Defend traditional marriage... against what?

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Elizium23

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I am debating with a person on Facebook after posting a link to the USCCB’s website about defending marriage. This person wants to know, how is traditional marriage threatened by legalization of same-sex marriage? I quoted liberally from the FAQ for him, but he was unsatisfied with these answers, and concludes that “defend marriage” is merely a shibboleth, or jargon, used by people in the movement. I even gave him the specific example of adoption agencies being forced to close, thus threatening the ability of married couples to add to their families, but of course, he was not satisfied with this answer either.

What would you say? Can you go beyond the FAQ?
 
The fact of the matter is that some people (these days, most people) will not agree with you no matter what you say. Personally, it doesn’t get stuck in my craw and I pray to God and the saints for that His will be done. That’s typically what many people do after weeks of letting someone bend them out of shape. I tend to do it early on since I’ve accepted that no two people think exactly the same way about absolutely everything and we don’t need to. To some, this is an absolute scandal. I’ll just let them keep spending energy on that thought until they just get fed up and leave it up to God. 🙂
 
Many people make the argument that allowing homosexual marriage does not affect any else’s marriage at all. But in fact, it does. If marriage can be anything, it is really reduced to nothing. The sad results will be borne out in societal and civilizational decline. But by then it will be much too late to say ‘I told you so.’

The attack on marriage is already far advanced, having begun with the promotion of contraception, and continued with no fault divorce, the sexualization of children, the promotion of sexual promiscuity, and legalization of abortion, the promotion of homosexual unions. It’s unlikely that our culture will return to its senses, but one can always hope.
 
Scary.
Hope; and pray. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily Bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation but, deliver us from evil, Amen.
 
The fact of the matter is that some people (these days, most people) will not agree with you no matter what you say. Personally, it doesn’t get stuck in my craw and I pray to God and the saints for that His will be done. That’s typically what many people do after weeks of letting someone bend them out of shape. I tend to do it early on since I’ve accepted that no two people think exactly the same way about absolutely everything and we don’t need to. To some, this is an absolute scandal. I’ll just let them keep spending energy on that thought until they just get fed up and leave it up to God. 🙂
Nice answer…and very understandable…but it is not IAW The Catholic Faith and Vatican II. Simply…God’s will is that you and I do the work…always with and in his graces…and under his timeline…and most importantly manifesting his holiness and charity to others…but “leaving it to God”…in truth means you are leaving it to yourself…which is what God is doing. That was the major point of Vatican II…we have to “suit up and get on the field and play our hearts and lives out for God and for our brothers ans sisters”.

Below…for your consideration from the Catechism…
Pax Christi
II. THE LAY FAITHFUL
897 "The term ‘laity’ is here understood to mean all the faithful except those in Holy Orders and those who belong to a religious state approved by the Church. That is, the faithful, who by Baptism are incorporated into Christ and integrated into the People of God, are made sharers in their particular way in the priestly, prophetic, and kingly office of Christ, and have their own part to play in the mission of the whole Christian people in the Church and in the World."430
The vocation of lay people
898 "By reason of their special vocation** it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God’s will.** . . . It pertains to them in a special way so to illuminate and order all temporal things with which they are closely associated that these may always be effected and grow according to Christ and maybe to the glory of the Creator and Redeemer."431
899 The** initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life.** This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church:
Lay believers are in the front line of Church life; for them the Church is the animating principle of human society. Therefore, they in particular ought to have an ever-clearer consciousness not only of belonging to the Church, but of being the Church, that is to say, the community of the faithful on earth under the leadership of the Pope, the common Head, and of the bishops in communion with him. They are the Church 432

900 Since, like all the faithful,** lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate** by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation,** they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth.** This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it.433

Note: the footnotes 430, 431 & 433 are from Vatican II Lumen Gentium
 
Nice answer…and very understandable…but it is not IAW The Catholic Faith and Vatican II. Simply…God’s will is that you and I do the work…always with and in his graces…and under his timeline…and most importantly manifesting his holiness and charity to others…but “leaving it to God”…in truth means you are leaving it to yourself…which is what God is doing. That was the major point of Vatican II…we have to “suit up and get on the field and play our hearts and lives out for God and for our brothers ans sisters”.

