Defending Mary's Virginity

[davidv]

Got your PM. Thanks!

I’ll address your four points.

I agree with your first clause, but belief in her perpetual virginity was the catalyst for other Marian doctrines that do elevate her.

Elevated to what?

Also, for some, belief that she remained a virgin in connection with her being the mother of our Lord is enough reason to exalt her.

I don’t understand how Mary remaining a virgin honors God.

Clearly, and you apparently aren’t willing to entertain information provided that would enhance your understanding.

Are you implying that if Mary had other children after Jesus it would be dishonorable to God? If so, why?

Certainly that can be said of the virgin birth, but after? Let’s remember, Jesus received His humanity from Mary, not His divinity.

He got is whole personhood from Mary, not just his human nature. Persons are born, not natures.

You can imagine that if you want to, but nobody can truly answer to how Mary viewed herself.

No imagination is require. Her own words that are recorded.

Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. (Luke (NAB) 1:38)

 

[Pete_Holter]

Moving on, there is also a theological rationale for her perpetual virginity and it begins with an explanation of what it meant for Jesus to give Mary to John at the foot of the cross.

“When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’ Then He said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’ And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home” (John 19:26-27).

“Home” is not in the Greek text. It is fairly added by the Gospel translators here and elsewhere. But John tells us that “the beloved disciple” took Mary “to his own,” period. We see this Greek term being used by itself in other places where it refers to the person himself. Matthew tells us that Jesus at one time withdrew “to a desolate place by himself” (Matthew 14:13; cf. Matthew 14:23). We also see this term being used to speak of privacy and intimacy. As when “the disciples came to Him privately” (Matthew 24:3), and when Jesus taught The Twelve apart from the rest: “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to His own disciples He explained everything” (Mark 4:34).

Compare what the beloved disciple does with Mary (taking her “to his own”) with that of what the unbeliever does with Christ: “He came to His own, and His own [people] did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:11-12). The unbeliever does not receive Christ; but the one who does receive Christ becomes a child of God, and is encouraged by John’s example to go on from there to also receive from Him His Mother, to become a child of Mary.

We understand that Jesus was sent by the Father to be received as our Mediator between God and man. And at the foot of the cross, we see Mary being “sent” by Christ to “the beloved disciple” to be received by him as his Mother. Let us not miss this: Jesus’ word to “Behold” Mary is a command to “the beloved disciple” from the Savior. The beloved disciple obeys Jesus by taking her “to his own,” to the privacy of his internal self “from that hour.” Just as Christ comes to us to be received by us, so He sends His Mother to also be received by those who identify themselves as a beloved disciple. And by receiving her from Christ to be our Mother, we take a step towards the obedience that she herself exhorts us to. Jesus’ command to “Behold” Mary is to hear her say, “Do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5).

You may compare these thoughts with Pope Benedict’s here.

Once you have this understanding, you can move from here to see what else might be said about the mother of the beloved disciple. Knowing that Mary and John end up sticking together at this point in history, we would expect him to write about her elsewhere. And we see him doing this in the 12th chapter of his Revelation. Mary is the woman clothed with the sun who gives birth to Jesus. At the end of this chapter we see that “those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus” are identified by John as similarly being her [Mary’s] offspring (cf. Revelation 12:17). This is further evidence that John intended to present himself as an archetype for all believers in the Lord when he wrote about receiving Mary as his mother. She is mother to us all.

Again, the Church was born from Jesus’ side as he Hung dead on the cross (cf. John 19:34). Attention is brought in this scene to Mary and John, the one made mother, the other made son. Their constitution as mother and son becomes a model for the constitution of the Church at large. We just saw this in Revelation 12, and we see it again in 2 John when John writes to one of the churches as “the elect lady and her children” (v. 1): Mary, the Elect Lady, and the beloved disciples, her children.

We also find that Scripture identifies the Church as the mother of the disciples. Paul tells us that “the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother” (Gal 4:26). Who is the Jerusalem above? Well, when we move back to Revelation we see that the Jerusalem coming down from heaven “had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:14). And in Ephesians 2:19-20, Paul tells them that they are “members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.” And in 1 Timothy 3:15, Paul tells Timothy that the “household of God” is “the church of the living God, pillar and buttress of the truth.” Ahhh, the Jerusalem above, which is our mother, is the Church. The theological implications of this brief sketch is that Mary, as Mother, becomes identified with the Church and serves as the archetype of the Church, which is also Mother. Mary embodies the Church and serves as our exemplar. There are other ways of arriving at this theological identification of Mary with the Church, but the clearest path is through her motherhood of the disciples.

