reject the Provincial Plan of Salvation for Mankind.   One Plan that all  must participate in to be Saved.

     It seems that just as aware of  Judgment evil  are people unaware.   It takes Faith, Hope & Trust in God and His Christ  to overcome these obstacles that are the result of  Original Sin  This is basic Catholic  teachings.

     Obama proudly once claimed about 3 years ago: "America is no longer a  Christian nation." This past election  supports his claim.   

      Our Catholic Bishops all asked us not to support the most anti-Christian president in history and we failed to comply with their instructions as a nation.   One nation dis-solvable under  God knows what?    Do you? 

 What is your personal "Stand."   Who or what do you really follow?   There is no middle ground.   One is clearly on God's side or the other.

BP

 

[Robert_Caritas]

You are missing the point. Making something illegal implies people are going to do it and be thrown in jail for it.

If it were illegal and no doctor could perform the procedure there would be women taking drugs and aborting illegally. You will not know their intentions because they will have no reason to tell anyone. They will just do it. Not to mention born-alive babies that are victims of failed abortion. That is the first thing we need to put an end to. If abortion were underground I would think it would become more common but I don’t know a lot about it.

I think we should just suspend or maybe even revoke the doctors license to practice if they abort. Making things illegal tends to be harmful regardless of the evil that is being made illegal.

edit: even doing that will cause problems though. Education is the answer. Also the state should never support it in anyway. Let alone a teacher wow.

You’re not really responding to what I posted. I was addressing your specific example in which a desperate women goes to ask for an abortion. I also forwarded the argument for discussion that a woman who shows signs of abortion should be treated the same way as someone who shows signs of suicide, with extreme care and precaution.

I have highlighted ideas in your post that I think are misconceptions, and don’t have a solid basis in facts. The second statement seems outright misguided.

One point: Making something illegal implies** just** that, that it is illegal – punishment is another matter, and jail is a specific punishment.

If you want to me to respond in more detail and discuss this further, please respond more fully to my previous post. There’s no point in debating if we’re not really responding to each other. I’d be happy to continue afterwards.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

I don’t understand why you keep bringing up jail. That seems to be another conversation, as well as a side argument.
Not side argument - even if the punishment is fines that leads to jail. Vengeance is God’s.

Women who are going to try to pierce their amniotic sack with a piece of metal probably need mental and psychological support. They are probably very desperate and in a very unbalanced state. assumption There is a real risk of death when attempting such a procedure. Heavy bleeding can occur, and before antibiotics were so widespread there was a bad risk of deadly infection. What kind of pressure and problems would make someone want to risk such a terrible death? The pressure is the bigger problem than the baby in my view. There are many roots. One is poverty - another is demonic attack. Yet another is a bad upbringing. The list goes on. The point is that they are willing and have done it before.

I once saw an interview with a woman who did this to herself and almost died. I don’t think she saw it as a life inside of her, but as a big problem that would get her in a lot of trouble. She didn’t express any regret for her act, which is strange as she almost died. She saw herself as a victim of the system I think. Elaborate. She very well may have been but I see no reason why she would think that way in your post. Regardless it is just one case.

So in my limited view, these women are under tremendous pressure (from their own perception or their environment), have skewed thinking as to what a pregnancy is, and so need other kinds of help than an abortion. I think that people in the Church have started opening pregnancy centers that can deliver this kind of guidance and support, though I don’t know much about them. We are not doing enough. There are more people telling the teens how bad it is that they are pregnant than there are telling them not to abort.

Maybe like someone who is at risk of committing suicide, someone who is dead-set on aborting with a hanger should be restrained until she is not a harm to herself What about the next one that hears what happened to the last one?. Though I’m no psychiatrist or expert.

There is no easy answer. Another good point that has been brought up is our society thinks if something is not illegal it is okay… People need to learn to follow God’s law not human law…

 

[FaithInTheLord]

Ugh, granted that makes sense. Before abortion was legalized, the one performing the abortion was prosecuted or “thrown in jail.” If it was a woman performing an abortion on herself with a wire “coat hanger” it was her. If it was a doctor is was him. Women could go to Mexico to have that procedure done (hopefully not with a “coat hanger” & by a medical doctor) and they were not prosecuted upon return. Probably they weren’t advertising this. And I put quotes on coat hanger because in a private confession a troubled woman asking for guidance described an abortion she performed on herself after Roe vs Wade during the 1980’s.

