Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-sex “Marriage”

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However, homosexual ‘marriage’ will always be an abomination in the eyes of God, whose laws I did not invent.

Those who are ignorant of such laws may read the encyclical Humanae Vitae, or, if you prefer to watch television, look into The Abundant Life series, with Fr. Wade Menezes as guest:

He will do a much better job of explaining this issue than I ever could.

A sin remains a sin, no matter whose ‘opinion’ it is.
 
Grace & Peace!
Perhaps you should read some of the great thinkers on the subject of sin. It’s very real, even if you don’t agree.
The reality of sin is quite relative, actually. The effects are very real. But sin itself has no positive reality and exists only insofar as we can see the destruction of a good in a good thing. Read Augustine on the relationship of Being and the Good. Evil, having no positive existence, can only be measured by the degree to which the Good is lacking, not to the degree to which Evil is present. You cannot have the presence of an absence. You cannot make a room brighter by removing cupfuls of darkness from the room.
And yes, Buf is correct: every one of our laws is based on God’s law. You would not like the world without it.
With the number of meaningless laws in existence, you may want to consider that you’re not doing God’s law any favors by saying that civil law is a direct reflection of divine ordinance.

The connection between civil law and divine law, moreover, is largely coincidental. The exigencies of statecraft and the accumulation of military and economic power largely determine what is and is not law. Civil law, as a secular institution, largely reflects the interests which led to the Fall–seeking power, acquiring it, and keeping it. Divine law has no such interest in mind. For the state to say, “stealing is a crime” is the state saying that private property (a form of power) has value and should be protected–those who have should be protected from those who do not have. But within limits, understand–other laws will be written to allow those with the power, know-how and resources to game the system. I believe it was Bertolt Brecht who said, “robbing a bank is nothing compared to founding one.”

However, for God to say, “do not steal,” we are being told (in part) that material things should never be valued above the good of others and that envy of others’ goods is a deadly disease.

Or, as Simone Weil indicates, when we insist that good and evil are on opposite ends of a moral continuum, we degrade the good by insisting it is related to evil. We wind up believing that bourgeois values are equivalent to moral good–that the banker is necessarily better than the thief.
The hate crimes bill, by the way, does the opposite of protecting religious freedom. Unless your religion happens to be atheism.
I, too, would be interested in seeing this statement explicated.
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buffalo:
In our society the majority has the right to decide what is in its best interests. If the majority decide that “gay” marriage is unhealthy then so be it.
You must be familiar with the idea of the tyranny of the majority. You must also realize that what you have said is an endorsement of the moral formula, “might makes right.” As a Roman Catholic, you must furthermore realize that “might makes right” is the weakest and most corrupt of moral formulae. Which is why it is surprising that you endorse it. God is not Good because he can destroy us. God is Good because he loves us so much that he is willing to bleed, suffer, and die for us.

In the gay marriage debate, I wonder why we have yet to openly acknowledge some of the real forces behind why we have come to believe what we believe, on both sides of the issue: our images and expectations of gender; the definitions of masculinity and femininity; the basic threat which a “feminized” male (or a “masculinized” female) poses to commonly accepted notions of masculinity and the degree to which such notions speak to broader issues of authority, submission and power–who has it, who can have it, and who we believe should never have it.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
The need to obey God’s word still stands, no matter who argues the ‘cause’ or over-intellectualizes it.

There is no relativism in it, not one drop. This is not a matter of opinion but fact. God cannot lie.
 
Nope. They want the government to force everyone to accept them. They are already free to have a wedding and all that, (not sure if that’s a good idea or not) just not to have it government recognised and enforced. When it is government recognised, like in MA, bad stuff happens. For instance, they shut down catholic orphanages. I
How did gay marriage cause a shutdown of Catholic orphanages?
 
In our society the majority has the right to decide what is in its best interests. If the majority decide that “gay” marriage is unhealthy then so be it.
Until the Constitution is changed, a majority does not have the power to impose its will if that imposition is contrary to the Constitution.

However, it does have the power to change the Constitution. And as demographics change, changes can be undone.
 
Nope. They want the government to force everyone to accept them. They are already free to have a wedding and all that, (not sure if that’s a good idea or not) just not to have it government recognised and enforced. When it is government recognised, like in MA, bad stuff happens. For instance, they shut down catholic orphanages. I
How does the government force me to accept gays?

How do I act if I accept them?

How do I act if I do not accept them?

What is the difference?
 
