Defending _Goodbye, Good Men_ possible?

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Lion_of_Narnia

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I was in a chat room and got into a discussion regarding the validity of Michael Rose’s book Goodbye, Good Men. The chatter claimed that Rose just did some personal opinions and there was no validity to his charges. To me, trained in historical and general research, the charges of liberal “gatekeepers” in vocation offices and seminaries seemed to be authenticated by Rose’s use of named and anonymous sources, much like any other non-sensationalistic expose. The opposing chatter placed the decling vocations on “breakdown of the catholic family”.

Is Rose hosed or has there been any peer review that supports his assertions?
 
I do not think you can successfully defend it for two reasons.
  1. It is grossly out of date.
  2. It only contained anecdotal information.
There was no scientific study involved, he only wrote about instinences he was told about.

This book kind of does what those who keep showing the abuses of the Mass. They kind of want to tar the whole Mass with the problem when it is not the Mass but those abuseing it that are the problem.

I know a very holy priest who went though one of the seminaries listed and he experienced nothing like what was told about it nor did he find anything even remotely resembling what was said to have occured.
 
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ByzCath:
I do not think you can successfully defend it for two reasons.
  1. It is grossly out of date.
  2. It only contained anecdotal information.
There was no scientific study involved, he only wrote about instinences he was told about.

This book kind of does what those who keep showing the abuses of the Mass. They kind of want to tar the whole Mass with the problem when it is not the Mass but those abuseing it that are the problem.

I know a very holy priest who went though one of the seminaries listed and he experienced nothing like what was told about it nor did he find anything even remotely resembling what was said to have occured.
ByzCath, “I know a very holy priest who…”???

And you accuse?? :confused:

I’ll see your anecdote, and raise you four-- that confirm Rose’s accounts! :tiphat:
 
THe book does show some problems that need to be stopped.

The only priest I knew of mentioned in the book is Father Triglio from EWTN. There was in article somewhere online about how he received some heat for his comments in the book.
 
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jlw:
ByzCath, “I know a very holy priest who…”???

And you accuse?? :confused:

I’ll see your anecdote, and raise you four-- that confirm Rose’s accounts! :tiphat:
And this is exactly the problem with anecdotal information.
 
Lion of Narnia:
I was in a chat room and got into a discussion regarding the validity of Michael Rose’s book Goodbye, Good Men. The chatter claimed that Rose just did some personal opinions and there was no validity to his charges. To me, trained in historical and general research, the charges of liberal “gatekeepers” in vocation offices and seminaries seemed to be authenticated by Rose’s use of named and anonymous sources, much like any other non-sensationalistic expose. The opposing chatter placed the decling vocations on “breakdown of the catholic family”.

Is Rose hosed or has there been any peer review that supports his assertions?
While some seminaries such as Sacred Heart in Detroit have been cleaned up since the events in Goodbye Good Men have taken place, what happens in the book is quite real. The problem that Michael Rose ran into this book is not the true he exposes in his book, but the fact he is not a trained journalist, and his journalism is a little sloppy, but aside from this, the book paints a very bad picture of the seminary life in the 70s-90s period in the US.
 
Much solid journalism is utterly based on anecdotal accounts.

So its a LOT of history.

So are the Gospels.
 
The problem in some seminaries has been documented and written about by a number of others than Michael Rose and so I simply assumed most catholics were aware of it.

An excellent book written by a former seminary rector called Changing Face of the Priesthood bears out many things Rose said.

I particularly liked this book because as a priest of many years the author devoted the first half of it to what changes have occurred in the very role of the priesthood pre and post council - covering specifically what the emphasis of communal meal vs. sacrifice have wrought and in the second half of the book related his experience with formation and the stories of men who had certain seminary memories to talk about. All in all a well written and interesting book written from personal experience.
 
There was a very interesting review in the National Catholic Register, in which the author came down fairly hard on Rose. Rose responded, and the reviewer responded to Rose.

I was left with the very uncomfortable feeling in reading “Goodby Good Men” that Rose had an agenda. By this, I mean that rather than acting as a reporter, digging up the facts and letting the reader decide how bad “bad” is, he was intending to focus on the emotional and do it in a very polemical fashion. He had numerous statements by individuals whose identity he chose to protect, with little or no evidence independent of the statements to back them up. This makes it somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible to verify the statements he reports.

I do not presume that Mr. Rose is untruthful, but I do know that it is possible to report what someone said without getting corroborating information. If that individual was less than truthful or was skewing the truth either for an ideological end or because they only saw things in a certain way, it leaves the reader frustrated, not knowing if he has been told the truth, or a lie, or something even more dangerous - a partial truth.

Most of Mr. Rose’s writing tends toward the inflamatory and polemical in this book. The critique in the Register particularly focused on the depth, or lack of depth, of Mr. Rose’s research. Mr. Rose’s response was that it was footnoted; the response back was that did not answer the critique.