    She was a married woman and obviously in need of professional medical care and mental counseling by a professional.    She was the second wife of a neighbor that  I  grew up with.   He probably never has been informed of this.     She was extremely good looking and intelligent but was abandoned by her mother completely after several episodes during early childhood where her mother would run away for months.    Her father then  had to send her to relatives to live with then finally his sister, her aunt who was married but could not have children adopted her at the age of  about 6-7 years old. The emotional scars  were deep  and this dominated her life.  And  I am not being dramatic.

    People need to find God.

   Evil spirits carefully watch individuals seeking to find and identify spiritual, physical, emotional and mental  weaknesses or wounds.  Once these are known they wait for an opportunity to strike and inflict as much damage as possible. The presence of  evil spirits is constant throughout  the every day  life of  every person of any religion or total atheist.  These wicked and perverse spiritual beings' sole purpose of existence has become  bringing people to live in continual sin.  They are keenly aware that immediately (actually judgment is fixed after death)  after  death the judgment of God awaits every one who has lived.  Their constant aim is to subtly lead people into perdition and toward  eternal damnation by getting them to reject the Provincial Plan of Salvation for Mankind.   One Plan that all  must participate in to be Saved.

**People forget about the evil spirits. Talking about them at Mass does not help with the donations **

     It seems that just as aware of  Judgment evil  are people unaware.   It takes Faith, Hope & Trust in God and His Christ  to overcome these obstacles that are the result of  Original Sin  This is basic Catholic  teachings.

     Obama proudly once claimed about 3 years ago: "America is no longer a  Christian nation." This past election  supports his claim.   

      Our Catholic Bishops all asked us not to support the most anti-Christian president in history and we failed to comply with their instructions as a nation.   One nation dis-solvable under  God knows what?    Do you? 

 What is your personal "Stand."   Who or what do you really follow?   There is no middle ground.   One is clearly on God's side or the other.

BP

I am on God’s side. God did not tell me to vote in that election. Remember that Obama is trying to help relations with the middle east so that might have something to do with that statement.

I do not like either candidate. I am not going to vote for the “lesser evil”.

I do not support Obama, at the same time I definitely don’t support Romney either. At least Obama is pretending to help the poor and middle class. Romney is just as much of a snake as Obama if not worse therefore I do not vote.

We are living in very evil times. When you escape the violence of the city you find wolves in sheeps clothing in the suburbs. Many of our priests do not even acknowledge the legions existence. Many Catholics would think you were crazy if you told them you encountered evil spirits.

I will vote for the first president that says he is going to pay people that are living in poverty to read and understand passages every week from the Gospel. If that program were implemented we would make serious progress. They definitely have the money - we could just tell the police to stop flying the helicopters 24/7.

I am still waiting on a rich person to let me run the program in Detroit. It would shock everyone! Heck they could just steal my idea for all I care it just needs to be done.

 

[Robert_Caritas]

There is no easy answer. Another good point that has been brought up is our society thinks if something is not illegal it is okay… People need to learn to follow God’s law not human law…

Do you disagree with legal punishment in all cases? Because you seem to be saying that. I’d be interested in hearing an argument for that. I agree that the “correctional” system is terrible, but I also believe that fear of punishment keeps people within the law. If the law had no teeth who would obey it?

I would also like to know how you think that my characterization of someone who is willing to risk death to kill their baby rather than go through with their pregnancy is anything else than deeply troubled and under great pressure (perceived or real). You write this off as an assumption.

I saw a film recently about women who had self-aborted. It is a very very graphic procedure. They are essentially inserting sharp and long metal objects in very sensitive parts of their bodies, and then stabbing themselves repeatedly. The theory is that this will induce a miscarriage. Can you explain how a balanced person under no pressure would do something like this?

