Defacto/Marriage?

[Anne_G]

I seperated from my defacto partner of 22 years and 3 children together. Altough we never married we presented ourselves as being married, and after turning to God 7 years ago asked him to accept it as a marriage. I wasn’t able to then get married due to a terrible marriage going downhill.

I intend on abiding by the rules that the Bible and Catholic Church say on divorce, ie I am never to remarry.

Out of interest I asked my local priest where I stood, and he said I am most welcome to get married in the Catholic Church should I wish. I was HORRIFIED.

Since then, I have read everything I can in the Bible on marriage and Divorce. I can see nowhere where a marriage must take place in the Church or be approved by the Church. What I read is that God may indeed accept us as having been married.

My evidence is:

Genesis 2:24 states “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh”.

Exodus 22:16 says “When a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to be married, and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife”.

Mark 10:7 again states “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate”.

Matt 19:4 “Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said ‘for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’. So the two are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together let no one separate”. Ephesians 5:31 reiterates this again.

Tobit 7 – 8 is the best example. Tobit’s son Tobias seeks his relative’s permission to marry his daughter. Upon receiving permission, they spend the night together praying and in intimacy. The next day they are deemed as Husband and Wife.

The person with whom you first have intimate relations with is the one God accepts you are married to, read 1 **Cor 6:16 ** “Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, ‘the two shall be one flesh’”.

Could anyone show me otherwise in the Bible where a ceremony must take place and where it should be approved by the Church.

If I am indeed correct, then the Church are allowing many many many people to commit sins against God. That may fall on the Church for incorrect teahing, but it would partly fall on the individual too for not reading their Bible and seeking God’s advice.
I did, and this is what he lead me to!

I wrote to all avenues within Australia, but they remain in their stance. I have written to the Pope but as of yet heard nothing. I feel God guiding me very strongly on this.

I am interested to know what other people think, and if, in the future, set up petitions, would people support me.

 

[Karin]

I am sorry but I am a bit confused here…you state that you never married your partner, but you passed yourself off as married.(Altough we never married we presented ourselves as being married)

No need to never marry again…you never where married to begin with…you lived in sin for the past 20 odd years.
(I intend on abiding by the rules that the Bible and Catholic Church say on divorce, ie I am never to remarry)

As to the Church’s teaching on marriage:
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1631:
*This is the reason why the Church normally requires that the faithful contract marriage according to the ecclesiastical form. Several reasons converge to explain this requirement: *

***-Sacramental marriage is a liturgical act. It is therefore appropriate that it should be celebrated in the public liturgy of the Church; ***

***- Marriage introduces one into an ecclesial order, and creates rights and duties in the Church between the spouses and towards their children; ***

***- **Since marriage is a state of life in the Church, certainty about it is necessary (hence the obligation to have witnesses); ***- The public character of the consent protects the “I do” once given and helps the spouses remain faithful to it

**Catechism of the Catholic Church 1663:
Since marriage establishes the couple in a public state of life in the Church, it is fitting that its celebration be public, in the framework of a liturgical celebration, before the priest (or a witness authorized by the Church), the witnesses, and the assembly of the faithful

Catechism of the Catholic Church 2391:
Some today claim a “right to a trial marriage” where there is an intention of getting married later. However firm the purpose of those who engage in premature sexual relations may be, “the fact is that such liaisons can scarcely ensure mutual sincerity and fidelity in a relationship between a man and a woman, nor, especially, can they protect it from inconstancy of desires or whim.” Carnal union is morally legitimate only when a definitive community of life between a man and woman has been established. Human love does not tolerate “trial marriages.” It demands a total and definitive gift of persons to one another

 

[cargopilot]

Anne G:

Out of interest I asked my local priest where I stood, and he said I am most welcome to get married in the Catholic Church should I wish. I was HORRIFIED.

Why would you be HORRIFIED? Your Priest was right, you’re not now, nor never married in the eyes of the Church. Oh, you may have been ‘married’ in common law, but as a Catholic, you’re required to marry in the Church. They can’t give you a so-called ‘anullment’, because there’s nothing to ‘annul’. Please believe your Priest.

 

[mercygate]

Come again?

You were living in open fornication for 22 years but you are horrified that the Church doesn’t accept this arrangement as a marriage?

