Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-sex “Marriage”

[Other_Eric]

Yes - collateral incest is regulated by canon law and could be changed.

Perhaps you need to study up on this.

Excuse me?

You shall not have intercourse with your sister, your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in your own household or born elsewhere. You shall not have intercourse with your son’s daughter or with your daughter’s daughter, for that would be a disgrace to your own family. You shall not have intercourse with the daughter whom your father’s wife bore to him, since she, too, is your sister.(1)

This prohibition is based on the same authority as the prohibition agqainst same-sex sexual acts and is formally cited by the Church when she observes:

*ncest designates intimate relations between relatives or in-laws within a degree that prohibits marriage between them. (2) *There is no distinction made between collateral incest and other forms. This is not a mere discipline that can be done away with by the stroke of a pope’s hand. This is an indelible feature of the Natural Law, written on the heart of every man, that it seems you ought to study up on.

(1) New American Bible. Washington D.C.: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2002. Lev 18:9-11. Available online at: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/leviticus/leviticus18.htm

(2) Catechism of the Catholic Church. Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1993. ¶ 2388. Available online at: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P87.HTM

 

[Other_Eric]

Can you show us the Church teaching that indicates a gay who wants a 24" lawn mower has a depraved desire for such lawn mower?

Perhaps you ought to reread the document linked to at the beginning of this thread which identifies the psychological depravity those with same-sex attractions have succumbed to.

 

[WillieWonka]

Perhaps you ought to reread the document linked to at the beginning of this thread which identifies the psychological depravity those with same-sex attractions have succumbed to.

Well, you made the claim about depravity and the 24" lawn mower, so I ask you.

Does that means there is no Church teaching that says a gay who wants a 24" lawn mower has a utterly depraved desire for a 24" lawn mower?

How about a gay who wants breakfast? Utterly depraved?

How about gay who wants a bible? Is that an utterly depraved desire, too?

 

[Other_Eric]

Well, you made the claim about depravity and the 24" lawn mower, so I ask you.

Does that means there is no Church teaching that says a gay who wants a 24" lawn mower has a utterly depraved desire for a 24" lawn mower?

How about a gay who wants breakfast? Utterly depraved?

How about gay who wants a bible? Is that an utterly depraved desire, too?

No, you were the one who brought up the lawnmower. I made a universal claim about the desires of those with same-sex attractions. Every desire such a man has is depraved, be it for a lawnmower, a promotion at work or an ice cream sundae. Such desires are necessarily self-centered, hedonistic and insular based on the psychology inherent to the experience of same-sex attractions.

 

[WillieWonka]

No, you were the one who brought up the lawnmower. I made a universal claim about the desires of those with same-sex attractions. Every desire such a man has is depraved, be it for a lawnmower, a promotion at work or an ice cream sundae. Such desires are necessarily self-centered, hedonistic and insular based on the psychology inherent to the experience of same-sex attractions.

I did bring up the 24"lawn mower, and you then said that desire utterly depraved.

Now, can you just point us to the Church teaching that backs you up?

How about that gay who wants a bible? Utterly depraved?

 

[Other_Eric]

I did bring up the 24"lawn mower, and you then said that desire utterly depraved.

Now, can you just point us to the Church teaching that backs you up?

How about that gay who wants a bible? Utterly depraved?

Do you have a problem with comprehending my point? It doesn’t matter what the desire is. If the individual possesses same-sex attraction, the desire is necessarily depraved. Will you not be satisfied until you have received an affirmative for every specific your mind can conjure?

 

[WillieWonka]

Do you have a problem with comprehending my point? It doesn’t matter what the desire is. If the individual possesses same-sex attraction, the desire is necessarily depraved. Will you not be satisfied until you have received an affirmative for every specific your mind can conjure?

I have no problem at all comprehending it. I just don’t think Church teaching agrees with you.

So, can you show us the official Church teaching that backs you up? If not, then I’d say it is your personal opinion. An interesting opinion, but a personal one.

And how about that bible? Is a desire for a bible utterly depraved if desired by a gay? Lunch? World peace? Salvation? Snickers Bar?

 

[Other_Eric]

I have no problem at all comprehending it. I just don’t think Church teaching agrees with you.