I’m not sure what you meant when you responded here: “I once saw an interview with a woman who did this to herself and almost died. I don’t think she saw it as a life inside of her, but as a big problem that would get her in a lot of trouble. She didn’t express any regret for her act, which is strange as she almost died. She saw herself as a victim of the system I think. Elaborate. She very well may have been but I see no reason why she would think that way in your post. Regardless it is just one case.”

One last point, your argument that if abortion became legal more people would do it, doesn’t make sense. Is this supposed to be like the thinking of when pot is illegal, more kids do it? If anything, the legalization of abortion in 1973 made the number of abortions double in two years ( nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html ), and increase until, in my opinion, the pro-life voice started getting heard.

Here are two articles on death of women due to illegal abortions: realchoice.0catch.com/library/century/aahxpt2prn.htm
clinicquotes.com/pro-choice-facts-illegal-abortion-deaths/
They mainly state that well before Roe vs Wade (ever since modern antibiotics), abortion had become a safe procedure. So in general, when abortion was illegal, the mothers were not in danger – only the babies. The coat-hanger cases I think are really fringe. It was when a woman who was desperate could not find a safe abortionist.

Also, look up Bernard Nathanson. I had read a great interview with him, but I can’t find it now. He was the founder of one of America’s biggest pro-choice associations, and was personally responsible for thousands of lost lives. He the turned pro-life and spent the rest of his life trying to undo the harm he had caused. He speaks of the extremely aggressive and manipulative tactics they used to make abortion seem like a matter of justice. It is enlightening. I will post it when I come across it again. We should also pray for him, as he might have a very long time to do in purgatory (he repented and converted, so he is probably not in hell).

I agree that more should be done to help pregnant women in doubt, and to remove the pressures of society. This will be done by people helping other people. Catholic pregnancy centers are a huge first step in this direction. But speaking against abortion, out loud and publicly is just as important. If a teenager constantly hears that abortion is ok, and if another hears that it is evil – I am positive that one is definitely a lot more likely to get an abortion (much other brainwashing participates in this, motherhood, chastity and marriage are being heavily undermined in much of our society for example).

Here is something that I overheard at my college and almost made me almost sick. Two guys were speaking to each other: “You know man, if you’re ****ing one of those holistic girls, you know the one’s that don’t believe in abortion and s**t, and you get them pregnant… you’re screwed. You’re completely ****ed.” (believe me, I couldn’t come up with that) I had to say something, but to tell the truth, they would have looked at me like a space alien. Since abortion has become legal, to many many many people it is equivalent to wearing a condom, or getting minor surgery. They think it’s just normal and a matter of personal prerogative. It’s one of those things that people are thinking has to do with desire and free will, and that if you want to do it, then it’s ok.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

If the law had no teeth who would obey it?

Fear of punishment does not keep people within the law. By the time someone is going to do something serious enough to warrant jail time - they do not care about jail time. I know this from a whole lot of real life experience. Most of my friends have been to prison and all have been to jail. Furthermore jail does not protect society. It actually puts it at risk (ask me to elaborate if you want - I will need to get some coffee first though lol). The only people we need to fully institutionalize are psychopaths. The rest should be treated like sick people. Detained but not punished. The way I see it, if some people I know that went to prison had been born in a different situation they would be successful professionals instead of laborers barely able to provide for their families. God has come into my the lives of everyone in my close circle - if not for our merciful Lord’s help they would have continued to be victims of the system. Many in their situations would be out selling drugs or robbing right now. Both of those things support the culture of death. Our “correctional” system supports the culture of death more than rappers (that is saying something).

I would also like to know how you think that my characterization of someone who is willing to risk death to kill their baby rather than go through with their pregnancy is anything else than deeply troubled and under great pressure (perceived or real). You write this off as an assumption. She may have been raped and the doctors might have already told her the baby will be born handicapped. I am not saying that I agree the abortion should happen - I am saying if it is going to happen let’s be merciful. I guess the pressured part would have to be true though.

I saw a film recently about women who had self-aborted. It is a very very graphic procedure. They are essentially inserting sharp and long metal objects in very sensitive parts of their bodies, and then stabbing themselves repeatedly. The theory is that this will induce a miscarriage. Can you explain how a balanced person under no pressure would do something like this? Satan worship. Other than that you are right. I disagree with institutionalizing anyone that is not certifiable though.

