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Anne_G
Guest
Could you please help me with what this means then:
Cor 6:16 “Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, ‘the two shall be one flesh’”.
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Cor 6:16 “Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, ‘the two shall be one flesh’”.
M
mercygate
Guest
Anne G:
The sacramental “matter” of marriage is the full and free consent of the couple who intend what God intends in marriage. That is absent in a commercial transaction or in a common law relationship.
The people you are worrying about are unlikely to care about the loophole that troubles you. Repentance would not be in the picture for them.
Paul is emphasizing the gravity and sanctity of the marriage act. To say that a fornicator and a prostitute are “one flesh” – just as a husband and wife become one flesh – does not say that the prostitute and the fornicator are married.
The sacramental “matter” of marriage is the full and free consent of the couple who intend what God intends in marriage. That is absent in a commercial transaction or in a common law relationship.
The people you are worrying about are unlikely to care about the loophole that troubles you. Repentance would not be in the picture for them.
K
Karin
Guest
Anne G:
So,let me get this straight …God is “guiding” you to get this changed in the Catholic Church?
A
Anne_G
Guest
Yes.
I have a Australian publication, I’m not sure if available in US or not, but it was handed out to us at Church recently. It is called “The Father Speaks to His Children”. Our Father appeared to a Nun in Italy back in 1932 with a message for the Church, which the Church appear to accept as being divine intervention. God did this because he tried to get his message through others (whether this be within the Church or not it didn’t say) but they weren’t listening to him, so he used this Nun.
My point being that perhaps if the People within the Church can’t hear what he wants he uses people outside of the hierarchy.
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Anne_G
Guest
K
Karin
Guest
Anne G:
OK, has the Church accepted the message God sent you as divine intervention yet?
K
Karin
Guest
Anne G:
mercygate:
** The issue is that you interpert scripture one way to suit what you say God is telling you…but if this was a true divine intervetion from God to you would he not supply all that you needed…so no interpertation on your behalf would have to be done…in a sense just deliver his message as he tells it? **
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mlchance
Guest
Anne G:
Here’s the real truth, Anne G.: The Church, not you, has the authority to define doctrine about faith and morals. You never were married, and you have justification for setting yourself up as judge over Christ’s Bride.
Now all you have to do is humbly submit to the Church’s authority.
– Mark L. Chance.
Yet another person “guided by the Holy Spirit” to change the Church. It’s amazing that the Holy Spirit gives so many people so many different conflicting messages about what the truth really is.
Here’s the real truth, Anne G.: The Church, not you, has the authority to define doctrine about faith and morals. You never were married, and you have justification for setting yourself up as judge over Christ’s Bride.
Now all you have to do is humbly submit to the Church’s authority.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Karin
Guest
:clapping:
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mercygate
Guest
Anne G:
In a way he does. Paul emphasizes that what God created to be between a man and a woman is so essential to the human condition that even fornication and prostitution cannot erase that good.
But does God join the fornicator and the prostitute in a marriage? “At the beginning” God made Eve for Adam. God created the relationship. In following God’s plan, we enter into marriage with full and free consent, intending to live out his plan for marriage on *his *terms.
Undoubtedly, despite the fact that your relationship has been dissolved, at some point along the road you came to that consent and therefore accept that relationship as a marriage, whether it was or not. I understand that, because coming into the Catholic Church, DH and I had to marry in the Church (after 30 years in an invalid non-Catholic marriage; it was a bitter pill but I absoutely understood why the Church could not accept our marriage as valid, even though we both had given full and free consent to live as Christians – that’s another story. I still believe my marriage was a marriage – but it was certainly not a CATHOLIC marriage).
You are wonderfully generous to wish to live your life henceforth in continence and integrity, accepting the path you chose as if it were a valid marriage. May God reward you for your generosity.
There is more to your story than you are sharing with us – and it isn’t for anybody here to pry. But I would think that a clear and open discussion with a priest who is sensitive to your concerns might be helpful.
Does God join together two people who do not invite him into the equation?
In a way he does. Paul emphasizes that what God created to be between a man and a woman is so essential to the human condition that even fornication and prostitution cannot erase that good.