So, can you show us the official Church teaching that backs you up? If not, then I’d say it is your personal opinion. An interesting opinion, but a personal one.

And how about that bible? Is a desire for a bible utterly depraved if desired by a gay? Lunch? World peace? Salvation? Snickers Bar?

It seems you still need a list of specifics. Let me know when you are satisfied or understand the meaning of “every desire.”

Desire for a Bible: utterly depraved.

Desire for lunch: utterly depraved.

Desire for World Peace: utterly depraved.

Desire for “salvation”: utterly depraved.

Desire for a Snickers Bar: utterly depraved.

 

[WillieWonka]

It seems you still need a list of specifics. Let me know when you are satisfied or understand the meaning of “every desire.”

Desire for a Bible: utterly depraved.

Desire for lunch: utterly depraved.

Desire for World Peace: utterly depraved.

Desire for “salvation”: utterly depraved.

Desire for a Snickers Bar: utterly depraved.

Now can you show us the official Church teaching that backs you up? Otherwise, your opinion is interesting, but just one among many.

 

[Other_Eric]

Now can you show us the official Church teaching that backs you up? Otherwise, your opinion is interesting, but just one among many.

The teaching of the Church on this matter is clear and has been repeated innumerable times. Let us pick just one example where this teaching is not only reiterated but takes clear, unequivocal form in the Church's prohibition on the ordination of any who experience same-sex attractions *regardless of behavior*.

The Church teaches that “[t]he priest is above all a servant of others, and he must continually work at being a sign pointing to Christ, a docile instrument in the Lord’s hands.” (1) The individual with same-sex attractions is unable to achieve this ideal by virtue of the utter depravity inherent to his condition. " Such people, by virtue of the impulse, regardless of whether it is acted upon or not lack “affective maturity” and are psychologically incapable of ministering to their flock." (2) The desire, even to serve the Church is therefore utterly depraved.

The man who possesses same-sex attractions has one choice and one choice only: to accept the redemptive and healing graces won by Christ on the Cross and thereby become heterosexual. Should he remain obstinate, his every action becomes twisted and evil.

(1) Benedict XVI. Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation: Sacramentum Caritatis. Rome: February 22, 2007. §23, #2. Available online at: vatican.va/holy_father/be…the_Sacraments

(2) Grocholewski, Zenon. Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with Regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in View of Their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders. Rome: Congregation for Catholic Education, November 4, 2005. §1. Available online at: vatican.va/roman_curia/co…uzione_en.html

 

[WillieWonka]

The teaching of the Church on this matter is clear and has been repeated innumerable times. Let us pick just one example where this teaching is not only reiterated but takes clear, unequivocal form in the Church’s prohibition on the ordination of any who experience same-sex attractions regardless of behavior.

The Church teaches that “[t]he priest is above all a servant of others, and he must continually work at being a sign pointing to Christ, a docile instrument in the Lord’s hands.” (1) The individual with same-sex attractions is unable to achieve this ideal by virtue of the utter depravity inherent to his condition. " Such people, by virtue of the impulse, regardless of whether it is acted upon or not lack “affective maturity” and are psychologically incapable of ministering to their flock." (2) The desire, even to serve the Church is therefore utterly depraved.

The man who possesses same-sex attractions has one choice and one choice only: to accept the redemptive and healing graces won by Christ on the Cross and thereby become heterosexual. Should he remain obstinate, his every action becomes twisted and evil.

(1) Benedict XVI. Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation: Sacramentum Caritatis. Rome: February 22, 2007. §23, #2. Available online at: vatican.va/holy_father/be…the_Sacraments

(2) Grocholewski, Zenon. Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with Regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in View of Their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders. Rome: Congregation for Catholic Education, November 4, 2005. §1. Available online at: vatican.va/roman_curia/co…uzione_en.html

The parts you quoted don’t say anything about utter depravity of all dsires of a gay, nor do the documents from which the quotes were taken. You added your own words in between the sections quoted from Benedict and Grocholewski. I have bolded your added words. You added your opinion and are trying to pass it off as teaching of the pope and the Congregation for Catholic Education…

You have not shown official Church teaching that backs up your claim that all desires of a gay are utterly depraved. You have told us your opinion, which is one among many.