I’m not sure what you meant when you responded here: "I once saw an interview with a woman who did this to herself and almost died. I don’t think she saw it as a life inside of her, but as a big problem that would get her in a lot of trouble. She didn’t express any regret for her act, which is strange as she almost died. She saw herself as a victim of the system I think. I would need to hear her argument for why she felt she was a victim of the system. A lot of people jump on that bandwagon - but there are countless victims.

One last point, your argument that if abortion became legal more people would do it, doesn’t make sense. Is this supposed to be like the thinking of when pot is illegal, more kids do it? If anything, the legalization of abortion in 1973 made the number of abortions double in two years ( nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html ), and increase until, in my opinion, the pro-life voice started getting heard. **I don’t think I made that argument. If I did I worded it wrong because it is not my stance. I believe the number of born-alive babies that are victims of attempted abortion would increase which is the real threat IMO. **

Also, look up Bernard Nathanson. I had read a great interview with him, but I can’t find it now. He was the founder of one of America’s biggest pro-choice associations, and was personally responsible for thousands of lost lives. He the turned pro-life and spent the rest of his life trying to undo the harm he had caused. He speaks of the extremely aggressive and manipulative tactics they used to make abortion seem like a matter of justice. It is enlightening. I will post it when I come across it again. We should also pray for him, as he might have a very long time to do in purgatory (he repented and converted, so he is probably not in hell). Looks like a Saul to Paul . Personally I think anyone who manipulates vulnerable girls into abortion should be made to register similar to sex-offenders.

I agree that more should be done to help pregnant women in doubt, and to remove the pressures of society. This will be done by people helping other people. Catholic pregnancy centers are a huge first step in this direction. But speaking against abortion, out loud and publicly is just as important. If a teenager constantly hears that abortion is ok, and if another hears that it is evil – I am positive that one is definitely a lot more likely to get an abortion (much other brainwashing participates in this, motherhood, chastity and marriage are being heavily undermined in much of our society for example). Very true and something I don’t think about enough. Education is the answer.

ok.

OK I had too many characters so had to edit.

Don’t worry about those guys. They are victims of Satan and have no clue what they are saying. They probably think abortion does no harm because they have no logic. They will be brainwashed in college and made to be drones - pray for them.

I worry for my daughter. She will be growing up in a period of great evil unless we get a miracle. I remember they started trying to brainwash me at a young age and on a lot more topics than abortion. Satanists and the like have infiltrated our society I wish this was just a “conspiracy theory” but it is not. Remember that the one in you is stronger than the one in this world .

 

[Robert_Caritas]

**Fear of punishment does not keep people within the law. By the time someone is going to do something serious enough to warrant jail time - they do not care about jail time. I know this from a whole lot of real life experience. Most of my friends have been to prison and all have been to jail. Furthermore jail does not protect society. It actually puts it at risk (ask me to elaborate if you want - I will need to get some coffee first though lol). The only people we need to fully institutionalize are psychopaths. The rest should be treated like sick people. Detained but not punished. The way I see it, if some people I know that went to prison had been born in a different situation they would be successful professionals instead of laborers barely able to provide for their families. God has come into my the lives of everyone in my close circle - if not for our merciful Lord’s help they would have continued to be victims of the system. Many in their situations would be out selling drugs or robbing right now. Both of those things support the culture of death. Our “correctional” system supports the culture of death more than rappers (that is saying something).
**

This is an interesting point. I agree with you to a certain extent. I think that I understand your position better now.

I think we agree that the social consideration of abortion is a huge problem, and pushing many people towards it. When you speak that Satan worship is in great part responsible for this, I would disagree with you, but it seems very likely to me that tempting and oppressing demons are not involved. Maybe at some level black magic is involved too, though I have no knowledge of this. It is clear that prayer and other spiritual practices are by far our main weapon in this fight.

About the other things you said, I agree that in some cases women who want to abort may be seen in a sympathetic light due to the huge amount of strain that they are under. With rape or incest this must be the case. But I would say that these cases are in fact more reasons to see why rape and incest are so horrible, and that abortion is not the answer.