When you repented and quit your sin, God and the Church welcomed you back as a brand new person with a clean slate to start over, and you’re horrified?

Go figure.

 

[Catholic2003]

Anne G:

The person with whom you first have intimate relations with is the one God accepts you are married to

By this theory there would be no such thing as the sin of “fornication”.

 

[Anne_G]

So far, everyone has given me where I stand with the Catholic Church. I am interested in what the Bible says - God’s Word.
No-one has shown me where in the Bible it says God only accepts a marriage perform by a Catholic Priest, or approved by the Church.
I didn’t misrepresent my self as being married, we were quite open that we were not married, but committed to the relationship the same as a married couple.
Again I ask that you look at my quotes from scripture, and see whether God may in fact accept it as a marriage, in particular Tobit (from the Catholic Bible).
I turned to God 7 years ago, and am very strict on following him. Perhaps I did live in sin as you all say, but why do I feel God guiding me so heavily on this.
I didn’t point out in my original post, that I am not looking for the Church to accept it as a marriage at all, I understand that it is a Sacrament, but what I am looking for is for the Church to refuse to ever marry someone who lived in a defacto relationship based on the biblical evidence that God could indeed accept their relationship as a marriage.
If Adam and Eve were the first man and Woman, who married them. God joined them together, not a priest, or the Church.

 

[dafalax]

Anne G:

So far, everyone has given me where I stand with the Catholic Church. I am interested in what the Bible says - God’s Word.
No-one has shown me where in the Bible it says God only accepts a marriage perform by a Catholic Priest, or approved by the Church.
I didn’t misrepresent my self as being married, we were quite open that we were not married, but committed to the relationship the same as a married couple.
Again I ask that you look at my quotes from scripture, and see whether God may in fact accept it as a marriage, in particular Tobit (from the Catholic Bible).
I turned to God 7 years ago, and am very strict on following him. Perhaps I did live in sin as you all say, but why do I feel God guiding me so heavily on this.
I didn’t point out in my original post, that I am not looking for the Church to accept it as a marriage at all, I understand that it is a Sacrament, but what I am looking for is for the Church to refuse to ever marry someone who lived in a defacto relationship based on the biblical evidence that God could indeed accept their relationship as a marriage.
If Adam and Eve were the first man and Woman, who married them. God joined them together, not a priest, or the Church.

The burden of proof here is on you, if you pardon me for pointing it out. Where in the Bible does it say you can shack up with someone for 22 years and call it a marriage? The Bible only speaks of marriages that had actual wedding ceremonies. Maybe you should learn a bit more about history and religion before you go making demands for obscure Biblical proofs.

 

[Anne_G]

“When I stopped this sin then God and the Church welcomed me back”
You know what God thinks? I don’t think so. Seven years ago I had help from God, I won’t go into it because you wouldn’t believe me, all I will say is that I had a definate experience with God whom I didn’t follow prior to that at all. He chose to help me even though I was living in sin and knew would have to continue to do so for another 6 years. He asked me to go to Church and my Children and wished for my ex-partner to go too (which he wouldn’t). I feel his presence in my life every day and have done since this first happened. Please don’t tell me God doesn’t or didn’t accept me, you are not him, and I have felt most accepted by him. Yes, I continually apologised for my relationship being in the state it was. I also went to Church and had my Children baptised by the Catholic Church when they knew we were not married, so they obviously accepted me as well.

 

[Karin]

“When I stopped this sin then God and the Church welcomed me back”
You know what God thinks? I don’t think so. Seven years ago I had help from God, I won’t go into it because you wouldn’t believe me, all I will say is that I had a definate experience with God whom I didn’t follow prior to that at all. He chose to help me even though I was living in sin and knew would have to continue to do so for another 6 years. He asked me to go to Church and my Children and wished for my ex-partner to go too (which he wouldn’t). I feel his presence in my life every day and have done since this first happened. Please don’t tell me God doesn’t or didn’t accept me, you are not him, and I have felt most accepted by him. Yes, I continually apologised for my relationship being in the state it was. I also went to Church and had my Children baptised by the Catholic Church when they knew we were not married, so they obviously accepted me as well.