Below…for your consideration from the Catechism…
Pax Christi

Note: the footnotes 430, 431 & 433 are from Vatican II Lumen Gentium
With all due respect and charity, I do find your response to me rather presumptuous. Don’t mistakenly gather from my comments that I do absolutely nothing in the way of living my faith and voicing my principles in a way that shows others the light of Christ. I think you misunderstood the gyst of this thread. The OP wants to go to full-scale war with someone on facebook over the defense of traditional marriage and wants us to provide extra information that hasn’t already been thrown at this skeptic in question. My response is that some people simply will not listen to your point of view no matter how convincing you are and that sometimes the best you can do is pray for them. WE can’t change anyone and WE are only, as you said, acting on God’s behalf in the first place. Accepting that there is only so much we can do is the best alternative to getting into arguments that usually degenerate. As this skeptic has been unreceptive to anything that was in the Catholic Answers FAQ on the matter, I highly doubt throwing more mere info at this person is going to change their mind. The only suggestion I made was to take a step back and realize that in the end, it’s not about us. That’s the #1 problem with people who make it their personal mission to get everyone they know to agree with them on every hot button issue as if that is what ultimately matters. I’ve been in that place before, and to be quite honest, I just don’t have the time or energy to police everyone’s beliefs.
 
This person wants to know, how is traditional marriage threatened by legalization of same-sex marriage?
Because it overthrows the purpose of marriage altogether. Marriage and procreation are two sides of the same coin. So called same-sex marriage requires we get rid of the coin and establish a new currency!

(And the argument that marriage should be afforded to same-sex couples, so that those couples may receive the same legal/economic benefits that heterosexual married couples are granted by the state, reduces marriage to a commodity).

I recommend listening to Alan Keyes’ explanation to why marriage is irrelevant to same-sex unions: youtube.com/watch?v=BMYBl2uzXEw
 
Maybe we first need to examine our motives so we may go forward with an educated opinion. If we are truly defending marriage, those of us who are married can also draw on our own personal reasons, morals, and ethics. There is no amount of a monthly stipend or insurance coverage that would entice me to go the difficult road of true marriage. We shouldn’t let people throw the word around as if it goes hand in hand with trivialities such as health benefits, tax breaks, etc. It is such a deeply convicted bond between a man, woman, AND GOD that I feel personally insulted anyone would reduce this grace filling sacrament to a legality. I could go on and on but, it just seems so ‘mushy’ doesn’t it? Not a good STRONG argument but a passionately heartfelt one anyway! 🤷

If our motive is a hidden attempt to keep homosexual persons from having sex ‘illicitly’ ~ excuse me for being pessimistic but, I don’t think that’s gonna happen. I personally believe the human stain, The Apple, the human condition, whatever you want to call it, is simply put, sex. I wish it would happen in my day that we as humans could overcome this burden. I believe it would mean we are becoming the perfect church Jesus taught us to become, bringing in all the peoples of the earth truly as our kin, but, I am sad to say, I don’t think it is going to happen in MY day at least. Denying marriage to homosexuals will not stop them from having sex with persons of their same sex.
 
Denying marriage to homosexuals will not stop them from having sex with persons of their same sex.
No, of course it won’t. Neither will denying marriage to polygamists stop them from having sex with multiple partners, nor does making bigamy illegal prevent adultery. But bigamists, adulterers, and polygamists are not, at present, pushing for governmental acceptance and benefits for their particular lifestyles.
 
I obviously did not state clearly, that was my point. I humbly thank you and wish there was a loving, peaceful, accepting solution for everyone.
 
I am debating with a person on Facebook after posting a link to the USCCB’s website about defending marriage. This person wants to know, how is traditional marriage threatened by legalization of same-sex marriage? I quoted liberally from the FAQ for him, but he was unsatisfied with these answers, and concludes that “defend marriage” is merely a shibboleth, or jargon, used by people in the movement. I even gave him the specific example of adoption agencies being forced to close, thus threatening the ability of married couples to add to their families, but of course, he was not satisfied with this answer either.

What would you say? Can you go beyond the FAQ?
No-fault divorce has done more to detroy traditional marriage than gay marriage will do. Moreover, in practice, most heterosexuals do not embrace traditional marriage. That’s probably why when Catholc couples seek annullments usually have their annullments granted. I mean the numbers are grossly large. Marriage is meant to last till death do us part. If Catholics are divorcing at the rate of secular people and 90% of their divorces are getting annulled, that means that in about half of the Catholic weddings taking place, no one is actually giving matrimonial consent to marry.

Or you can be cynical speculate that the American marriage tribunals are corrupt, and that valid marriages are getting annulled. Marriage tribunals are not covered by the doctrine of infallibility after all.

Anyway, the reason why homosexual marriage is getting accepted nearly universally is because heterosexuals have been seeing the bearing of children as optional for a long time now. Moreover most couples live together prior to marriage and see the wedding as a celebration of the success of their relationship, not the marking of a new commitment. Marriage to them is ultimately about gaining civil benefits and making the status of your relationship public. If you read books about how to write your own marriage vows, a lot of the examples given do not even speak of permenence. A good book on the subject is “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar” It really shows how American courtship has been pretty much destroyed and how marriage is following behind it.