In any case, I think that we agree a lot more than I previously thought, and that mostly we are thinking in very different ways. I still think that abortion should be illegal though, and I ask you again to consider the wisdom in this. As you pointed out, this legislation would have the harmful side effect of corrupting people in the correctional system, but given how widespread abortion has become today, I am sure that it would cause a lot more good than harm. I think that members of the clergy who thought about this Church stance were also aware of the circumstances that you are talking about. I don’t think that they took this position lightly. Getting abortion illegal will not be the end of the fight against abortion, but it will be an important step. When a baby dies in an illegal abortion it is also murder. To prevent these, education is going to be key. Though to prevent many many other ones, and to change the current way of thinking today, illegality is going to be very important.

The rhetoric of abstinence preached in many schools today is unrealistic and does not work. A more spiritually centered understanding of abstinence, and an aggressive stance against the world’s culture of easy sex will be necessary. I was trying to find a TV show to watch today on netflix, and I was amazed that I couldn’t find a single one not full of lewd sexual jokes, and a hyper liberal view of recreational sex. I hadn’t noticed that before I became serious about my faith. How can a teenager not be pushed towards fornication in such an environment? And fornication leads to unwanted pregnancy, etc…

I think that the best gift to Catholic children today is a serious education in traditional and orthodox Catholic doctrine and spirituality. They should learn how to pray, know the main doctrines of the Church, know about angels and demons, the saints, the rosary, and they should probably have a good education in the scientific disciplines as well (especially if they are going to get a higher education). They should learn about the true meaning of being loving, humble, and charitable, and that all of these come from God. I was raised in a very liberal Catholic environment, and I can tell you that none of the friends that I grew up with in catechism, to my knowledge, are practicing Catholics today. They have bought into the culture of the world. The Churches in my old town are empty most of the year. To tell you the quality of education that I had been given in religion. I hadn’t learned the term Eucharist, or transubstantiation for that matter. I knew nothing of purgatory, the saints, or angels. I was never taught to go to confession when I had sinned gravely, to pray outside of Church, or even to go to Church every Sunday! How could I have stayed Catholic once I grew up with that kind of knowledge?

Before coming back to the Church, I followed the path of spiritual desolation, self-indulgence in drink, entertainment, unchaste dating, etc… and I could always point to my Catholic friends who were on board with me to be reassured that it was normal. So from my personal experience, education is very important. If people don’t know the full love and beauty of the Church, the world becomes a lot more attractive than it already is.

 

[FaithInTheLord]

This is an interesting point. I agree with you to a certain extent. I think that I understand your position better now.

I think we agree that the social consideration of abortion is a huge problem, and pushing many people towards it. When you speak that Satan worship is in great part responsible for this, I would disagree with you, but it seems very likely to me that tempting and oppressing demons are not involved. Maybe at some level black magic is involved too, though I have no knowledge of this. It is clear that prayer and other spiritual practices are by far our main weapon in this fight. I was just throwing that out there. It is not something I actually have knowledge of. I was saying it to show the extremity of peoples mind-sets. Abortion can be part of a belief system…

About the other things you said, I agree that in some cases women who want to abort may be seen in a sympathetic light due to the huge amount of strain that they are under. With rape or incest this must be the case. But I would say that these cases are in fact more reasons to see why rape and incest are so horrible, and that abortion is not the answer. Are you suggesting that we should take more personal responsibility for our safety and not rely on the police to be everywhere? That would require our schools to educate people on this very basic concept.

In any case, I think that we agree a lot more than I previously thought, and that mostly we are thinking in very different ways. I still think that abortion should be illegal though, and I ask you again to consider the wisdom in this. As you pointed out, this legislation would have the harmful side effect of corrupting people in the correctional system, but given how widespread abortion has become today, I am sure that it would cause a lot more good than harm. I think that members of the clergy who thought about this Church stance were also aware of the circumstances that you are talking about. I don’t think that they took this position lightly. Getting abortion illegal will not be the end of the fight against abortion, but it will be an important step. When a baby dies in an illegal abortion it is also murder. To prevent these, education is going to be key. Though to prevent many many other ones, and to change the current way of thinking today, illegality is going to be very important. There is a lot to fix… In light of the way society at large thinks - it might be best to make it illegal. I have my perspective but it is very limited.