In our society the majority has the right to decide what is in its best interests. If the majority decide that “gay” marriage is unhealthy then so be it.
Nah, what you propose is tyranny of the majority. Such an approach would have supported the Jim Crow policies of the US South, prior to the black civil rights movement. Just because the majority of voters support something doesn’t mean that it is moral.
 
Oh, we’re not going to go round and round with this again, are we?

(1) The freedom to associate is a civil right and an aspect of the right to privacy, but the institution of marriage is not a civil right. The State (gov’t) has the right to set the boundaries and requirements for marriage, given that children are implied as a potential outcome, and future children have a value to the nation. Marriage and the children deriving therefrom is a social structure which benefits society. Thus, the government has a legitimate interest in setting marriage norms.

(2) The term “right” has been corrupted and expanded in the last 30 years, to the point where it has lost its meaning as intrinsic privilege and instead come to mean a claim artificially seized. There was a discussion of this briefly on Friday or Saturday on CA radio by Tom someone.

(3) Illegitimate & immoral discrimination on the basis of race, with respect to intrinsic, universal privileges, cannot be compared with restrictions to marriage on the basis of the normative biological unit.
 
Nah, what you propose is tyranny of the majority. Such an approach would have supported the Jim Crow policies of the US South, prior to the black civil rights movement. Just because the majority of voters support something doesn’t mean that it is moral.
I support the “tyranny” of Catholic morality. Don’t get these confused.
 
Oh, we’re not going to go round and round with this again, are we?

(1) The freedom to associate is a civil right and an aspect of the right to privacy, but the institution of marriage is not a civil right. The State (gov’t) has the right to set the boundaries and requirements for marriage, given that children are implied as a potential outcome, and future children have a value to the nation. Marriage and the children deriving therefrom is a social structure which benefits society. Thus, the government has a legitimate interest in setting marriage norms.

(2) The term “right” has been corrupted and expanded in the last 30 years, to the point where it has lost its meaning as intrinsic privilege and instead come to mean a claim artificially seized. There was a discussion of this briefly on Friday or Saturday on CA radio by Tom someone.

(3) Illegitimate & immoral discrimination on the basis of race, with respect to intrinsic, universal privileges, cannot be compared with restrictions to marriage on the basis of the normative biological unit.
  1. Children are not mentioned in state law as a condition of marriage. Some may think they are, but state law doesn’t say so, nor does it bar anyone who professes they will not have chldren.
  2. The state does have an interest in regulating marriage, and it is free to change those regulations.
  3. We all have a right to equal treatment under law. When marriage laws are changed, gays have a right to marry under state law. Before that they don’t.
  4. Restrictions on same sex marriage are a function of law. Change the law, and there are no restrictions.
 
Grace & Peace!
The need to obey God’s word still stands, no matter who argues the ‘cause’ or over-intellectualizes it.

There is no relativism in it, not one drop. This is not a matter of opinion but fact. God cannot lie.
I’m not sure you quite understood my post. But that’s fine.

I agree that the need to obey God’s word still stands. Keep in mind, though, that my initial post here arose out of your confusion of civil law and divine law. If maintaining that distinction is over-intellectualizing, call me guilty. But I think a little over-intellectualizing might be useful here. Otherwise, things like the law in New York City that you cannot shoot at rabbits from a 3rd Avenue streetcar could be mistaken for divine ordinance–which would seem pretty odd given that the 3rd Ave streetcar no longer exists and the chance of spotting a rabbit on 3rd Ave is extraordinarily remote.

Regarding relativism, you do yourself no favors when you simply react to what has come to be a buzzword: relative. We were not discussing the philosophy of relativism, to my knowledge. Nevertheless, the reality of sin is in fact relative–it has no positive reality. It does not exist as the good exists. You can recognize it’s presence only by the absence of the good. I am not advocating the “philosophy” of relativism, but am discussing the ontology of evil, such as it is–and one of its properties is that its “being” is relative to the good. The fact that evil or sin is wrong is not relative. The reality of its “existence,” however, is.

Consider for a moment that if evil had a positive existence, then its relationship to the good would be equivalent to the relationship between one quality of being and another. If evil were simply a quality of being, then saying that something is evil would be like saying the grass is green, the sky is blue, squares have four ninety degree angles, and a pentagon has five points. Morality becomes largely aesthetic, a lifestyle choice, a pattern to match the curtains, a better pile of rug, and loses all moral value!

I hope this helps to clarify the points made in my previous post.