But does God join the fornicator and the prostitute in a marriage? “At the beginning” God made Eve for Adam. God created the relationship. In following God’s plan, we enter into marriage with full and free consent, intending to live out his plan for marriage on *his *terms.
Undoubtedly, despite the fact that your relationship has been dissolved, at some point along the road you came to that consent and therefore accept that relationship as a marriage, whether it was or not. I understand that, because coming into the Catholic Church, DH and I had to marry in the Church (after 30 years in an invalid non-Catholic marriage; it was a bitter pill but I absoutely understood why the Church could not accept our marriage as valid, even though we both had given full and free consent to live as Christians – that’s another story. I still believe my marriage was a marriage – but it was certainly not a CATHOLIC marriage).
You are wonderfully generous to wish to live your life henceforth in continence and integrity, accepting the path you chose as if it were a valid marriage. May God reward you for your generosity.
There is more to your story than you are sharing with us – and it isn’t for anybody here to pry. But I would think that a clear and open discussion with a priest who is sensitive to your concerns might be helpful.
M
mercygate
Guest
Anne G:
You are not distinguishing between “unions” and “marriages.” Christopher West gives a good example of how to think about Catholic marriage in his book, Good News about Sex and Marriage.
He notes the requisites for a Catholic marriage and then says that a relationship may have several of the components of a Catholic marriage: commitment, love, public affirmation, the ability to engage in sexual intercourse . . . but it is like baking chocolate chip cookies. You can bake cookies – very good cookies! – without chocolate chips. But without the chips, they are not chocolate chip cookies!
God uses people outside the hierarchy all the time. But presumably the nun was faithful to the magisterium.
You are not distinguishing between “unions” and “marriages.” Christopher West gives a good example of how to think about Catholic marriage in his book, Good News about Sex and Marriage.
He notes the requisites for a Catholic marriage and then says that a relationship may have several of the components of a Catholic marriage: commitment, love, public affirmation, the ability to engage in sexual intercourse . . . but it is like baking chocolate chip cookies. You can bake cookies – very good cookies! – without chocolate chips. But without the chips, they are not chocolate chip cookies!
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Magicsilence
Guest
Please ml, treat her with love and respect, we have no authority to judge this person, God does and has worked through individuals to bring messages to a Church (i.e the individuals) that have strayed so far from the message.
Christ brought forth a radical message, who are you to tell this woman she should ignore what God is telling her ? How do you KNOW she is wrong?
What she is saying makes a lotta sense (although there are a few errors in her understanding of marriage etc…), why do you believe that all people who feel guided by the Holy Spirit are just insane ?
Yes we should submit to the authority of the Church, but telling her to do so without explaining the reasons behind such a decision is really unfair.
Evidently she has gone through a lot to have lived in an open relationship and to now find herself begging mercy from Christ. We can do nothing by ourselves so you can attribute her return to the Church as an opening of her heart to the Holy Spirit.
If she is wrong, gently correct her.
If she is need of education, teach her.
If she is misled, show her the Truth.
If she is confused, open her eyes.
If she is stubborn, pray for her.
But never, never, dismiss her as someone worthy of being mocked and called “another person being led by the Holy Spirit etc…”.
When YOU stand in front of Almighty God and beg forgiveness of your sins, will you be so proud to remember the moment you dismissed a soul as worthy of mockery?
In Christ.
Andre.
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Heart_Of_Mary
Guest
FYI: regarding a legal marriage: depending on what state you live in, you might very likely be considered LEGALLY married and may ~technically~ need a legal divorce to remarry. Very few states have common law marriage (and each state is different regarding what they consider a legally binding common law marriage) so you need to check the info for where you live. There is no such law that covers all 50 states as one. Now, I am not sure what the RCC would say in a situation such as a “legally binding common law marriage/union” as far as needing an annulment or not. If state law is what matters, then it seems to me that someone might very likely need a Catholic Annulment to proceed with a new marriage.
KB
KB
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Courtneyjo
Guest
Anne G:
You and others are not unforgiveable. Jesus loves you so much that he will forgive you. You may feel that you want to do further reparation by never marrying in the Church, but the Church does not require this of you.