The rhetoric of abstinence preached in many schools today is unrealistic and does not work. A more spiritually centered understanding of abstinence, and an aggressive stance against the world’s culture of easy sex will be necessary. I was trying to find a TV show to watch today on netflix, and I was amazed that I couldn’t find a single one not full of lewd sexual jokes, and a hyper liberal view of recreational sex. I hadn’t noticed that before I became serious about my faith. How can a teenager not be pushed towards fornication in such an environment? And fornication leads to unwanted pregnancy, etc…**Sex is glorified in our schools these days. Many of our teachers have no faith and push rhetoric on students that comes from Satan - they just do not realize it. One of the first steps we can take is warning our own kids that diabolical influence is a real threat in their schools - not something out of a B horror film. **

I think that the best gift to Catholic children today is a serious education in traditional and orthodox Catholic doctrine and spirituality. They should learn how to pray, know the main doctrines of the Church, know about angels and demons, the saints, the rosary, and they should probably have a good education in the scientific disciplines as well (especially if they are going to get a higher education). They should learn about the true meaning of being loving, humble, and charitable, and that all of these come from God. I was raised in a very liberal Catholic environment, and I can tell you that none of the friends that I grew up with in catechism, to my knowledge, are practicing Catholics today. They have bought into the culture of the world. The Churches in my old town are empty most of the year. To tell you the quality of education that I had been given in religion. I hadn’t learned the term Eucharist, or transubstantiation for that matter. I knew nothing of purgatory, the saints, or angels. I was never taught to go to confession when I had sinned gravely, to pray outside of Church, or even to go to Church every Sunday! How could I have stayed Catholic once I grew up with that kind of knowledge? Couldn’t agree more. We are not even taught the basics in this age. You have to want to know.

Before coming back to the Church, I followed the path of spiritual desolation, self-indulgence in drink, entertainment, unchaste dating, etc… and I could always point to my Catholic friends who were on board with me to be reassured that it was normal. So from my personal experience, education is very important. If people don’t know the full love and beauty of the Church, the world becomes a lot more attractive than it already is. ** Many in this age feel that this world is somehow compatible with their souls and they feel that they are a part of it. They feel it is “okay”. They are not properly educated on what our Lord taught us more or less…**

I know what you mean about the “normalcy” of sin in modernized Catholics. A lot of it is because they don’t understand the power of not sinning. They only see the power of sinning because the world is so dark these days. We must teach our children to follow God’s Word above all else.

 

[Robert_Caritas]

Great point about the power of not sinning. Since I have started making much larger efforts to be moral and pure, it is true that I feel a sort of power. Maybe this is has to do with having more integrity. In any case I feel that it is meant to be put to the service of God. I am ever grateful that he trusts me with it. Praise to you Lord Jesus-Christ!

You asked about what I think the solution is… I think that we need to take chastity seriously again, very seriously. But it has to go beyond teaching simple facts of abstinence to children – an approach that doesn’t work at all in our day in age, if it ever did. Children and young adults need to be brought close to the spiritual life, they need to be brought close to God’s commandments and be on fire with the Holy Spirit, and desire for God. This will make chastity possible.

Though I have to say that I know close to nothing about education so this is just what I can extrapolate from my own experience. I know that once I had God in my life, being chaste was a lot easier (I also haven’t smoked in 5 months, eat less, drink less, etc). Also I don’t think that I would have managed to learn how to date chastely without confession. Having to confess sins against chastity several weeks in a row sure motivates you to figure things out faster! I read somewhere that an old preacher used to say: “The best way of keeping the Devil out, is keeping Jesus in.” Agreed!

Here are the articles that I mentioned in my last post but couldn’t find:

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/
straightdope.com/columns/read/2510/before-em-roe-em-v-em-wade-em-did-10-000-women-a-year-die-from-illegal-abortions

Regards!

Robert

 

[BobCatholic]

o I’m looking for some other country or hermitage where I can dwell in peace…

Malta.

