Defenders Of The Church, Take Your Stand

[Peter_J]

You might also want to check this out.

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

I do agree that there is no salvation outside the Church. However, I also believe there are many who, though outside the visible communion of the one Church through no fault of their own, nevertheless have faith and salvation (something however, I think, Mr. Miller would probably reject). But on such matters we must defer to the Church’s teaching, and not our private interpretation of that teaching.

Um … I think I may be a little confused here. It was you who recommended Adam S. Miller and the Lulu publishing-website. I just said that it’s an “interesting” website.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Um … I think I may be a little confused here. It was you who recommended Adam S. Miller and the Lulu publishing-website. I just said that it’s an “interesting” website.

Not to worry! It is an interesting website and I still recommend it and will continue to do so. But I did want to include that one caveat.

Miller has a lot of very useful information, but I think his stance regarding “no salvation outside the Church,” requires, I believe, some caution. Beyond than, I do not hesitate at all to read and recommend his site to others. I’ve found it very helpful. And he is absolutely correct in saying there is* no salvation outside the Church*. If you get a chance to look at that Wikipedia article, you’ll notice that even the reformers said as much. So it is really a matter of determining just what “outside the Church” actually means. That’s why I included the Augustine quote.

But let me just add one other quote from the saintly Augustine (Letter 185).

Let not, however, things like these disturb you, my beloved son. For it is foretold to us that there must needs be heresies and stumbling-blocks, that we may be instructed among our enemies; and that so both our faith and our love may be the more approved—our faith, namely, that we should not be deceived by them; and our love, that we should take the utmost pains we can to correct the erring ones themselves; not only watching that they should do no injury to the weak, and that they should be delivered from their wicked error, but also praying for them, that God would open their understanding, and that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

For in the sacred books, where the Lord Christ is made manifest,* there is also His Church declared; *

but they, with wondrous blindness, while they would know nothing of Christ Himself save what is revealed in the Scriptures, yet form their notion of His Church from the vanity of human falsehood, instead of learning what it is on the authority of the sacred books.

They recognize Christ together with us in that which is written, “They pierced my hands and my feet. They can tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture;”

and yet they refuse to recognize the Church in that which follows shortly after: “All the ends of the world shall remember, and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord’s; and He is the Governor among the nations.”

They recognize Christ *together with us *in that which is written, “The Lord has said unto me, You are my Son, this day have I begotten You;” and they will not recognize the Church in that which follows: “Ask of me, and I shall give You the heathen for Your inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.”

They recognize Christ together with us in that which the Lord Himself says in the gospel, “Thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day;” and they will not recognize the Church in that which follows: “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” Luke 24:46-47

And the testimonies in the sacred books are without number, all of which it has not been necessary for me to crowd together into this book.

Toward the end of this lengthy letter, he says:

Furthermore, the Catholic Church alone is the body of Christ, of which He is the Head and Saviour of His body. Ephesians 5:23 Outside this body the Holy Spirit gives life to no one seeing that, as the apostle says himself, “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us;” Romans 5:5 but he is not a partaker of the divine love who is the enemy of unity. Therefore they have not the Holy Ghost who are outside the Church; for it is written of them, “They separate themselves being sensual, having not the Spirit.” Jude 19

But neither does he receive it who is insincerely in the Church, since this is also the intent of what is written: “For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee deceit.” Wisdom 1:5

newadvent.org/fathers/1102185.htm

Now I would certainly not, not recommend someone’s site just because there may be some points on it which are debatable.

But the Church, ultimately, is of course the final authority in all such matters. And on that score, I’m sure Mr. Miller would wholeheartedly agree.

I hope this cleared things up a bit. If not, just ask away, I’ll do my best to answer.

 

[Peter_J]

Not to worry! It is an interesting website and I still recommend it and will continue to do so. But I did want to include that one caveat.

Miller has a lot of very useful information, but I think his stance regarding “no salvation outside the Church,” requires, I believe, some caution. Beyond than, I do not hesitate at all to read and recommend his site to others. I’ve found it very helpful.

Yes, I noticed the way his exegesis of Romans 1:8 “helped” you.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Yes, I noticed the way his exegesis of Romans 1:8 “helped” you.