He also focused a tremendous amount on some of the issues, and where there had been a change subsequently, his treatment left the reader with the impression that, perhaps the change was only cosmetic, or not lasting, or insincere.

I do not doubt the substance of his work, nor the fact that much of what he wrote about was undoubtedly true. I was left, however, with the impression that his view was somewhat skewed, and that could be reflected in his writing.

I felt that George Weigel’s book on the abuse was much more even handed, much more scholarly, much more reliable, and much more even-handed. I do not like anecdotal evidence that is not backed up by other evidence.

Let me put it another way: I felt, after reading the book, the same way I have felt after listening to an individual going through a divorce; the story is definitely skewed. It is not that it is untruthful as in a deliberate lie, but I definitely have been told a story by an individual who feels they have been wronged tremendously, and see themselves as the innocent victim. I have no dobut they are the victim, but I also know that they see it only one way. The truth is usually a bit more than their story.
 
Lion of Narnia:
I was in a chat room and got into a discussion regarding the validity of Michael Rose’s book Goodbye, Good Men. The chatter claimed that Rose just did some personal opinions and there was no validity to his charges. To me, trained in historical and general research, the charges of liberal “gatekeepers” in vocation offices and seminaries seemed to be authenticated by Rose’s use of named and anonymous sources, much like any other non-sensationalistic expose. The opposing chatter placed the decling vocations on “breakdown of the catholic family”.

Is Rose hosed or has there been any peer review that supports his assertions?
Keep in mind that Rose is trained as a bookeeper – not as a journalist or as an architect for that matter. He certainly dosen’t appear to show both sides of a situation. He’s a polemicist, not a serious author…

There are plenty of excellent Catholic journalists like George Weigel out there – but someone like Rose is very attractive to today’s shallow, sound-bite mentality…
 
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HagiaSophia:
The problem in some seminaries has been documented and written about by a number of others than Michael Rose and so I simply assumed most catholics were aware of it.

An excellent book written by a former seminary rector called Changing Face of the Priesthood bears out many things Rose said.

I particularly liked this book because as a priest of many years the author devoted the first half of it to what changes have occurred in the very role of the priesthood pre and post council - covering specifically what the emphasis of communal meal vs. sacrifice have wrought and in the second half of the book related his experience with formation and the stories of men who had certain seminary memories to talk about. All in all a well written and interesting book written from personal experience.
I may not have the name or spelling right, but wasn’t that Donald Cousins? and if so, isn’t he the one who said in a nationally reported comment that up to 80% of the priesthood are gay? I have seen other commentaries that indicate that the statistics are significantly lower than that.
 
Nota Bene:
Keep in mind that Rose is trained as a bookeeper – not as a journalist or as an architect for that matter. He certainly dosen’t appear to show both sides of a situation. He’s a polemicist, not a serious author…

There are plenty of excellent Catholic journalists like George Weigel out there – but someone like Rose is very attractive to today’s shallow, sound-bite mentality…
You mean the same George Weigel who says John Paul II is wrong to oppose Bush’s war in Iraq?

I thought only those who go to the Tridentine Mass and read the Baltimore Catechism were against the Holy Father?

Imagine that, a neo-conservative telling the pope how to be Catholic.
 
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otm:
I may not have the name or spelling right, but wasn’t that Donald Cousins? and if so, isn’t he the one who said in a nationally reported comment that up to 80% of the priesthood are gay? I have seen other commentaries that indicate that the statistics are significantly lower than that.
Yes it is Fr. Cozzens and I do not recall that he ever quoted that high of a number, actually I do not recall Cozzens as stating numbers, just discussing the state of seminary life that he knew and had heard about - I believe the person who uses those numbers is the “darling” of SNAP, who writes all the books claiming all kinds of research that no one else ever sees.
 
Anyone who does not think there is a problem with homosexuals in the priesthood and seminaries has not been reading the news the past 3 years. Many, aside from Rose, have admitted there is a big problem with theology that is taught and liberal gatekeepers.

The Vatican is sending a group to visit the seminaries, again, to see if they are being faithful.

The debate is not if there is a problem with dissent and Lavender Mafia types, but how best to eradicate it.
 
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HagiaSophia:
Yes it is Fr. Cozzens and I do not recall that he ever quoted that high of a number, actually I do not recall Cozzens as stating numbers, just discussing the state of seminary life that he knew and had heard about - I believe the person who uses those numbers is the “darling” of SNAP, who writes all the books claiming all kinds of research that no one else ever sees.
Thanks for the spelling. My recollection is that it was attributed to him, but now I am trying to remember where I read that. The attribution made something out of his background, indicating (or at least hinting strongly) that he was a knowledgeable resource. If I was to guess, I would say perhaps an article in the Register, and I recall that there was a researcher, I believe Protestant, at one of the bigger universities mentioned also; he put it in the range of 20%. Not that we will ever have much of a handle on it if those in power don’t want to cooperate in any study.

