Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-sex “Marriage”

[mkingdomlvr]

The assertion has been made repeatedly on this thread that gay marriage is not about civil rights because homosexuality is a choice. You have continued that assertion in your rather lengthy justification in lieu of an answer to a very honest question.

As a homosexual who does not recall making such a choice, I would like to understand this processing of choosing one’s orientation. If you’re going to use the “homosexuality is a choice” argument against gay marriage, then you should be able to answer a question about it.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I have just learned that I possess a saintly virtue. I become infuriated when confronted by lies.

Some of you have been claiming that if any of us here on this thread discovered one of our children was homosexual, we would immediately support homosexual ‘marriage’.

This would be the farthest thing from love in existence. “I’ve just found out you are homosexual, so I suudenly want to support behavior that is mortally sinful, just so you can be temporarily happy!”

This doesn’t even make sense on a secular level. Homosexuals are not ‘gay.’ Since we are all called to God, on some level, they know that the acts are wrong.

Mortally sinful behavior can never make anyone happy. It will never get anyone to heaven. And it is by its very nature a LIE.

 

[buffalo]

We should also remember the Chruch has no authority over our society, and its history provides no reason for society to look to it for leadership. It hasn’t shown itself to be any better or any worse than the average.

Bogus alert!

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I have just learned that I possess a saintly virtue. I become infuriated when confronted by lies.

Some of you have been claiming that if any of us here on this thread discovered one of our children was homosexual, we would immediately support homosexual ‘marriage’.

This would be the farthest thing from love in existence. “I’ve just found out you are homosexual, so I suudenly want to support behavior that is mortally sinful, just so you can be temporarily happy!”

This doesn’t even make sense on a secular level. Homosexuals are not ‘gay.’ Since we are all called to God, on some level, they know that the acts are wrong.

Mortally sinful behavior can never make anyone happy. It will never get anyone to heaven. And it is by its very nature a LIE.

Actually I don’t think that at all. I think that there are far more Catholics and other religious parents who would disown their gay children than those who would change their opinion on gay marriage.

 

[buffalo]

I’m still waiting for a straight person to answer the simple question: “When did you choose your orientation?” I would be very interested in this idea of “choice”, because I don’t recall making one and I have a pretty good memory. Perhaps if one of these straight folks that are so convinced that sexual orientation is a choice explained their process of choosing who they are attracted to, maybe I would understand better.

What you describe is the main reason why so many of my friends do not understand why I would choose to return to the Catholic church and live under those rules. It’s obvious to them that the Church places restrictions on us that she places on nobody else. The command for a single straight person to be chaste is nothing at all like the command that the gay person remain celibate. For the straight person, that condition isn’t forever, they can marry and the requirement ends. For us, it only ends with our death.

The Catholic proposition is not an easy one. If one is looking for the easy way it doesn’t exist, although many are fooled into opting for something they think does.

I give you much credit.

Chastity - we are called to be chaste in marriage. Say my wife becomes disabled, I am called to remain celibate. This condition remains until my wife would pass.

 

[buffalo]

I think I hear crickets chirping…

That is because most don’t wake up one day and declare - I think I want to practice homosexuality. It is not as discrete as that.

Since this happens at an early age most would not even remember it.

 

[buffalo]

The assertion has been made repeatedly on this thread that gay marriage is not about civil rights because homosexuality is a choice. You have continued that assertion in your rather lengthy justification in lieu of an answer to a very honest question.

As a homosexual who does not recall making such a choice, I would like to understand this processing of choosing one’s orientation. If you’re going to use the “homosexuality is a choice” argument against gay marriage, then you should be able to answer a question about it.

Each and every homosexual makes a choice - to act on it or not. A thief with burglary tendencies still makes a choice whether to act on these tendencies. It is the same for all deviant habits.

 

[buffalo]

Actually I don’t think that at all. I think that there are far more Catholics and other religious parents who would disown their gay children than those who would change their opinion on gay marriage.

I might ostracize my child for any number of lifestyle choices. It is not limited to the practice of homosexuality.

 

[gearhead]

(2) Sexual attraction is a complex result of many factors, a very large number of which include environmental factors – positive & negative – which shape the individual. To date, scientists have not been able to locate any “gay gene,” despite the very sophisticated state of the science of genetics today.

