Defending Confession from a Protestant Family member

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BVMFatima

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Hello,

40 minuets ago my aunt (who belongs to the Non Denominational Protestant Church, aka “Born Again Christians”) was challenging me by bringing up 1 John 1:9 which states " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.".

She was mentioning that the pastor of her Church was saying there is no need to confess our sins to a priest and Catholics use this scripture to support our need for confession, but that this scripture mentions going straight to Jesus. So I brought up scriptures such as John 20:21-23, Lev 5: 10-16, and John 5:16 and told her to read it for her self, she rejected and said “No!” Then I was explaining the faith and mentioned why I converted to the Roman Catholic Church and how there was not any Protestant Churches in the early Church, she started to get very angry and shout at me and give me dirty looks and said she was not attacking Catholicism. I also mentioned and came up with asking her how does she know what she is being taught from her pastor is true, she said " because it is what I believe in!" So I mentioned how Sola Scriptura lead to 35,000 plus denominations which is heresy and how the Early church was Catholic. I even asked her what is the pillar and bulwark of truth? She would not answer and was like what? I told her the Church as 1 tim 3:15 says, she said so what though? I mentioned only the Catholic Church can claim this because it has been here for 2000 years, and was around when the Bible was written. She was getting very angry and was yelling at me because she hates Catholicism and my grandmother made us end the conversation.

Did I do something wrong? My Grand Mother who left the Church menitoned that all denominations are going to heaven ( I disagree because the Church is necessary for salvation)

God Bless,
BVMFatima
 
BVMFatima said:
1 John 1:9 which states " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity."
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There is nothing about this verse that is incompatible with Catholic teaching. Did I miss the part where it said we accomplish this confession apart from the ministry of the Church?
but that this scripture mentions going straight to Jesus.
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That’s the part I missed. Where is that, exactly? Oh, and by the way - if one were to interpret this verse as direct confession to God, it would be to the Father, not to Jesus (the pronoun “he” in this verse refers to the Father).
So I brought up scriptures such as John 20:21-23, Lev 5: 10-16, and John 5:16
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Well done. Although I would have probably mentioned only John 20 (and you meant to say 1John 5:16).
and told her to read it for her self, she rejected and said “No!”
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“no” she would not read it for herself, or “no” that those passages don’t say what they clearly say?
she was not attacking Catholicism.
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She was attacking what the Catholic Church teaches (obviously), and you were defending what the Church teaches.
Did I do something wrong?
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You didn’t do anything evil. Whether your conversation was wise is not something we can know - maybe you didn’t say enough, or you said too much, or you didn’t say what really needed to be said. We (the people on this Forum) can’t know one way or another. But you defended the teaching of the Church, which is admirable.
 
DavidFilmer said:
There is nothing about this verse that is incompatible with Catholic teaching. Did I miss the part where it said we accomplish this confession apart from the ministry of the Church?

That’s the part I missed. Where is that, exactly? Oh, and by the way - if one were to interpret this verse as direct confession to God, it would be to the Father, not to Jesus (the pronoun “he” in this verse refers to the Father).

Well done. Although I would have probably mentioned only John 20 (and you meant to say 1John 5:16).

“no” she would not read it for herself, or “no” that those passages don’t say what they clearly say?

She was attacking what the Catholic Church teaches (obviously), and you were defending what the Church teaches.

You didn’t do anything evil. Whether your conversation was wise is not something we can know - maybe you didn’t say enough, or you said too much, or you didn’t say what really needed to be said. We (the people on this Forum) can’t know one way or another. But you defended the teaching of the Church, which is admirable.
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She said no as in she won’t read them. By the way I meant James 5:16
 
DavidFilmer said:
A protestant who won’t read her Bible. Hmmm. That’s not something you come across every day.
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Their mouths (my aunt and Grandmother) also dropped when I mentioned that these are problems with protestants that are not truth.
 
BVMFatima said:
Hello,
40 minuets ago my aunt (who belongs to the Non Denominational Protestant Church, aka “Born Again Christians”) was challenging me by bringing up 1 John 1:9 which states " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.".
Click to expand...
Did I do something wrong? My Grand Mother who left the Church menitoned that all denominations are going to heaven ( I disagree because the Church is necessary for salvation)

God Bless,
BVMFatima

You did quite well…you defended you faith. She got angry because you responded and she could not respond to what you provided her.
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[/QUOTE]
 
Well, she was obviously attacking Catholicism when she attacked the Church’s teaching. I agree with the others’ suggested evidence and support. I especially find 1 John 5:14-17 helpful. If you take, this verse at face value you can pray “directly to God” for your sins of they aren’t mortal, but shouldn’t pray if they’re not. Unless you want to think those guilty of mortal sin are beyond forgiveness, then confession looks a lot better.