**ON A SIDE NOTE…you do not need to be married to have your kids baptized in the R.C. Church! And if you are Catholic…why isnt what the Pope, Bishops, Priests tell you truth? Is the only truth you will believe in the Bible? What about the CCC??? **

 

[mercygate]

Anne G:

I am interested in what the Bible says - God’s Word.
No-one has shown me where in the Bible it says God only accepts a marriage perform by a Catholic Priest, or approved by the Church.
I didn’t misrepresent my self as being married, we were quite open that we were not married, but committed to the relationship the same as a married couple.
Again I ask that you look at my quotes from scripture, and see whether God may in fact accept it as a marriage, in particular Tobit (from the Catholic Bible).
I turned to God 7 years ago, and am very strict on following him. Perhaps I did live in sin as you all say, but why do I feel God guiding me so heavily on this.
I didn’t point out in my original post, that I am not looking for the Church to accept it as a marriage at all, I understand that it is a Sacrament, but what I am looking for is for the Church to refuse to ever marry someone who lived in a defacto relationship based on the biblical evidence that God could indeed accept their relationship as a marriage.
If Adam and Eve were the first man and Woman, who married them. God joined them together, not a priest, or the Church.

It is generous of you to choose to live henceforth as if your relationship had been a marriage and to remain continent: a very beautiful form of penance, and a witness to the depth of your conversion.

As for your taking the Church to task, it is Jesus who made marriage sacramental by his very first miracle of Cana – changing the water of natural marriage into the wine of a supernatural Sacrament . . .

Catholic theology on this states that it is the couple who administer the sacrament to one another, not the priest. So you are in agreement with the Church on that.

But your “marriage” was not sacramental. Since the Church did not WITNESS your commitment, and since you do not state that there is a public record of it, and since there is no record that you INTENDED by initiating this irregular relationship to enter into what the Church understands by marriage, the Church is not acting contrary to Scripture by not recognizing what did not exist – a Christian marriage

Christian marriage is not simply a private arrangement between two people; it is a commitment in Christ, to the Church and to the community.

You are perfectly free to remain continent and single for the rest of your life.

The kind of thinking you do here is what got you into this situation in the first place.

 

[Anne_G]

dafalax:

The burden of proof here is on you, if you pardon me for pointing it out. Where in the Bible does it say you can shack up with someone for 22 years and call it a marriage? The Bible only speaks of marriages that had actual wedding ceremonies. Maybe you should learn a bit more about history and religion before you go making demands for obscure Biblical proofs.

I did show you. Read Tobit (it is too long to reproduce here) as only one evidence. Tobias asked for permission to marry his relative’s daughter which was given. The parents left the house for the night,. Tobias and his fiance prayed to God and stayed together the night, and were deemed Husband and Wife.
I’m not asking for Obscure biblical proofs, I asked politely for Biblical proof in black and white, I did not demand.

 

[Anne_G]

mercygate:

The kind of thinking you do here is what got you into this situation in the first place.

Could you please elaborate on this, I’m unsure as to what you meant.

 

[Catholic2003]

Anne G:

So far, everyone has given me where I stand with the Catholic Church. I am interested in what the Bible says - God’s Word.

Leviticus 21:9 A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

By your theory, there would be no such thing as fornication.

 

[mercygate]

Anne G:

Could you please elaborate on this, I’m unsure as to what you meant.

“Where in the Bible does it say you need the Church . . . ?”

You’ve clearly had a lot of sorrow in your life; I pray that you continue to respond to the very great graces you have received and continue to heal.

 

[dafalax]

You know what God thinks? I don’t think so. Seven years ago I had help from God, I won’t go into it because you wouldn’t believe me, all I will say is that I had a definate experience with God whom I didn’t follow prior to that at all.

While no one knows exactly what God thinks, He did give us His one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church to guide us and answer questions like this. The Bible quotes you cite above can easily be explained as non-applicable to your particular situation. Because interpreting the written word can be such a confusing task and different interpretations can arise (just look at all the protestant denominations), God in His wisdom has sent the Holy Spirit to guide His one true Church. If you do not trust a particular priest, look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is pretty comprehensive. Also, have you taken your Bible quotes to the priest to see what he had to say about them?
You obviously are trying very hard to do the right thing and obey God’s will, which is wonderful! I just converted this last Easter, and my life before Church is the stuff of nightmares. I don’t know what God is thinking, but i know that when i confess my mortal sins to Him in the confessional, He forgives me. And we know He loves everyone and wants them to make themselves right with Him and His laws. The EWTN question and answer forum, though had a question from a woman much like you a few months back, and they answered her the same way; your previous partnership was not a marriage. Be grateful, for God may choose to put a nice Catholic man in your future. Or He may call you to consecrated celibacy. Listen to what He’s telling you, not what you in your budding fervor are willing to do to make up for past wrongs.