Genetics doesn’t work that way. There won’t be a single “gay gene”; genes work together in complex way.

However, all the research done so far has pointed to sexual orientation being a result of two factors:

• genetics
• pre-natal environment… i.e. hormones received by the fetus from the mother

In any case, behavioural studies have found that sexual orientation has been fixed by the time a child is capable of participating in a behavioural study (i.e around 5 years old).

(3) Use the search feature on CAF to find lengthy discussions on #2. This thread is not about the origins of SSA, but about the legal position of gay “marriage.”

And to add to that, this thread also isn’t about whether homosexuality is good or bad, it’s about how it should be addressed by society, given that it exists.

I have just learned that I possess a saintly virtue. I become infuriated when confronted by lies.

Some of you have been claiming that if any of us here on this thread discovered one of our children was homosexual, we would immediately support homosexual ‘marriage’.

This would be the farthest thing from love in existence. “I’ve just found out you are homosexual, so I suudenly want to support behavior that is mortally sinful, just so you can be temporarily happy!”

This doesn’t even make sense on a secular level. Homosexuals are not ‘gay.’ Since we are all called to God, on some level, they know that the acts are wrong.

Mortally sinful behavior can never make anyone happy. It will never get anyone to heaven. And it is by its very nature a LIE.

I think it’s not so much the expectation that you’d decide to go against your beliefs, I think it’s more the hope that when there’s a human face who you care about on the receiving end of your actions, you’d recognize the beliefs behind those actions as cruel and change them.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The assertion has been made repeatedly on this thread that gay marriage is not about civil rights because homosexuality is a choice. You have continued that assertion in your rather lengthy justification in lieu of an answer to a very honest question.

As a homosexual who does not recall making such a choice, I would like to understand this processing of choosing one’s orientation. If you’re going to use the “homosexuality is a choice” argument against gay marriage, then you should be able to answer a question about it.

I don’t know who the heck you’re speaking to, because “you” could be singular or plural. It’s considered helpful for debate when you either address a poster by screen name, or quote their reply, when replying.

But if you’re speaking to me…

As I mentioned (my reply wasn’t “lengthy”), attraction is a different phenomenon than choice (or acting on the attraction). Lots of straight people are attracted to the idea of adultery, but don’t do it. Lots of straight people are attracted to fornication; they don’t do it. Similarly with lots of other attractions which require self-control. Monks and other religious who enter a lifestyle of celibacy/chastity also choose not to indulge their sexual appetites. It’s actually possible. They may be attracted (oriented) toward women or toward men; but thousands of them throughout the centuries have been able to keep their appetites in check.

If you buy that attraction = determinism, then your question has merit. If you don’t buy the underlying premise of your question (I don’t), then it’s meaningless “when” a person “chose” or did not choose to “be” straight/gay. The whole concept of “being” straight or gay is not one that the Roman Catholic Church accepts, as being is a philosophical concept, whereas sexual behavior involves free will. If no one is forcing you, you are free to say yes or no.

 

[buffalo]

Genetics doesn’t work that way. There won’t be a single “gay gene”; genes work together in complex way.

However, all the research done so far has pointed to sexual orientation being a result of two factors:

• genetics
• pre-natal environment… i.e. hormones received by the fetus from the mother

In any case, behavioural studies have found that sexual orientation has been fixed by the time a child is capable of participating in a behavioural study (i.e around 5 years old).

And to add to that, this thread also isn’t about whether homosexuality is good or bad, it’s about how it should be addressed by society, given that it exists.

I think it’s not so much the expectation that you’d decide to go against your beliefs, I think it’s more the hope that when there’s a human face who you care about on the receiving end of your actions, you’d recognize the beliefs behind those actions as cruel and change them.

If it turns out that estrogen in the water supply or leachate from plastics is the cause what should we do?

 

[gearhead]

If it turns out that estrogen in the water supply or leachate from plastics is the cause what should we do?

I’ve got no problem with removing estrogen from our water supply or making plastics from materials that don’t leach chemicals. However, since homosexuality existed long before people began making plastic or flushing pills down the toilet, I strongly doubt that either of these things will be found to be the cause of homosexuality.

