Defending Catholicism at Work

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ghola5
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Ghola5

Guest
Hi, I am not Catholic yet, but I do consider Catholicism to be the true faith, and am on my way to entering the Church. Recently I began talking to a co-worker about Catholicism and was surprised how anti-catholic he was. Basically he considers Catholicism to be pagan because it is man made.

Here are some of the reason he gives that Catholicism is false.
  1. Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God, but is not equal in power or personhood with God, neither is the Holy Spirit. Thus the Twelve Apostles have no authority to forgive sins, etc… He questions the whole Commision that Jesus gave to the apostles saying basically that Jesus showed them how to worship God and how to live better and not much more.
  2. Sunday worship is pagan. He claims that God made the seventh day holy, which is Saturday, and to worship on Sunday is a pagan tradition. ( If anyone can point me to biblican evidence for sunday worship and tradition of sunday worship outside the bible I’d appreciate it.)
  3. Early Christians were not Catholics, they did not worship on sunday, as stated above, they did not have apostalic succession, no confession of sins, no popes, no eucharist.
  4. Mary is Not the Queen of Heaven and it is pagan to suggest anything of such sort.
  5. Anything that is not in the Bible or has not been Directly ordered or revealed by God is not Christian. This go back to sunday worship, Mary, Saints and etc…
If anything could point out some Biblican passages or referrences to these arguments I’d greatly appreciate it. Also if you could recommend some non-biblican but historical sources it would help.

I’ve tried to explain to him why these things were valid, but he basically said that if thats not in the Bible its not Christian, which in a way is a whole another argument of Sola Scriptura. When I pointed out that Early Christians did these things he denied it so if anybody could give me some Church Father refferences or some historical material I’d appreciate it too.

I am currently Reading New Testament and The Boards to answear his arguments but it would help me find them quicker if some of you guys helped in this Thread…

Thanx in Advance.
 
“Jesus is not God”.
The Gospel According to John, chapter 12.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Gopd, and the Word was God.

This passage goes on to make plain that it is about Christ, that “the Word” refers to Christ.
 
Hello Ghola5,

It would be much easier to help you to respond if we knew what ‘church’ your friend belongs to, if any. From point #1, it sounds as if your friend is a Jehova’s Witness, or some similar type.

It is easier to respond if we know where your friend is coming from.

thanks,

maurin
 
Sounds like SDA or JW.

Best thing is not to worry defend “Catholicism” but to say something like, “That’s very interesting; even Protestants don’t believe the things you bring up.”
 
Go to the crux of the question. Don’t argue scripture with your friend. Instead, ask your friend why he even accepts the bible as scripture, when it was only recognized as such by the false and corrupt Catholic Church. You friend cannot demonstrate the inspiration of the bible outside of the councils and teaching of the Church.
 
As a quick tip, the Catholic Answers library contains a lot of quotes from the early Christians on their teachings. They start at around 80 AD, a time in which at least one of the Apostles was still alive. For instance, here’s the Church fathers on Mary as the Mother of God. catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp

The earliest Christians DID have the Eucharist, and popes, and Apostolic succession, and everything we Catholic have today. Best of luck with co-worker. Don’t let him attack you from all sides like he seems to be - inform yourself on a subject and then stick to it, don’t let him start spouting off “Well you Catholics do this and this and this and this!”. Instead, be charitable and just let him know that the first subject was unfinished, that you’re more than willing to discuss the other objections, but only after you’re done.
 
Thanks for the quick replies.

Actually my co-worker does not attend church. He is a great guy
and we are good friends. I think he is of Southern Baptist back ground but have heard him say that he was encouraged to seek his own truth.

He says he prays to God for strength and for forgiveness and that no one needs a priest to hear their confessions. He does not believe in Sunday worship or Christmas. And basically believes that Jesus was a teacher who showed people how to live and enjoy life without worrying about technicalities.

He says he will only follow rules, traditions, doctrines, that are specifically shown in the Bible and nothing more.

So I think my best reply to him would be biblical evidence of Sunday Worship, Jesus’ Divinity, etc… I also want to be able to show him what the early Christians themselves believed and practiced. His argument is that Catholic Church that way we see it today did not exist prior to Constantine.