Anne, the Church and God do not automatically forgive past sins. Sin is forgiven by God in Confession. Yes, God will forgive people for their past sins. People come out of the confessional having to do penance. They are forgiven, washed clean, a clean slate. If the sins are “loosed on Earth”, they are “loosed in Heaven.” Jesus gave the Church this authority.
You and others are not unforgiveable. Jesus loves you so much that he will forgive you. You may feel that you want to do further reparation by never marrying in the Church, but the Church does not require this of you.
E
Evan
Guest
Anne G:
1932 is not exactly ‘our time’. Italy is not exactly austrailia. So the Nun’s revelation may not apply to your time and space. Even if it does, it is not requried that catholics (save the person that recieved the revelation) accept as true, authentic, or valuable the information given by the nun. We can accept or deny without prejudice.
It is not part of public revelation that ended with the apostles.
CCC Paragraph 67:
Private revelation is for people in a particular place and a particular time. It generally recieves a Nehil Obstat (sp?). That is, there is nothing objectionable from this “revelation” and nothing that would be considered heretical. Hardly a ringing endorsement for private revelation.
1932 is not exactly ‘our time’. Italy is not exactly austrailia. So the Nun’s revelation may not apply to your time and space. Even if it does, it is not requried that catholics (save the person that recieved the revelation) accept as true, authentic, or valuable the information given by the nun. We can accept or deny without prejudice.
It is not part of public revelation that ended with the apostles.
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Courtneyjo
Guest
Anne G:
Anne, you may not be aware that these forums do not allow the teaching of unapproved private revelation.
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Lillith
Guest
Anne G said:
Dear Ann…
Your story sounds alot like me! I did not fully understand and accept the Churchs’ teaching on confession for instance. I believed that I could skip it and go straight to God, and so I didn’t confess for years, although I definately should have, and I sinned gravely when I continued to take communion in this state. The thing that strikes me as similar is that I too had great interaction with God throughout this whole experience, and even a couple of miraculous things did happen to me during this time. And I would say to myself…see God is with me even though I don’t agree with the Church on this issue. The prayers answered were God’s way of calling me home…God does answer Prayers of people in a sinful state you see, and it is not proof that you are right, the Church is wrong.
Consider Mark chapter 5:7-13 (I’ll Paraphrase)
he Expolsion of rhe Devils in Gerasa. Jesus came upon a man who was so overcome with an unclean spirit that he had to be shackled, and no one could contain him. 7. Why meddle with me Jesus, son of the God most high? I implore you in God’s name, do not torture me! (demons asking for mercy from God). 8. Unclean spirit come out of that Man 9. What is your name? The sprit tells him legion and that there are hundreds of us 10. He pleaded hard with Jesus not to drive them away (again demons praying)
- It happened that there was a large herd of swine feeding on the mountain, and the demons requested that Jesus 12. “Send us into the swine”, “Let us enter them.” 13. He gave his word and and with it the unclean spirits came out and entered the swine.
I am working out the mess that my lack of understanding created…I am trying to obtain an annulment…straighting all that out, and in the meantime I have to trust that God forgives me of my ignorance.
Pray about this situation…God is calling you! I think you are coming up against a brick wall if you are trying to get the Church to change it’s views on living together. It really opens up the door for all kinds of different living together situations such as homosexual unions…it is a doctrine of the Church that will not be changed.
Unjudgementally yours!
me.
A
Anne_G
Guest
Do you deny the Holy Spirit? What does God do then when a doctrine or stance or ruling of the Catholic Church is not working? He obviously tries to get someone within the Clergy to do his will, if they can’t hear him, what does he do then? I don’t want to change the Church, all I want is for them to review this one area and let God then guide them on what to do.
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Anne_G
Guest
Thankyou for you kind post, it was very much appreciated. I feel I am being attacked for what I truly believe God wants changed.
I had no intentions of ever marrying again, but for some reason I felt God make me ask the Church where I stood. I love the Catholic Church, but can see real unfairness in this ruling. I can also see that if God did accept a union such as this, as Scripture could be interpreted to be so, then the Church could be letting people commit a grave sin.
I just want to elaborate on what I am trying to achieve. I am not after my relationship to be accepted as a marriage. It is what happens now that I am interested in.
As example, say a parishioner at my Church was married and divorced her husband. She is forgiven for the marriage breakdown but she cannot ever get remarried.
