Defending faith when protestants say it is not okay to worship Mary

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whichwaytogo47 said:
In pre-Vatican II, it was definitely hard to see if Mary was just being honored or if they indeed got into the realm of idolatry and worship of Mary instead of simply honoring her.
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Source for this, please?

Many of my relatives were practicing Catholics long before Vatican II, and there was never any difficulty for them telling the difference. Also, many of the pre-Vatican II devotions to Mary are once again being practiced, and there is not much difference in how we are venerating her now and how my older relatives used to do it. In fact…not really ANY difference that I can see…
 
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scope said:
So, I’m a Roman Catholic and for a half year I’ve been browsing a protestant forum just because I was afraid I might get possessed after watching a horror movie.
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just curious

what does watching a horror movie have to do with you browsing a Protestant forum thinking you’re possessed… and what, goIng on that site WAS going to protect you? Did you participate in that forum and get schooled in Protestantism on their view of Mary?
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scope:
They just have bad opinions about Catholics. They say we worship Mary and that Jesus is the only mediator between us and God.
What can I do? Is it a biblical proof that worshiping Mary is okay?
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may I suggest reading this explanation of worship Saint Worship? | Catholic Answers
 
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The usual rebuttal to Protestants saying Catholics do (something bad) is the Church does not teach that, because the Church doesn’t teach us to do any evil in any form.

Worshiping Mary would be an evil, but worship is reserved for God and God alone.

Catholics may unwittingly believe anything, but that doesn’t mean the Church teaches it.
 
1ke said:
Worshipping Mary would not be OK, as we give

worship (latria) only to God. We venerate Mary and the Saints (dulia).
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While I agree with this, I’m wondering how to explain the difference, especially since one of the lines in the hymn for Lauds yesterday was “Sinners we worship thy sinless perfection”
 
It was personal experience. It may have been colored by my bias at the time as a fair-weather Catholic that these were Latin-rite practicing Catholics. We had gone over a house and saw a video on Fatima and praised Mary for this apparition. In all honesty, I don’t know if we were venerating/honoring/celebrating/praying to or if we were worshiping her. I didn’t get to know them long enough to know what truly was in their heart. I don’t know if it says more about me that I assumed that they were worshiping her and that I was mistaken. I believe it’s fine to pray to Mary like you would one of your friends. And that’s probably what they were doing and I misinterpreted it. The Latin-style mass didn’t encourage my Catholic faith as much as when it was challenged. When it was challenged by my interfaith relationship and now interfaith marriage, I appreciate it a lot more.

I do love the Fatima prayer now. Though I knew and liked the rosary, I didn’t used to appreciate the Fatima prayer until I’ve had an encounter with Jesus (in an Evangelical church). I now appreciate my Catholic faith. I met my wife only three months after I broke up with this former girl-friend. It was a real blessing that I met my wife even though we have a mixed marriage. I’m definitely appreciative of my Catholic faith. I believe people can get saved in the Catholic Church and that’s the most important thing - the sacraments help in accomplishing this but aren’t the be all end all. Living a life in obedience to Jesus and using the saints to pray for us and live a life of charity is the way to live. And to pray often. This is where I’ve continued to struggle a lot. My wife and I only do mealtime prayer together. Definitely hoping that my kids will have an ENCOUNTER with Jesus. I’m hoping that this either leads them to get the sacraments and/or are a result of having them and living the faith. Also in having both experiences, I definitely want them to practice their faith & not take it for granted.

So thanks for your comments. I probably misidentified the veneration vs worshiping Mary in my personal experience there, but I can still see as an outside observer how you can believe that’s what they’re doing if the people praying to Mary don’t make it clear that they’re ultimately praying to God thru Mary.
 
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There’s nothing to defend from.

Simply agree with them that worshipping Mary would be idolatrous.

They’re right - it is NOT okay to worship Mary. She’s not a god or godess.
 
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Biblical worship involves sacrifice.

An example of worshipping Mary would be setting up an altar to offer burnt offerings to Mary so she can forgive us our sins.

No sacrifice, no worship. At least not biblically speaking.

In the New Testament worship takes place in the Temple because that’s where the priests were and where sacrifices were made.

The synagogue was a place of learning and prayer, but not technically worship.

The Temple was a place both of learning, prayer, and worship.

In every Catholic Mass we have the fulfillment of both the Synagogue and Temple.

The Liturgy of the Word is the New and Fulfilled Synagogue service.

The Liturgy of the Eucharist is the New and Fulfilled Temple Worship. The Eucharist coincides with the Eternal Todah Sacrifice - the Thanks-offering offered unto the end of the world.

(And the Liturgy of the Hours is the New and Fulfilled Hours of Prayer which happened at the Temple)
 
Language changes and evolves. The word “worship” used to have a much broader meaning in English vocabulary. And it still does in the dictionary. Today In the US, it tends to only be used in regard to divinity. That is not the case historically. The lesser used meaning of worship which is to venerate (dulia, hyperdulia) is meant in that particular verse. That’s the problem with translations from Latin or Greek or other original languages. Modern languages do not always convey the exact meaning of the original construction.
 
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Worship had a different meaning in early modern English than it does in Modern English, as illustrated by @1ke
 
whichwaytogo47 said:
In all honesty, I don’t know if we were venerating/honoring/celebrating/praying to or if we were worshiping her. I didn’t get to know them long enough to know what truly was in their heart.
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I think perhaps this is a situation like on either this thread or a different one where someone said a Catholic may say, “I prayed to St. so-and-so” as shorthand for “I asked St. so-and-so to please intercede and offer prayers to God for my intention, for which I am also praying to God.” The person hearing the “shorthand” maybe gets a little confused.

I appreciate that it does look maybe like Mary is being worshipped if you see something like a Fatima procession with the statue, or a Feast of the Assumption procession which is very similar. Probably some Catholics are confused about it to be honest, if they did not grow up in homes where Marian devotion was both part of daily life and was explained.

The one thing I’d note is like I said, the styles of Marian devotion have really not changed since pre-Vatican II. Many of us are interested in perpetuating the old devotions or “bringing them back”. They never really went away to a certain segment of us - you just had to look harder for a parish offering them, especially during the 70s and 80s when you suddenly got all these modern churches without a Mary statue to be found in them (and the rosary was considered something old people and nuns said). I’m not even a trad - I go to a couple Latin Masses each year but most of the time I’m at the regular OF Mass in my t-shirt and knit pants - but I very much love Mary, it is something going back to my childhood for me as I was trained to say the Rosary with my parents at a very young age and they both said it daily.

I know that pre-Vatican II there were really, really huge Marian devotions in USA, like massive rallies and such, much of it associated with people trying to get through depression and war and Cold War, and I actually bought a scholarly book written from a non-Catholic perspective on that, but it is right now at another residence of mine out of state and I have not had time to read it.
 
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I found the site too complicated to respond, so I deleted my question.

Daniel wrote:
 
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Unless you mean worship to include just veneration (ie in Ireland I believe this usage is widespread still), then we don’t.
 
I don’t think there is such a fine line between worship/adoration/latria and veneration at all. Latria, or adoration / worship is what is owed by a creature to his Creator. God created us and holds us in existence. Without his creative will we would collapse into nothingness.

Nobody thinks that Mary created them or holds them in existence. She is created by God and was chosen by him to be the mother of the Redeemer, who is the second person of the Trinity. Bcause of that we call her Theotokos or Mother of God. That is high veneration and deservedly so. We cannot give her more veneration than does her Son. But we cannot and do not worship her as creator.

The problem is not that we venerate Mary too much but that Protestants worship God too little, making the two things seem similar when they are not.
 
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