“Grace Like Rain.” Here it is with scenes from The Passion.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Mary is also described as “Blessed… among women” (Luke 1:42). This is the Hebrew way of saying that she is the most blessed of all women. It is important to note that the blessing is directly on account of her discipleship and only indirectly on account of her being Jesus’ mom (compare Luke 1:42 & 45 with Luke 11:27-28). And so we rightly think of her as the most blessed disciple. Calling her the most blessed disciple is a small step beyond calling her the most blessed woman. But based on what we know of her from the New Testament, I’m not sure who her male contender would be for this honor. Even the beloved disciple John was seeking his own honor and wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans (cf. Mark 10:37 & Luke 9:54). When Mary tells the servants to “Do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5), I gain the impression that this is coming from a person who is already following her own advice: “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word” (Luke 1:38).

As mother, Mary is the archetype of the Church as a whole. And as the most blessed disciple, she is the antitype of all the individual members of the Church. We are all to say with Mary, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word” (Luke 1:38). Once you connect Mary with the Church in this way, a lot of Biblical data opens up to us.

The reason why this matters in terms of Mary’s virginity is that the Church is the bride of Christ (cf. Ephesians 5:22-32). And Paul is at pains to present the Church “as a pure virgin to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2). He betrothed us “to one husband.” The Church is the “perfect one” of the Song of Songs in whom “there is no flaw” (Song of Songs 5:2 & 6:9; 4:7). The Church is “holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:27).

Paul’s presentation of us to Christ as a virgin refers to a spiritual purity that we are to continue to progress in. It takes its rise from the grace of God when we are baptized into Christ and He is conceived in us by His Spirit (cf. Galatians 3:27 & Colossians 1:27), and it progresses from there (cf. Galatians 4:19). But for Mary, her virginity preceded her conception of Jesus, and the miraculous conception and birth of Christ in her was a consecration of that spiritual and physical virginity. Christ is conceived in us only spiritually. But He is conceived in Mary both spiritually and physically. It is this added physical dimension in Mary’s case – providing an outward sign of an inward reality – that matters for our present concern.

In keeping with an analogous correspondence, just as we hold that the Church is exhorted to preserve her spiritual virginity and spiritual fidelity in her marriage to Christ, so Mary as the archetype did preserve her virginity. She conceived Christ by her one “Husband.” Through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit (cf. Luke 1:35), Mary, as our Exemplar, is the Bride of Christ “without spot or wrinkle or any such thing” (Ephesians 5:27). She says of God, “My Beloved is mine, and I am His” (Song of Songs 2:16; cf. 6:3, 7:10). As the bodily epitome of the Church, she preserved her virginity both spiritually and physically, and she preserved her matrimonial fidelity to God both spiritually and physically.

Scripture encourages us to follow Mary in lifelong celibacy in our flesh (cf. Matt. 19:10-12 & 1 Cor. 7:7, 28, 32-34, 38). Because physical virginity is a calling that goes above and beyond the commands of God and falls under what Catholics call the “Evangelical Counsels,” to say that Mary did not preserve her virginity when she really did is to dishonor her by robbing her of her reason for boasting (2 Cor. 9:15-18). Not that she boasts in anyone but the Lord (cf. Luke 1:46), and that’s just the point. God really did do this great thing in Mary’s life. To say that He didn’t is to also rob our Lord of the glory redounding to Him on account of this grace. Because Mary is the most blessed disciple, and not forgetting all of the evidence presented thus far, we believe that she pursued this higher calling that goes beyond what is necessary for salvation. My advice is to start with Luke 1:34 and go from there.

Mary’s virginity reminds us that we should be discerning this call to virginity in our own lives and in the lives of our children. It uniquely provides an example to married couples that the time of prayer mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:5 can be extended indefinitely by those who have self-control and who desire such a single-minded devotion.

As a final thought, here is Augustine’s friend, Bishop Quodvultdeus (his name means “What God Wants”) commenting in the early 400s on the woman of Revelation 12:

“In the apocalypse of the Apostle John it is written, ‘the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it’ (Revelation 12:4). None of you is ignorant of the fact that the dragon was the devil. The woman signified the Virgin Mary, who remaining intact brought forth our intact Head. She also showed forth in herself the image of the holy Church, so that, as she remained a virgin, so [the Church] for all time should bring forth members without losing its virginity” (quoted in “The False Prophets”. For the Latin text, see the highlighted portion and following. This homily was formerly attributed to Augustine.).

There is none so high and holy! King of kings, the One and Only! Just press play.