Article 2 of the Constitution of Malta states that the religion of Malta is the “Roman Catholic apostolic religion” (paragraph 1), that the authorities of the Roman Catholic Church have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and wrong (paragraph 2) and that religious teaching of the Roman Catholic apostolic faith shall be provided in all state schools as part of compulsory education (paragraph 3).

You can thank St. Paul for making this a Catholic Country.

 

[Listener]

Some of you are acting like abortion would stop if the other guy won. Why on earth would you think that? Did eight years of a Republican president reduce abortion? I don’t think so.

I even heard that the Massachusetts medical plan covered birth control just like Obamacare does.

I also heard that a certain candidate’s opinion on abortion changes, kind of like the weather changes.

Is anyone forced to go out and have an abortion? No one that I know of.

I feel lucky to have Social Security and Medicare, which I paid into for years. Would I be happy if the younger people got a voucher and were told to go shopping for medical insurance after they turned 65? No, I don’t think that would be fair, and I don’t think the younger people would like it either.

I can just imagine some poor old guy who was losing both his eyesight and his mind getting his medical insurance voucher in the mail and tossing it in the garbage can.

Oh well, another way for the government to save a little money.

 

[Robert_Caritas]

Some of you are acting like abortion would stop if the other guy won. Why on earth would you think that? Did eight years of a Republican president reduce abortion? I don’t think so.

I even heard that the Massachusetts medical plan covered birth control just like Obamacare does.

I also heard that a certain candidate’s opinion on abortion changes, kind of like the weather changes.

Is anyone forced to go out and have an abortion? No one that I know of.

I feel lucky to have Social Security and Medicare, which I paid into for years. Would I be happy if the younger people got a voucher and were told to go shopping for medical insurance after they turned 65? No, I don’t think that would be fair, and I don’t think the younger people would like it either.

I can just imagine some poor old guy who was losing both his eyesight and his mind getting his medical insurance voucher in the mail and tossing it in the garbage can.

Oh well, another way for the government to save a little money.

I agree with you in many respects. I just couldn’t personally vote for Obama when I learned exactly how pro-abortion he was. He even voted down the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, which would protect aborted foetus’ which somehow survived ( factcheck.org/2008/08/obama-and-infanticide/ ). I looked at his reasons for not letting it go through and they are not straightforward at all, the article details it. Obama is very very pro-choice, and makes a point on defending abortion when he can.

I personally didn’t think that Romney was going to do anything about abortion, my hopes were riding on Paul Ryan’s influence. Though overall I didn’t like them as candidates, I think it was the right thing to vote for them. But now we have Obama…

We’re back to where we were yesterday, so things can’t be much worse. Making society better is going to happen from the bottom up in any case, not the top down.

“I can just imagine some poor old guy who was losing both his eyesight and his mind getting his medical insurance voucher in the mail and tossing it in the garbage can.”

Good point.

“Is anyone forced to go out and have an abortion? No one that I know of.”

FaithInTheLord and me just had a big conversation on this thread, and our consensus was around the point that the problem is in the normalizing of abortion that has happened after its legalization. So many more abortions happen since it is seen not as a dramatic act, but as a grave but somewhat routine decision. Though the problem is much wider than this.

Regards,

Robert

 

[BobCatholic]

Some of you are acting like abortion would stop if the other guy won. Why on earth would you think that?

I don’t know who actually said that.

The fact is there is either a maximum level of abortions (Moloch) or a lower level of abortions (the other guy).

It was never about “abortion would stop” it was about reducing evil (that’s all that is possible)

Is anyone forced to go out and have an abortion? No one that I know of.

Not yet. But it will happen. China is not an aberration. When “overpopulationists” take over a government, the dehumanization of people will get worse.

I feel lucky to have Social Security and Medicare, which I paid into for years. Would I be happy if the younger people got a voucher and were told to go shopping for medical insurance after they turned 65? No, I don’t think that would be fair, and I don’t think the younger people would like it either.

Social Security and Medicare are ponzi schemes, that corrupt politicians dipped into the trust funds and spent the money already. The president cut $717 billion from Medicare to fund Obamacare. THIS is why younger people are going to get vouchers and older people will get death panels.

But remember, it is the other guy who never was in the office of president who is to blame and does not deserve to be elected.