Privately, I think he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, even though he says he thoroughly studied the bible and history. I easily refuted many of his arguments, for example even the jews had to go to the Temple to offer the Sin Offering as atonement for sins and a Jewish Priest had to be there to see it and accept it and acknowledge it. (Not sure if I’m exactly right on this) Thus Catholics are following in a similar tradition by going to Church and Confessing to a Priest, not exclusively appealing to God for forgiveness.

He wanted hard evidence so thats what I’m trying to compile right now, exact quotes from bible and historical reference… so links and suggestions are welcome.

Thanx in Advance.
 
Ghola5 said:
  1. Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God, but is not equal in power or personhood with God, neither is the Holy Spirit. Thus the Twelve Apostles have no authority to forgive sins, etc… He questions the whole Commision that Jesus gave to the apostles saying basically that Jesus showed them how to worship God and how to live better and not much more.
Click to expand...
This is a link Dr. Peter Kreeft essay on the Divinity of Christ.
 
Ghola5 said:
  1. Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God, but is not equal in power or personhood with God, neither is the Holy Spirit. Thus the Twelve Apostles have no authority to forgive sins, etc… He questions the whole Commision that Jesus gave to the apostles saying basically that Jesus showed them how to worship God and how to live better and not much more.
Click to expand...
Sunday is the Lord’s Day. This is the day he remade/redeemed the world.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the “first day of the week.” Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

scripturecatholic.com/sunday_worship.html
 
Ghola5 said:
  1. Anything that is not in the Bible or has not been Directly ordered or revealed by God is not Christian. This go back to sunday worship, Mary, Saints and etc…
Click to expand...
To be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ. Christ did not write anything down. He specifically told the apostels to go and teach what he has taught them. He did not say, go and write and teach what you write down.

2 Thes 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

The Bible explicitly says you must hold fast to scripture and tradition.
 
Hi there Ghola5. The links on this page catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp are pretty good in dealing with the first part. If I wuz you, I would ask how the Church managed to make Jesus a godhead if the claim is so baseless. I’d ask when it happened and why the Church did it. It seems like an awful lot of getting-away-with to me.

If your friend is like most Protestants I know, his real problem is with authority, not doctrines. That’s why it’s always good to go back to the question of authority and which came first, authority or the Bible. You’ve got to show him that “sola scriptura” doesn’t cut it. If Catholicism is a tradition of men, ask him who started it. Just remember to ask everything politely!
 
Ghola5 said:
Hi, I am not Catholic yet, but I do consider Catholicism to be the true faith, and am on my way to entering the Church. Recently I began talking to a co-worker about Catholicism and was surprised how anti-catholic he was. Basically he considers Catholicism to be pagan because it is man made.

Here are some of the reason he gives that Catholicism is false.
  1. Jesus is not God, he is the Son of God, but is not equal in power or personhood with God, neither is the Holy Spirit. Thus the Twelve Apostles have no authority to forgive sins, etc… He questions the whole Commision that Jesus gave to the apostles saying basically that Jesus showed them how to worship God and how to live better and not much more.
  2. Sunday worship is pagan. He claims that God made the seventh day holy, which is Saturday, and to worship on Sunday is a pagan tradition. ( If anyone can point me to biblican evidence for sunday worship and tradition of sunday worship outside the bible I’d appreciate it.)
  3. Early Christians were not Catholics, they did not worship on sunday, as stated above, they did not have apostalic succession, no confession of sins, no popes, no eucharist.
  4. Mary is Not the Queen of Heaven and it is pagan to suggest anything of such sort.
  5. Anything that is not in the Bible or has not been Directly ordered or revealed by God is not Christian. This go back to sunday worship, Mary, Saints and etc…
If anything could point out some Biblican passages or referrences to these arguments I’d greatly appreciate it. Also if you could recommend some non-biblican but historical sources it would help.

I’ve tried to explain to him why these things were valid, but he basically said that if thats not in the Bible its not Christian, which in a way is a whole another argument of Sola Scriptura. When I pointed out that Early Christians did these things he denied it so if anybody could give me some Church Father refferences or some historical material I’d appreciate it too.