I’m sorry but gay marriage in my opinion is a petty detail, a mere side effect of a much larger problem. The problem is that in putting gay marriage into civil law, you are redefining marriage not on a cultural level, but on a government level. Its like this. A long time ago someone added rat poison to home made spegetti sause. Now for some reason this enhenced the flavor and people kept denying that this secret ingredient was causing illness and was killing some people. When people didn’t have rat poison, they used other types of poison. However for some odd reason people were certain that there was something wrong with using dog poison. Now maybe its because “Who would even want to poison a dog anyway? There is something disordered with that action.” But everyone else is like “Rat poison, ant killer, raid, dog poison. What’s the difference.” So people start rallying around the people who want to use dog poison. Now a group of people are insisting that the recipe books include the option of dog poison to show people “Look stop attacking the people who like the taste of dog poison.” Then the conservatives are getting all upset that dog poison even exists and telling the recipe books “Please, please just add to your book the secret incredient is a poison that does not include the name of a cute furry animal.”

Everyone is missing the big picture. But its like chesterton said. "The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”
 
First, I would like to correct myself. It seems that the OP didn’t quote from CA’s FAQs on marriage, but from the USCCB’s FAQs on marriage. My mistake.

Second, I very much agree with Philotheatoo’s comments. Not everyone is called to be an apologist in the most practical sense of the word. In fact, I believe that Karl Keating makes it clear in the final chapter of Catholicism and Fundamentalism that the ultimate concern of the apologist is for truth to be spoken in love and that God be glorified in everything. When we make it out personal mission to convince someone of a belief that we espouse, our focus is skewed. We make our faith something that should be lived in every aspect of our lives something that should merely be thought or believed, and I for one am sick of the belief police who are out trying to make sure every last idea that their neighbor thinks matches ever made it into their own head. Even when it comes to something as crucial as marriage, they’re not necessarily going to buy what you’re selling (and who are you to make them?). Even those who have dedicated their careers and their lives to causes such as this (prolife, pro-marriage, anti-poverty/charity) can’t possibly do enough on their own. To change hearts takes Jesus, not rhetoric.
 
Destruction of true marriage is the goal as that will lead to the ultimate goal, destruction of the Church.

The “principalities and powers and rulers of darkness” have won so many battles in the destruction of marriage, they won with contraception and widespread divorce and abortion, this is the next step in a spiritual war.
 
No-fault divorce has done more to detroy traditional marriage than gay marriage will do. Moreover, in practice, most heterosexuals do not embrace traditional marriage. That’s probably why when Catholc couples seek annullments usually have their annullments granted. I mean the numbers are grossly large. Marriage is meant to last till death do us part. If Catholics are divorcing at the rate of secular people and 90% of their divorces are getting annulled, that means that in about half of the Catholic weddings taking place, no one is actually giving matrimonial consent to marry.

Or you can be cynical speculate that the American marriage tribunals are corrupt, and that valid marriages are getting annulled. Marriage tribunals are not covered by the doctrine of infallibility after all.

Anyway, the reason why homosexual marriage is getting accepted nearly universally is because heterosexuals have been seeing the bearing of children as optional for a long time now. Moreover most couples live together prior to marriage and see the wedding as a celebration of the success of their relationship, not the marking of a new commitment. Marriage to them is ultimately about gaining civil benefits and making the status of your relationship public. If you read books about how to write your own marriage vows, a lot of the examples given do not even speak of permenence. A good book on the subject is “Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar” It really shows how American courtship has been pretty much destroyed and how marriage is following behind it.

I’m sorry but gay marriage in my opinion is a petty detail, a mere side effect of a much larger problem. The problem is that in putting gay marriage into civil law, you are redefining marriage not on a cultural level, but on a government level. Its like this. A long time ago someone added rat poison to home made spegetti sause. Now for some reason this enhenced the flavor and people kept denying that this secret ingredient was causing illness and was killing some people. When people didn’t have rat poison, they used other types of poison. However for some odd reason people were certain that there was something wrong with using dog poison. Now maybe its because “Who would even want to poison a dog anyway? There is something disordered with that action.” But everyone else is like “Rat poison, ant killer, raid, dog poison. What’s the difference.” So people start rallying around the people who want to use dog poison. Now a group of people are insisting that the recipe books include the option of dog poison to show people “Look stop attacking the people who like the taste of dog poison.” Then the conservatives are getting all upset that dog poison even exists and telling the recipe books “Please, please just add to your book the secret incredient is a poison that does not include the name of a cute furry animal.”

Everyone is missing the big picture. But its like chesterton said. "The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”
This.
 
Destruction of true marriage is the goal as that will lead to the ultimate goal, destruction of the Church.