 

[Anne_G]

**ON A SIDE NOTE…you do not need to be married to have your kids baptized in the R.C. Church! And if you are Catholic…why isnt what the Pope, Bishops, Priests tell you truth? Is the only truth you will believe in the Bible? What about the CCC??? **

Yes I do take on board what the Pope and Church say. The Bible comes first with me though, and constant prayer to God for his guidance.

The only reason I question this ruling of the Church is, not on my on behalf, but for other Catholics who think they can get away with living in a defacto relationship as many times as they think to find the right one and then think the Church and God automatically forgive them for their past sins. It appears the Church will but will God? This ruling leaves a big loop hole for people to abuse.

 

[mercygate]

Anne G:

Yes I do take on board what the Pope and Church say. The Bible comes first with me though, and constant prayer to God for his guidance.

The only reason I question this ruling of the Church is, not on my on behalf, but for other Catholics who think they can get away with living in a defacto relationship as many times as they think to find the right one and then think the Church and God automatically forgive them for their past sins. It appears the Church will but will God? This ruling leaves a big loop hole for people to abuse.

It sounds as if you are jealous that someone ignorant of his own depravity could repent and start fresh . . . and that God would not hold his past against him.

As for the Bible coming “first” – whatever does that mean to you? The Church came nearly 400 years before the New Testament was canonized. We wouldn’t even HAVE the Bible if it weren’t that the Church gave it to us. It doesn’t make sense that the printed word should carry more weight for you than the living witness of the Body of Christ.

Nobody, but NOBODY takes the Bible more seriously than the Catholic Church. You are thrashing needlessly if you try to place your reading of Scripture above the Holy Spirit and the witness of the Body of Christ.

 

[Karin]

Anne G:

Yes I do take on board what the Pope and Church say. The Bible comes first with me though, and constant prayer to God for his guidance.

The only reason I question this ruling of the Church is, not on my on behalf, but for other Catholics who think they can get away with living in a defacto relationship as many times as they think to find the right one and then think the Church and God automatically forgive them for their past sins. It appears the Church will but will God? This ruling leaves a big loop hole for people to abuse.

There is no loop hole …if you follow the Pope and the Church! **To question the ruling of the Church is to question the Pope and the Church and Catholicsm! **

Why these other people may be confused I do not know …the teachings on fornication are pretty clear…
Catechism of the Catholic Church 2353:
Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1853:
Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man.” But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

**"**Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

 

[Anne_G]

“Where in the Bible does it say you need the Church . . . ?”

You’ve clearly had a lot of sorrow in your life; I pray that you continue to respond to the very great graces you have received and continue to heal.

Yes I have had sorrow in my life but I have healed from them thanks to the grace of God.

The Holy Spirit does guide the Church but he also guides individuals and I know he is most definately guiding me on this one area that I believe God wants changed by the Catholic Church. That is the only reason I am pushing this.

 

[Anne_G]

mercygate:

It sounds as if you are jealous that someone ignorant of his own depravity could repent and start fresh . . . and that God would not hold his past against him.

As for the Bible coming “first” – whatever does that mean to you? The Church came nearly 400 years before the New Testament was canonized. We wouldn’t even HAVE the Bible if it weren’t that the Church gave it to us. It doesn’t make sense that the printed word should carry more weight for you than the living witness of the Body of Christ.

Nobody, but NOBODY takes the Bible more seriously than the Catholic Church. You are thrashing needlessly if you try to place your reading of Scripture above the Holy Spirit and the witness of the Body of Christ.

I am not jealous of any one repenting for their past sins, I pray they do. My point was, it leaves a person a loophole to do so without repentance.
God told me to read the Bible and via the Holy Spirit I know it is his word and what we must live by. It was in fact written before the Church was establish (obviously the old testament) and by those who establish the Church. It is what the Church base everything on as well.