I lived as a married person, in my eyes. After my conversion I continued to do so (not through my choice). Now it is finished, I have repented for doing so, so I am forgiven. BUT I am given a second chance to find someone to share the rest of my life with.
Isn’t this grossly unfair to the one who chose to do right and marry.
The Holy Spirit has guided me to the fact that:
I had my chance at marriage (of which didn’t eventuate), therefore I must abide by the law of the Scriptures and never remarry (in my case marry) another person.
D
DoubleEdged
Guest
Anne G, THE CHURCH DOES NOT INSTITUTE MARRIAGE ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.
THE WORD MARRIAGE ITSELF MEANS ‘JOINED TOGETHER’.
THE WAY YOU JOIN WITH YOUR WOMAN IS THROUGH ‘SEX’
ONCE YOU HAVE SEX WITH A WOMAN YOU ARE JOINED TOGETHER, OR ‘MARRIED’ TO THE WOMAN. THAT IS IN THE BIBLE.
THAT IS WHY THE COMMANDMENT WAS GIVEN BY THE MOST HIGH THAT A MAN SHOULD CLEAVE(JOIN) TO HIS WOMAN THROUGH THE FLESH, THEN THEY LEAVE THEIR PARENTS’ HOME AND START THEIR OWN.
THE MOST HIGH JOINS A MAN AND WOMAN TOGETHER, NOT ANOTHER MAN, NOT A PRIEST, NOT A CHURCH.
WHEN YOU SIGN FOR A MARRIAGE LICENSE, YOU ARE MAKING THE GOVERMENT YOUR HEAD, OR YOUR GOD. YOU ARE ASKING THEM FOR PERMISSION TO BE JOINED TO YOUR WIFE.
THIS IS A RIGHT GIVEN TO MAN BY THE MOST HIGH. ONCE YOU SIGN THE LICENSE YOU ARE NOT ONLY MARRIED TO YOUR SPOUSE, BUT ALSO MARRIED TO THE GOVERMENT. THEY ARE NOW A THIRD PARTY TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP. THEY CAN BUD IN WHENEVER THEY LIKE, BECAUSE YOU’VE GIVEN THEM PERMISSION TO.
THE MARRIAGE LICENSE IS A FORM OF ENSLAVEMENT, YOUR RELATIONSHIP IS NOW BOUND UNDER THE LAW OF THE STATE.
JUST LIKE A DRIVERS LICENSE THEY CAN NOW SUBJECT YOU TO LAWS, AND REGULATIONS, AND CAN REVOKE WHAT YOU HAVE NOW MADE A ‘PRIVLEDGE’ INSTEAD OF A GOD GIVEN RIGHT.
OF COURSE THE CHURCH ENDORSES THIS…WHY?
BECAUSE THE CHURCH ALSO IS CREATURE OF THE STATE.
THEY HAVE A CHARTER WITH THE GOVERNMENT CALLED A ‘4013C’ CHARTER, WHICH EXCLUDES THEM FROM TAXES AND GIVES THEM CERTAIN PRIVELEDGES.
ONE OF THE CONDITIONS IS THAT THE CHURCH MUST TEACH ACCORDING TO THE ‘STATES’ AGENDA. WHY? BECAUSE NOW THE HEAD, OR THE GOD, OR CORNERSTONE OF THAT CHURCH IS NOT THE LORD.
IT IS THE STATE.
THAT IS WHY CHURCHES DON’T TEACH AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY, OR THE DESTRUCTION OF MODERN DAY BABYLON, OR ANYTHING ELSE WHICH ‘GOES AGAINST THE GRAIN’ OF ANY PHILOSOPHY OF THE GOVERNMENT OR THEIR AGENDA. IF THEY DO THEY WILL GET SUED, AND SHUT DOWN.
IN THE HARDCORE SLAVERY DAYS, THE SLAVE HAD TO ASK MASTA IF IT WAS OKAY TO WIFE A BELOVED ONE.
WELL GUESS WHAT! WE ARE ALL IN SLAVERY BEHIND INVISIBLE BARS.
WAKE UP…YOUR CHURCHES ARE NOTHING BY C.O’S FOR THIS INVISIBLE PRISON.