I think the larger issue remains, however: In the gay marriage debate, I wonder why we have yet to openly acknowledge some of the real forces behind why we have come to believe what we believe, on both sides of the issue: our images and expectations of gender; the definitions of masculinity and femininity; the basic threat which a “feminized” male (or a “masculinized” female) poses to commonly accepted notions of masculinity and the degree to which such notions speak to broader issues of authority, submission and power–who has it, who can have it, and who we believe should never have it.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

I think the larger issue remains, however: In the gay marriage debate, I wonder why we have yet to openly acknowledge some of the real forces behind why we have come to believe what we believe, on both sides of the issue: our images and expectations of gender; the definitions of masculinity and femininity; the basic threat which a “feminized” male (or a “masculinized” female) poses to commonly accepted notions of masculinity and the degree to which such notions speak to broader issues of authority, submission and power–who has it, who can have it, and who we believe should never have it.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
I have a speculation that much of the hostility to gay marriage has been passed down since the days when we lived in groups of twenty huddled around the camp fire and surviving on a day to day basis.

The group could not afford to have members who didn’t procreate. It would die out. It was simple. You have enough kids that some survive or we all die. That would be a somewhat strong message.

(For those who want proof, note it’s a speculation.)
 
Grace & Peace!
I have a speculation that much of the hostility to gay marriage has been passed down since the days when we lived in groups of twenty huddled around the camp fire and surviving on a day to day basis.

The group could not afford to have members who didn’t procreate. It would die out. It was simple. You have enough kids that some survive or we all die. That would be a somewhat strong message.

(For those who want proof, note it’s a speculation.)
I’m less convinced its about nature or procreation than it is about what masculinity and femininity mean to us, or what their cultural value happens to be with respect to each other. In other words, I think its about power.

In the early 20th century, it was not unremarkable in London, for instance, for upper or middle class men to have sexual encounters with working class men they would pick up in parks or various neighborhoods known for the availability of such encounters. The interesting thing about these “relationships” is that they were, again, entirely unremarkable and could even be boasted of in public. The reasons?

It had everything to do with playing out a particular masculine identity. From the working class perspective, the upper classes were effete and feminine. This was a way that they could perform their masculinity and demonstrate even a certain kind of moral superiority over the upper classes. They could even make a little money off the situation. Needless to say they generally assumed the active role in whatever sexual encounter they had.

What allowed this playing out was a relatively sexually segregated society resulting in all-male work and living situations in which sexual aggression, tension, and competitiveness required a social outlet. Whether or not one was homosexual or heterosexual had little to do with it–it had to do with performing masculinity.

As economic situations changed and as women entered the workforce more visibly, the ways in which masculinity was understood and performed changed and the sort of behavior described above began to decline (though it did not completely vanish), in particular, it began to decline as a practice in which a “real man” would engage.

As homosexual men began to define themselves as homosexuals, they were naturally seen as less than male and therefore broken in some way. In terms of power, the culture saw them as more aligned with women (submissive, passive) than with men (powerful, active). This is why such things as women’s liberation and feminism had a strong impact on the homosexual rights movement. The latter would not be possible without the former because of the equivalence in socio-cultural power between women and homosexuals.

The taboo being broken here is principally this one: confusion of differing hierarchical terms. Most ancient tragedies spring from just such a confusion (Oedipus–mother’s son cannot be mother’s husband; Seven Against Thebes–twin sons vying for the throne cannot be identical in power; Women of Trachis–the mistress cannot be on the same level as the wife). In the case of homosexuality masculine power cannot be equated to feminine submission.

How do we account for the persistence of this taboo in the era of equal rights? Atavism, in part, aided by a religious misunderstanding–how else to account for the taboo’s persitence in a predominantly Christian culture when in Christ there is no male or female? When Paul writes of homosexual behavior in Romans 1, I am convinced that he is not condemning homosexuals or every sort of homosexual behavior per se. What he’s doing is condemning being controlled by passions–he condemns a lack of self-control. But we continue to insist that he is condemning what they are doing as well as the sin of which the behavior is a manifestation–lack of self control, the valuing of self over others, the valuing of pleasure over responsibility, the valuing of the creature over the creation. If Paul were to condemn the London park-goers of the early twentieth century, he would not condemn them for their homosexual behavior, but for their lack of self-control.