 

[buffalo]

I’ve got no problem with removing estrogen from our water supply or making plastics from materials that don’t leach chemicals. However, since homosexuality existed long before people began making plastic or flushing pills down the toilet, I strongly doubt that either of these things will be found to be the cause of homosexuality.

Singing starlings: why…boys are being born “girls” (estrogen pollution gender-bending the planet)
Next time you hear a starling sing, stop and listen hard. It may well be warning of a peril that endangers the whole world of nature - and the very future of the human race itself.
For scientists have found that gender-bender chemicals - increasingly contaminating the environment, our food, our water and our bodies - are having a bizarre effect on common birds, causing the males to give voice to longer and more complex songs.
This is only the latest in a long series of increasingly urgent alarms being sounded by wildlife against an insidious but devastating danger that threatens our children.
But so far our leaders have steadfastly and scandalously turned a deaf ear to them - and, even more shamefully, ignored the first signs that the peril is already affecting birth patterns, causing thousands of babies who should have been boys to be born as girls instead.
Starlings and their diverse, complicated and mimicking - though not beautiful - songs have long fascinated humanity.
Mozart was entranced by a starling after it copied a tune that the great composer was whistling in a pet store.
Scroll down for more…
Scientists have found that gender-bending chemicals have caused male Starlings to sing longer and more complex songs

more…

 

[WillieWonka]

That is because most don’t wake up one day and declare - I think I want to practice homosexuality. It is not as discrete as that.

Since this happens at an early age most would not even remember it.

What age is that? Did gays make the choice at that same early age?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Each and every homosexual makes a choice - to act on it or not. A thief with burglary tendencies still makes a choice whether to act on these tendencies. It is the same for all deviant habits.

That is because most don’t wake up one day and declare - I think I want to practice homosexuality. It is not as discrete as that.

Since this happens at an early age most would not even remember it.

Do you believe that homosexuals are born that way and then choose whether or not to act on it or do you believe that homosexuals choose their orientation?

 

[buffalo]

Do you believe that homosexuals are born that way and then choose whether or not to act on it or do you believe that homosexuals choose their orientation?

There is no evidence they are born that way. Everything points to early childhood developments.

In any case - you choose to act on it or not.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

There is no evidence they are born that way. Everything points to early childhood developments.

In any case - you choose to act on it or not.

So how do you explain gay people who had the traditional Leave it to Beaver upbringing?

My parents have been married for 50 years, raised me in a traditional Catholic environment, sent me to conservative Catholic schools and provided for me amply. I was never abused, mistreated or experienced any of the “usual causes” of homosexuality. I know gay people who have had very difficult lives, but in many cases the difficulty didn’t start until after they came out. Before that, their lives were completely ordinary. It’s probably easier to believe that we’ve all been abused, neglected or had some sort of childhood trauma that caused us to be gay, because then you can prevent “the gay” from happening to your children by avoiding those triggers.

 

[buffalo]

So how do you explain gay people who had the traditional Leave it to Beaver upbringing?

My parents have been married for 50 years, raised me in a traditional Catholic environment, sent me to conservative Catholic schools and provided for me amply. I was never abused, mistreated or experienced any of the “usual causes” of homosexuality. I know gay people who have had very difficult lives, but in many cases the difficulty didn’t start until after they came out. Before that, their lives were completely ordinary. It’s probably easier to believe that we’ve all been abused, neglected or had some sort of childhood trauma that caused us to be gay, because then you can prevent “the gay” from happening to your children by avoiding those triggers.

As you well know statistics don’t work that way. There are always unexplained circumstances.

What is your best guess as to why you are SSA?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

As you well know statistics don’t work that way. There are always unexplained circumstances.

What is your best guess as to why you are SSA?

I’m gay because that’s the way God made me. I don’t know why God would do that, but I hope to get a chance to ask someday.

 

[buffalo]

I’m gay because that’s the way God made me. I don’t know why God would do that, but I hope to get a chance to ask someday.

You cannot substantiate that. Now you have to claim that God created homosexuality going against His own natural law.

The great mysteries will indeed be answered.