HOPE THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION GIRL…
…AND BY THE WAY, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE IF YOU DIVORCED YOUR HUSBAND AGAINST HIS WILL…YOU’VE COMMITTED ADULTERY…AND THERE IS A SEVERE ENDING TO THAT SITUATION FOR YOU.
THE WORD MARRIAGE ITSELF MEANS ‘JOINED TOGETHER’.
THE WAY YOU JOIN WITH YOUR WOMAN IS THROUGH ‘SEX’
ONCE YOU HAVE SEX WITH A WOMAN YOU ARE JOINED TOGETHER, OR ‘MARRIED’ TO THE WOMAN. THAT IS IN THE BIBLE.
THAT IS WHY THE COMMANDMENT WAS GIVEN BY THE MOST HIGH THAT A MAN SHOULD CLEAVE(JOIN) TO HIS WOMAN THROUGH THE FLESH, THEN THEY LEAVE THEIR PARENTS’ HOME AND START THEIR OWN.
THE MOST HIGH JOINS A MAN AND WOMAN TOGETHER, NOT ANOTHER MAN, NOT A PRIEST, NOT A CHURCH.
WHEN YOU SIGN FOR A MARRIAGE LICENSE, YOU ARE MAKING THE GOVERMENT YOUR HEAD, OR YOUR GOD. YOU ARE ASKING THEM FOR PERMISSION TO BE JOINED TO YOUR WIFE.
THIS IS A RIGHT GIVEN TO MAN BY THE MOST HIGH. ONCE YOU SIGN THE LICENSE YOU ARE NOT ONLY MARRIED TO YOUR SPOUSE, BUT ALSO MARRIED TO THE GOVERMENT. THEY ARE NOW A THIRD PARTY TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP. THEY CAN BUD IN WHENEVER THEY LIKE, BECAUSE YOU’VE GIVEN THEM PERMISSION TO.
THE MARRIAGE LICENSE IS A FORM OF ENSLAVEMENT, YOUR RELATIONSHIP IS NOW BOUND UNDER THE LAW OF THE STATE.
JUST LIKE A DRIVERS LICENSE THEY CAN NOW SUBJECT YOU TO LAWS, AND REGULATIONS, AND CAN REVOKE WHAT YOU HAVE NOW MADE A ‘PRIVLEDGE’ INSTEAD OF A GOD GIVEN RIGHT.
OF COURSE THE CHURCH ENDORSES THIS…WHY?
BECAUSE THE CHURCH ALSO IS CREATURE OF THE STATE.
THEY HAVE A CHARTER WITH THE GOVERNMENT CALLED A ‘4013C’ CHARTER, WHICH EXCLUDES THEM FROM TAXES AND GIVES THEM CERTAIN PRIVELEDGES.
ONE OF THE CONDITIONS IS THAT THE CHURCH MUST TEACH ACCORDING TO THE ‘STATES’ AGENDA. WHY? BECAUSE NOW THE HEAD, OR THE GOD, OR CORNERSTONE OF THAT CHURCH IS NOT THE LORD.
IT IS THE STATE.
THAT IS WHY CHURCHES DON’T TEACH AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY, OR THE DESTRUCTION OF MODERN DAY BABYLON, OR ANYTHING ELSE WHICH ‘GOES AGAINST THE GRAIN’ OF ANY PHILOSOPHY OF THE GOVERNMENT OR THEIR AGENDA. IF THEY DO THEY WILL GET SUED, AND SHUT DOWN.
IN THE HARDCORE SLAVERY DAYS, THE SLAVE HAD TO ASK MASTA IF IT WAS OKAY TO WIFE A BELOVED ONE.
WELL GUESS WHAT! WE ARE ALL IN SLAVERY BEHIND INVISIBLE BARS.
WAKE UP…YOUR CHURCHES ARE NOTHING BY C.O’S FOR THIS INVISIBLE PRISON.
HOPE THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION GIRL…
…AND BY THE WAY, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE IF YOU DIVORCED YOUR HUSBAND AGAINST HIS WILL…YOU’VE COMMITTED ADULTERY…AND THERE IS A SEVERE ENDING TO THAT SITUATION FOR YOU.
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