Please show an official Church teaching that indicates a gay’s desire for a 24" lawn mower is utterly depraved.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

There is no document that says Catholics interpret in a strict literal sense. Catholics interpret the Bible as follows:

III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE
109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75
110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78
[112](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/112.htm’) 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80
[113](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/113.htm’) 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).
[114](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/114.htm’) 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
The senses of Scripture
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two *senses *of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

[116](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/116.htm’) The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83
[117](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/117.htm’) The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses: The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87 [119](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/119.htm’) "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgment. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88

But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89

We must listen to the long standing of the Church which I have provided.

So then why do you interpret Scripture like a Baptist? Catholics understand that while the Bible is inerrant in matters of salvation, they also understand that the authors were limited in scientific knowledge. Catholics also understand that the authors of the Bible did not write historical documents the way we understand historical documents today.

Whether there were literally two people named Adam and Eve does NOT change the salvation aspect of the story, that we were created in the image and likeness of God.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Again, nothing good can come of egging people on in their mortal sins.

New ENDA bill ‘turns private sin into a public right’
Jim Brown - OneNewsNow - 8/7/2009 7:20:00 AM
A conservative Christian leader says a Senate bill that would ban job discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity “turns private sin into a public right.”

Senator Jeff Merkley (D-Oregon) has introduced a new version of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) that would add perceived and actual sexual orientation and gender identity to categories protected under federal law against discrimination. Proponents of the legislation call it a “fully inclusive” ENDA because it contains “gender identity” in the language. Democrats have been divided over whether the legislation should protect transsexuals and cross-dressers in addition to homosexuals.

Robert Knight, the senior writer for Coral Ridge Ministries, says the Merkley ENDA bill is more dangerous than previous versions because it includes gender identity.

“It takes away the idea that sex is created by God in two different categories – male and female – and it makes it entirely a radical, self-determined persona. The larger problem of this is it turns private sin into a public right,” he contends. “It puts Christian and Jewish employers on the defensive, saying that if you don’t give in and accord civil-rights privileges based on behavior that you know is sinful, ‘We’re coming after you. We’re going to fine you. We’re going to punish you.’”

 

[WillieWonka]

Again, nothing good can come of egging people on in their mortal sins.

That’s the same bill that extends protection to Catholics.

 

[buffalo]

So then why do you interpret Scripture like a Baptist? Catholics understand that while the Bible is inerrant in matters of salvation, they also understand that the authors were limited in scientific knowledge. Catholics also understand that the authors of the Bible did not write historical documents the way we understand historical documents today.

Whether there were literally two people named Adam and Eve does NOT change the salvation aspect of the story, that we were created in the image and likeness of God.

As I have stated before I understand the Bible as the Church has constantly taught and believed. I have shown and documented it over and over on these forums for several years. There is no doubt what the Church believes. Some need to get up to date.

Are we to believe that God could not embed in His Word in Genesis to be valid for all ages? It is this very fact that Genesis is written in a simple straightforward way that is good for all ages.

Arguing that God could not know the future and how to craft His Word is silly.

 

[Benadam]

Originally Posted by mkingdomlvr
Whether there were literally two people named Adam and Eve does NOT change the salvation aspect of the story, that we were created in the image and likeness of God.

this statement

we were created in the image and likeness of God.

makes this unavoidably true.

there were literally two(first) people

 

[WillieWonka]

this statement

makes this unavoidably true.

Why is it unavoidable?

 

[Benadam]

Why is it unavoidable?

Because it is being that is unambiguously defined. No gray area about it. It’s an either or, either it is or it is not. That being so, an archetype is unavoidable.

 

[WillieWonka]

Because it is being that is unambiguously defined. No gray area about it. It’s an either or, either it is or it is not. That being so, an archetype is unavoidable.

I’d say the image of God would demand three parents and an integrated unity of spiritual being consistent with an individualized yet autonomous inherent connection to extrinsic divinity. Nothing gray about that archtypical pattern of abstract unambiguity.

So, Adam, Eve, and Steve.

 

[buffalo]

I’d say the image of God would demand three parents and an integrated unity of spiritual being consistent with an individualized yet autonomous inherent connection to extrinsic divinity. Nothing gray about that archtypical pattern of abstract unambiguity.

So, Adam, Eve, and Steve.

Except - “male and female He created them”. Sorry no Steve.