I am currently Reading New Testament and The Boards to answear his arguments but it would help me find them quicker if some of you guys helped in this Thread…

Thanx in Advance.
Click to expand...
You know, I’ve had it up to HERE with people who build their faith on what they percieve as how everyone else got their faith wrong.
 
A Baptist who does not believe Jesus is God. I assumed this guy is well verse in the Bible.

If Jesus is not God then why is Jesus worshipped in Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12; Matt. 2:2,11; Matt. 8:2; Matt. 14:33; Matt. 28:17?

Since the Apostle and other Jews worshipped Jesus, are they guilty of breaking the 1st Commandment?

I don’t think so. Jesus is God. Tell your friend this and cite the verse I gave you.

You can also go to scripturecatholic.com
 
Thanx to everyone for the response and advice.

I spent quiet some time compiling a list of scripture that supports the notion that Bible is not the exclusive source of our faith. I’ll show some of these to him tonight and see what he thinks.

In my mind the case against Bible Alone is pretty overwhelming. Simply by reading NT and specifically certain passages it is plain to understand that early Christian witness and worship was oral.

Several Apostles quiet plainly state that the faithful must follow and support each other by example and to “hold fast” to the traditions and practices that are taking shape. It’s obvious that the Apostles relied on the Holy Spirit and their own inteligence to enterprit the events of NT and form the New Doctrine.
 
Ghola5 said:
Thanx to everyone for the response and advice.

I spent quiet some time compiling a list of scripture that supports the notion that Bible is not the exclusive source of our faith. I’ll show some of these to him tonight and see what he thinks.

In my mind the case against Bible Alone is pretty overwhelming. Simply by reading NT and specifically certain passages it is plain to understand that early Christian witness and worship was oral.

Several Apostles quiet plainly state that the faithful must follow and support each other by example and to “hold fast” to the traditions and practices that are taking shape. It’s obvious that the Apostles relied on the Holy Spirit and their own inteligence to enterprit the events of NT and form the New Doctrine.
Click to expand...
Good Luck and let us know how it goes.
 
Sorry if this is really off topic, but… do you normally discuss religion at work?

Maybe it’s because I work in government, but I have heard maybe two really, really vague references to religion in the past two years.

Actually, yes, it was definitely two references to religion in as many years. I find it really interesting that so many people have these problems at work, when I have absolutely no idea what any of my co-workers believe, or don’t believe, in.

Maybe it’s that we’re not American. We really don’t talk about anything controversial. We never talk about money, sex, politics, or religion. I think that most of us would rather not speak at all than have an argument at work.

Sorry again if that was off topic.
 
Ghola5 said:
  1. Early Christians were not Catholics, they did not worship on sunday
Click to expand...
Bless you for coming home to the Church, Ghola! You are wise to realize that this co-worker of yours is extremely mistaken. Every one of his points is very easy to refute. Perhaps intimidating for someone who hasn’t studied them all.

I will give you one regarding the above that is less-well-known. First, the risen Christ celebrates the Eucharist Luke 24:30-31 (that was on a Sunday as verse 1 says).

Secondly, the first Christians most certainly worshipped on Sunday. See here. There’s a timeline there below the graphic starting at 90 A.D. when the apostle John was most likely still around and some say wrote Revelation at this time.
 
I would smile and tell your co-worker that he has some interesting opinions. Ask him where he got them. He needs love, prayer and encouragement. Tell him you appreciate his sharing with you about this stuff then *ask him why he hates the Catholic Faith so much!

*So many AEC (Angry ex-Catholics) out there. At best, you help him come home, at worst, nothing and you just have a working relationship.

Encourage him to talk about what he believes and find the common ground, “that’s great! I believe that, too” (You’re right! I believe that Jesus is the Son of God! The earliest Christians, the ones right after Jesus, believed that He was the Son of God. They also worshipped him, and they explain it by their knowing the only one you can worship is God, so therefore, when Christ accepts worship, he is telling us he’s God!) or something like that…

Good Luck and God bless!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top