However, as your aunt demonstrated, we often believe what we want to believe. She could “parry” that verse with another verse or some mantra or teaching she learned from her pastor. Then you could address that rebuttal but find yourself playing verbal whack-a-mole.

Ultimately, as I’m sure you know, you just have to keep things calm, try to get her to see your side and “plant a seed” so to speak. Maybe someday it will strike something in her. I know as a former Protestant, these verses eventually got to me, but I even had my own times where I dismissed the Catholic view out of hand. And it was only trying to be fair and rational that allowed me to consider the Catholic viewpoint.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.” It truly all is in the hand of God.
 
When you confess to a priest, you do so directly to Jesus.

It is best to not provoke your family member by defending you beliefs. Live your faith, and that can be the best argument!
 
DavidFilmer said:
A protestant who won’t read her Bible. Hmmm. That’s not something you come across every day.
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Nonsense. They abound.

They may, and often do, talk a big game–but it doesn’t necessarily follow that they’eve even bothered to read their bibles. I’ve known far too many biblically ignorant protestants, who simply parrot their pastor’s take on the bible. I’ve even known my share of embarrassingly misinformed protestant pastors. It is pure myth, that protestants know their bibles better than Catholics. They just rely on its authority more–and run their yaps about it more. 🙂
 
If we follow Jesus, then we should hear exactly what those who followed Him heard. When He forgave sins, He told them so that their hearts would be at peace.

Matthew 9:2
2 And behold they brought to him one sick of the palsy lying in a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the man sick of the palsy: Be of good heart, son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Mark 2:5
5 And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 5:20
20 Whose faith when he saw, he said: Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 7:48
48 And he said to her: Thy sins are forgiven thee.

Paul also forgave sins and said as much to those whose sins he forgave. But, notice in what capacity he forgave those sins:

2 Corinthians 2:10
10 And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ.

If they really followed the bible, they would hear these words of absolution and pastor would act in the person of Christ.
 
BVMFatima said:
I also mentioned and came up with asking her how does she know what she is being taught from her pastor is true, she said " because it is what I believe in!"
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This is a very telling statement. She doesn’t follow Christ. She follows herself. She will only listen to something that agrees with her own views.

The key with opening her eyes will be to continually point out who has ultimate authority in her religion (and it is her.) Ask her who the Bible says has authority.
 
BVMFatima said:
Hello,

40 minuets ago my aunt (who belongs to the Non Denominational Protestant Church, aka “Born Again Christians”) was challenging me by bringing up 1 John 1:9 which states " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.".

She was mentioning that the pastor of her Church was saying there is no need to confess our sins to a priest and Catholics use this scripture to support our need for confession, but that this scripture mentions going straight to Jesus. So I brought up scriptures such as John 20:21-23, Lev 5: 10-16, and John 5:16 and told her to read it for her self, she rejected and said “No!” Then I was explaining the faith and mentioned why I converted to the Roman Catholic Church and how there was not any Protestant Churches in the early Church, she started to get very angry and shout at me and give me dirty looks and said she was not attacking Catholicism. I also mentioned and came up with asking her how does she know what she is being taught from her pastor is true, she said " because it is what I believe in!" So I mentioned how Sola Scriptura lead to 35,000 plus denominations which is heresy and how the Early church was Catholic. I even asked her what is the pillar and bulwark of truth? She would not answer and was like what? I told her the Church as 1 tim 3:15 says, she said so what though? I mentioned only the Catholic Church can claim this because it has been here for 2000 years, and was around when the Bible was written. She was getting very angry and was yelling at me because she hates Catholicism and my grandmother made us end the conversation.

Did I do something wrong? My Grand Mother who left the Church menitoned that all denominations are going to heaven ( I disagree because the Church is necessary for salvation)

God Bless,
BVMFatima
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Hi,

Sorry you are going through this. I’ve been there, believe me. It takes a lot of patience to try and get our loved ones and relatives to understand our Faith. The resistance and temper is a typical response when someone is forced to re-evaluate their belief system. She may have been upset, but I am quite sure that you’ve made her start thinking about things more. Don’t be surprised if she tries to come back with a few rebuttals a few days (or weeks after some research) later. Just remember to try and witness in love, try not to “hit” her too hard at first :). You are doing fine.
 