The “principalities and powers and rulers of darkness” have won so many battles in the destruction of marriage, they won with contraception and widespread divorce and abortion, this is the next step in a spiritual war.
Well, where are we on the other “battles”? Why do we so vigorously and vehemently fight what we see as the enemy, those who want nothing to do with us, while our friends and family are going over a cliff? Talk about failure to fix the problem at its source. The ammo that ALWAYS gets shot at me and others I know when they talk to non-believers about these issues is that we Catholics don’t practice what we preach, and for the most part, that’s true. Any attempt to evangelize Catholics, however, is half-hearted at best and every attempt to evangelize those who aren’t is usually highly agressive. When I see people using the same strong language against their brothers that they use against those who sin and/or believe in a different way than they do, THEN I’ll believe this war of ideas isn’t a toddler’s playground.
 
Well, where are we on the other “battles”? Why do we so vigorously and vehemently fight what we see as the enemy, those who want nothing to do with us, while our friends and family are going over a cliff? Talk about failure to fix the problem at its source. The ammo that ALWAYS gets shot at me and others I know when they talk to non-believers about these issues is that we Catholics don’t practice what we preach, and for the most part, that’s true. Any attempt to evangelize Catholics, however, is half-hearted at best and every attempt to evangelize those who aren’t is usually highly agressive. When I see people using the same strong language against their brothers that they use against those who sin and/or believe in a different way than they do, THEN I’ll believe this war of ideas isn’t a toddler’s playground.
I’m a bit confused. In what ways are “we” doing nothing while our "friends and family are going over a cliff’? The priests and catechists and other lay Catholics I know do not want our brothers and sisters to perish be they Catholic or protestant or jewish or non religious or any other “ish” you can think of.

And homosexual marriage is a Christian issue, all of my non-Catholic Christian family are fighting this battle shoulder to shoulder with the Church.
 
I’m a bit confused. In what ways are “we” doing nothing while our "friends and family are going over a cliff’? The priests and catechists and other lay Catholics I know do not want our brothers and sisters to perish be they Catholic or protestant or jewish or non religious or any other “ish” you can think of.

And homosexual marriage is a Christian issue, all of my non-Catholic Christian family are fighting this battle shoulder to shoulder with the Church.
I apologize if I was unclear. I don’t think that anyone’s doing nothing, just that we’re not doing enough to remove blame from ourselves collectively, though we constantly blame the culture (as if it’s some huge monolithic entity that’s bent on destroying us).
 
I apologize if I was unclear. I don’t think that anyone’s doing nothing, just that we’re not doing enough to remove blame from ourselves collectively, though we constantly blame the culture (as if it’s some huge monolithic entity that’s bent on destroying us).
As I quoted above, Christ tells us that we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but that it IS a spiritual battle. And Scripture also tells us that we have to do pennance and pray and turn away from evil ourselves.
 
I am debating with a person on Facebook after posting a link to the USCCB’s website about defending marriage. This person wants to know, how is traditional marriage threatened by legalization of same-sex marriage? I quoted liberally from the FAQ for him, but he was unsatisfied with these answers, and concludes that “defend marriage” is merely a shibboleth, or jargon, used by people in the movement. I even gave him the specific example of adoption agencies being forced to close, thus threatening the ability of married couples to add to their families, but of course, he was not satisfied with this answer either.

What would you say? Can you go beyond the FAQ?
Traditional marriage is explicitly procreational. This implies it is naturally and necessarily (and exclusively) a union of man and woman.

Gay “marriage” is obviously contrary to this end, since it is in principle impossible for two men or two women to procreate with one another. Thus the gay “marriage” is irrational and gay “marriage” itself is an ontological non sequitur.

The only way to reconcile this position to rationality is to claim that marriage is NOTHING MORE than a contract – that two consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever they like.

(Of course even this “marriage as a contract” position does not escape irrationality unless you take it to its logical extreme. If marriage is not necessarily procreative, and if consent is the only material requirement, why limit it two people? There’s nothing magical about the number two, after all. Why limit it to two humans – why not a man and an animal? Don’t tell me “because the animal can’t consent”; we don’t get their consent before we slaughter them for meat. This position is NECESSARILY rationally untenable so long as one holds it back from following through to its logical through what Lawrence Auster calls “unprincipled exceptions.”)

But this reductivist position is clearly destructive to the nature of marriage, because it reduces marriage from an institution arising organically and harmoniously from man’s nature to mere raw material to be molded according to the arbitrary dictates of the human will.

THAT is what is meant when people say gay marriage is a threat to traditional marriage: it reduces it nothing more compelling than a manufacturer’s warranty on an old air conditioning unit!
 
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