I’m inclined to think this issue will not be cleaned up in my lifetime.
 
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fix:
Anyone who does not think there is a problem with homosexuals in the priesthood and seminaries has not been reading the news the past 3 years. Many, aside from Rose, have admitted there is a big problem with theology that is taught and liberal gatekeepers.

The Vatican is sending a group to visit the seminaries, again, to see if they are being faithful.

The debate is not if there is a problem with dissent and Lavender Mafia types, but how best to eradicate it.
I don’t suspect that anyone on this thread would say there is no problem. The original question was how trustworthy Rose’s book was. I think there is more than ample evidence that there has been a major problem for a very long time, and no one can claim to know much of the issue beyong their lifetime. This has been an issue for much longer than a series of ordinations post Vatican 2. While there was ws spike in the number of reported incidents of abuse post Vatican 2, anyone knowledgable about sexual abuse would admit that a) much of the abuse is only now coming to light, many years after the actual incidents; b) sexual abuse is the “sin no one talks about”; it is even now often not reported, and it wasn’t until the late 60’s and early 70’s that changes started to be made in the civil laws to push towards reporting abuse.

Having said that, homosexuality started coming out of the closet and developing an agenda over the last 30 to 40 years, and there is no question that homosexuals in the seminaries have turned some of them into a pit no self-respecting viper would crawl, or slither into.

Hopefully the Vatican visitors wil have a way of ferreting out what is really going on. In the past, they have telegraphed their visits, allowing malfactors to clean up their act in advance. The visitors will have to have especially sharp noses, to smell out what has been swept under the rug or into the broom closet.
 
Lion of Narnia:
I was in a chat room and got into a discussion regarding the validity of Michael Rose’s book Goodbye, Good Men. The chatter claimed that Rose just did some personal opinions and there was no validity to his charges. To me, trained in historical and general research, the charges of liberal “gatekeepers” in vocation offices and seminaries seemed to be authenticated by Rose’s use of named and anonymous sources, much like any other non-sensationalistic expose. The opposing chatter placed the decling vocations on “breakdown of the catholic family”.

Is Rose hosed or has there been any peer review that supports his assertions?
Chatter has a way of reaching the lowest common denominator, and too often people are either ignorant of what has been occuring, or uninterested in the complexity of life. It is simplistic at best to start making assertions as to why vocations are down without some thorough knowledge of history, sociology and psychology. There are numerous factors which have impacted vocations, just as there are numerous factors that have impacted the Church. With no disrespect to you, I get really frustrated when self-anointed “experts” start expounding on their pet theory. They are ususally too blind to see that their answers are too often shaped by their prejudices, rather than the facts.
 
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otm:
Chatter has a way of reaching the lowest common denominator, and too often people are either ignorant of what has been occuring, or uninterested in the complexity of life. It is simplistic at best to start making assertions as to why vocations are down without some thorough knowledge of history, sociology and psychology. There are numerous factors which have impacted vocations, just as there are numerous factors that have impacted the Church. With no disrespect to you, I get really frustrated when self-anointed “experts” start expounding on their pet theory. They are ususally too blind to see that their answers are too often shaped by their prejudices, rather than the facts.
This is one of the reasons I was so impressed with Cozzen’s book; not just informative but with a whole new light on some things; while the second half - the part about “life in the seminary” culture got all the PR the first half to me, was dramatic. He covered how the very definition of priest, how the role of the priesthood had been changed and frankly I could understand why we are attracting not too many of the brightest and best as we used to. All in all he, even if one doesn’t agree with him, he had something to think about.
 
Swiss Guard said:
You mean the same George Weigel who says John Paul II is wrong to oppose Bush’s war in Iraq?

I thought only those who go to the Tridentine Mass and read the Baltimore Catechism were against the Holy Father?

Imagine that, a neo-conservative telling the pope how to be Catholic.

I don’t think Weigel was telling the Pope how to be Catholic. He was engaging in a dialogue that the Church (including the Pope he was disagreeing with) says is necessary. Just War is an issue on which there can be differing opinions by faithful Catholics. And I don’t think Weigel said the Pope was wrong to oppose Bush; he said that he disagreed with the Pope’s conclusion.

There is a significant difference between saying the Pope is wrong to oppose Bush, and saying the Pope came to the wrong conclusion. The former says that the Pope has no right to oppose Bush. The latter says that he has a right to oppose Bush. It says something different: “I respect your right to criticize, but I reach a different conclusion as to the justness of the war.”

The Pope’s opposition is something that a faithful Catholic must listen carefully to, and give great weight to, and I am sure that Weigel, a faithful Catholic, gave it great weight. But giving it great weight doesn’t place it in the area of infallibility. Other issues which the Pope may not have addressed could lead to a different conclusion; so could disagreements as to various aspects of how the war might be fought, or how much emphasis to give on various aspects of the decision making process.

Rather than Weigel telling the Pope how to be Catholic, Weigel, along with the Pope, was being Catholic.
 
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