I think you ‘argued’ logically very well.

However, based on the tone of the encounter, there may have been an opportunity in the beginning:

When she said that “there is no need to confess our sins to a priest” - at this point I think you should have conditionally agreed with her in part by saying “We too believe that we must confess our sins to God. But for us, the priest acts as a conduit to God.” *

That, perhaps, could have kept the tone of the conversation a bit better.

For me, sometime the ‘heat’ of a conversation will get to me, and I’ve found that saying “Let me think about that and get back to you in a few moments” allows me to distance myself from the emotions and be more persuasive.
  • If I’ve got this wrong, forgive me please, as I’m not Catholic.
 
benjohnson said:
I think you ‘argued’ logically very well.

However, based on the tone of the encounter, there may have been an opportunity in the beginning:

When she said that “there is no need to confess our sins to a priest” - at this point I think you should have conditionally agreed with her in part by saying “We too believe that we must confess our sins to God. But for us, the priest acts as a conduit to God.” *

That, perhaps, could have kept the tone of the conversation a bit better.

For me, sometime the ‘heat’ of a conversation will get to me, and I’ve found that saying “Let me think about that and get back to you in a few moments” allows me to distance myself from the emotions and be more persuasive.
  • If I’ve got this wrong, forgive me please, as I’m not Catholic.
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Nothing to forgive, Ben! Paul is an excellent reference when speaking of the need to confess our sins, and to whom. From the King James Version
2 Corinthians 2:10 "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ
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A bit later in he same letter, Paul teaches us that he was an “ambassador(s) for Christ” that is, with the authority of Christ, and exhorted the faithful to be reconciled with God.
2 Corinthians 5:20 “For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.”
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His ministry was one of reconciliation:
2 Corinthians 5:18 “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation”
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He was speaking to the baptized, so his words were regarding post-baptismal sin.

What is colloquially called confession is more properly termed “reconciliation.” These scriptures are not focused upon by certain non-sacramental Christians. At some point, one must wonder why Paul would teach this if confession was unnecessary.
 
BVMFatima said:
Hello,

my aunt (who belongs to the Non Denominational Protestant Church, aka “Born Again Christians”) was challenging me by bringing up 1 John 1:9 which states " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.".

She was mentioning that the pastor of her Church was saying there is no need to confess our sins to a priest and Catholics use this scripture to support our need for confession, but that this scripture mentions going straight to Jesus.

So I brought up scriptures such as John 20:21-23, Lev 5: 10-16, and John 5:16 and told her to read it for her self, she rejected and said “No!”
Click to expand...
staying with those passages you list, ask her
  • If all we have to do is literally go to God for forgiveness of sins, [1 Jn 1:9]why was that not good enough for the OT people who did that? If she says they didn’t have Jesus, then
  • why did Jesus give the apostles, the power to forgive and retain a persons sins?John 20:21-23]. How do they do that unless someone confessess their sins to them? Jesus wouldn’t give this power to those he ordains unless He meant for them to use it and for us to avail ourselves of this sacrament.
  • If John says all we have to do is literally go to God for the forgiveness of sins, [1 Jn 1:9]why does this same John distinguish between some sins one can pray about and God forgives them (non mortal) , but not so for mortal sin? [1 Jn 5:16-17] Oh really! Why not? Venial sin can be prayed about, but how do Protestants then, get rid of mortal sin?
B:
Then I was explaining the faith and mentioned why I converted to the Roman Catholic Church and how there was not any Protestant Churches in the early Church, she started to get very angry and shout at me and give me dirty looks and said she was not attacking Catholicism.
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She knows what you said is true. Therefore, out of love for your aunt, finish the thoughts you raised.

Our Lord’s Church is the Catholic Church
  • Acts 9:31 (from St Luke) So the church throughout all κατά kata…ὅλος holos Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" iow the Church is the Kataholos Church = Catholic Church The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means
  • St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæans of which schismatics from the Church won’t go to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians
  • St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
  • Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]Chapter 3
  • Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54
  • The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
  • etc etc
It’s necessary to be in the Catholic Church
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447

division from which is condemned in scripture.

Rom 16:17-20
Gal 5:19-21

in both cases the Greek word διχοστασίαdichostasia = dissension / division] is the same. It’s condemned.

Thus

Once a person “knows” the Catholic Church is established by Jesus as necessary and refuses to enter her or remain in her, can’t be saved. [LG 14]
 
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