Which brings up how that behavior, whether it is right or wrong, is entirely a cultural construct. There is a particular tribe in which young men, as part of their rite of passage, are required to have oral sex with the elders of the tribe in order to become men. In reality, though, sex is not the point–the tribe believes that the capacity to have children, to engender children, must be received from the elders. The youth do not have seed to plant in a wife until they receive it from the elders. This particular practice is “homosexual behavior” in appearance only–what is at stake is the continuance of the tribe, its culture, and its members. Why? Because this is how masculinity has been defined by this people.

Again, I think the uproar against homosexual marriage and homosexuality in general has to do with power issues–in groups, out groups, male power and female powerlessness.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

I’m less convinced its about nature or procreation than it is about what masculinity and femininity mean to us, or what their cultural value happens to be with respect to each other. In other words, I think its about power.

In the early 20th century, it was not unremarkable in London, for instance, for upper or middle class men to have sexual encounters with working class men they would pick up in parks or various neighborhoods known for the availability of such encounters. The interesting thing about these “relationships” is that they were, again, entirely unremarkable and could even be boasted of in public. The reasons?

It had everything to do with playing out a particular masculine identity. From the working class perspective, the upper classes were effete and feminine. This was a way that they could perform their masculinity and demonstrate even a certain kind of moral superiority over the upper classes. They could even make a little money off the situation. Needless to say they generally assumed the active role in whatever sexual encounter they had.

What allowed this playing out was a relatively sexually segregated society resulting in all-male work and living situations in which sexual aggression, tension, and competitiveness required a social outlet. Whether or not one was homosexual or heterosexual had little to do with it–it had to do with performing masculinity.

As economic situations changed and as women entered the workforce more visibly, the ways in which masculinity was understood and performed changed and the sort of behavior described above began to decline (though it did not completely vanish), in particular, it began to decline as a practice in which a “real man” would engage.

As homosexual men began to define themselves as homosexuals, they were naturally seen as less than male and therefore broken in some way. In terms of power, the culture saw them as more aligned with women (submissive, passive) than with men (powerful, active). This is why such things as women’s liberation and feminism had a strong impact on the homosexual rights movement. The latter would not be possible without the former because of the equivalence in socio-cultural power between women and homosexuals.

The taboo being broken here is principally this one: confusion of differing hierarchical terms. Most ancient tragedies spring from just such a confusion (Oedipus–mother’s son cannot be mother’s husband; Seven Against Thebes–twin sons vying for the throne cannot be identical in power; Women of Trachis–the mistress cannot be on the same level as the wife). In the case of homosexuality masculine power cannot be equated to feminine submission.

How do we account for the persistence of this taboo in the era of equal rights? Atavism, in part, aided by a religious misunderstanding–how else to account for the taboo’s persitence in a predominantly Christian culture when in Christ there is no male or female? When Paul writes of homosexual behavior in Romans 1, I am convinced that he is not condemning homosexuals or every sort of homosexual behavior per se. What he’s doing is condemning being controlled by passions–he condemns a lack of self-control. But we continue to insist that he is condemning what they are doing as well as the sin of which the behavior is a manifestation–lack of self control, the valuing of self over others, the valuing of pleasure over responsibility, the valuing of the creature over the creation. If Paul were to condemn the London park-goers of the early twentieth century, he would not condemn them for their homosexual behavior, but for their lack of self-control.

Which brings up how that behavior, whether it is right or wrong, is entirely a cultural construct. There is a particular tribe in which young men, as part of their rite of passage, are required to have oral sex with the elders of the tribe in order to become men. In reality, though, sex is not the point–the tribe believes that the capacity to have children, to engender children, must be received from the elders. The youth do not have seed to plant in a wife until they receive it from the elders. This particular practice is “homosexual behavior” in appearance only–what is at stake is the continuance of the tribe, its culture, and its members. Why? Because this is how masculinity has been defined by this people.

Again, I think the uproar against homosexual marriage and homosexuality in general has to do with power issues–in groups, out groups, male power and female powerlessness.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
I certainly wouldn’t dispute pwer issues are at play. They are in everything else, so why not here,too. Note the increase in homosexual acceptance at the same time women are increasing their real power. Powerful women mean power isn’t an exclusively male domain.

One thing about the issue I wonder about - and don’t have the data to determine - is whether societies fenced off homosexuality either by an age cut off, or social distance. For example, the tribe you mention would seem to have age barriers: young, then elder. The London folks had a social barrier: they didn’t bring it home. I wonder if we have examples of societies where homosexuality was accepted as an exclusive lifestyle at all levels of both age and society, since that seems to be the direction of the movement now.
 
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