Your brother in the Lord,
Pete

 

[Deacon_Latif]

…Now how come the “successors” of Luther and Calvin deny Mary Most Holys’ Virginity? Because in their pride, anger, and hatred of the Church of God(the Catholic Church), they strive to pull away the Catholic roots in their denominations.

But still, why do the Lutherans NOT deny the Virginity of Mary Most Holy? Luther used to be a Catholic(yet he became anti-catholic). It can be said that he, Luther, although he is a heretic, still preserved a little spark of devotion towards Mary, and that, the Lutherans still have a small devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Maybe those silly fundamentalist denominations do not have a love for Mary Most Holy? Because, if they did, they would strive to honour Her and to show how much Jesus honoured Her.

But no, they do not. They either ignore Her and even hate Her. I have seen these things myself. Just look at that anti-catholic jesusislord.com. I shudder to go in that website, as it so blasphemous and unkind(and harsh)…

You are quite mistaken that Luther only had a “spark” of devotion for the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was profound, and lifelong. He prayed the rosary his whole life. In his Personal Prayerbook, he gives a beautiful commentary on the Ave, in which he confesses Mary to be without sin. He also confessed her perpetual virginity in the pulpit. For example, in at least one of his Christmas sermons that I recall, he expounds beautifully on Mary’s virginity, and on the fact that our Lord was born without even opening His mother’s womb.

This, by the way, is not only Luther, but also is built into the Lutheran Confessions. Both the semper virgo and the clauso utero are confessed in the Book of Concord. You say that “the Lutherans” deny her perpetual virginity, which implies that this is a blanket statement of all Lutherans. In fact the denial of Mary’s perpetual virginity is a modern phenomenon. Virtually all Lutheran priests and theologians held to her perpetual virginity through the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and into the 20th. The confession of her perpetual virginity can still be found today among Lutherans. I am one such, and there are many more. At the same time, being Catholic does not guarantee one will hold this view. I don’t say that with happiness or as an attack. It is unfortunate, but true. If a Catholic sends his child to one of several Catholic universities today, the theology departments will try to turn that student into an “enlightened” skeptic, who prefers to seek out the “historical Jesus” over traditional Catholic teaching. My point there is that in the modern age there is blame to go around. It is a pan-denominational problem. And it requires our prayer, and reasoned and loving dialog, not accusations that Protestants who have not been taught about Mary’s perpetual virginity are “hateful,” as you say.

 

[panevino]

Got your PM. Thanks!

I’ll address your four points.

I agree with your first clause, but belief in her perpetual virginity was the catalyst for other Marian doctrines that do elevate her.

i think immaculate conception and assumption are all glorification of Jesus rather than elevation of Mary, thou i can see where you are comming from

Also, for some, belief that she remained a virgin in connection with her being the mother of our Lord is enough reason to exalt her.

I don’t understand how Mary remaining a virgin honors God. Are you implying that if Mary had other children after Jesus it would be dishonorable to God? If so, why?
Certainly that can be said of the virgin birth, but after? Let’s remember, Jesus received His humanity from Mary, not His divinity.

i gave my view in post
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6244855&postcount=86
i’d love to hear your thoughts on it.

You can imagine that if you want to, but nobody can truly answer to how Mary viewed herself.

i under stand your response here… when she used the titel handmaid it was with a bibblical background.

 

[panevino]

immaculate conception and assumption are all glorification of Jesus rather than elevation of Mary, although I can see where you are comming from.

i gave my view in post
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6244855&postcount=86
i’d love to hear your thoughts on it.

i understand your response here… when she used the title handmaid it was with a biblical background.

 

[Alfred_Hili]

God chose Mary to be His Mother. Being omniscient God must have known that she was the purest and the holiest of all women. There are so many saints who chose to remain virgins, why should we find it so difficult to believe in Mary’s virginity? When Mary gave birth to the Son of God, her mission was accompolished and her husband Joseph knew it.
And we must not forget that St Joseph was much older than Mary and God also picked him, a just and honest man, to be her husband.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Deacon Latif:

If a Catholic sends his child to one of several Catholic universities today, the theology departments will try to turn that student into an “enlightened” skeptic, who prefers to seek out the “historical Jesus” over traditional Catholic teaching. My point there is that in the modern age there is blame to go around.

Amen Deacon! These days Catholics are more Protestant than Protestants, and Protestants are more Catholic than Catholics! It’s a mess.

 

[GrahamAPhone]

God chose Mary to be His Mother. Being omniscient God must have known that she was the purest and the holiest of all women. There are so many saints who chose to remain virgins, why should we find it so difficult to believe in Mary’s virginity? When Mary gave birth to the Son of God, her mission was accompolished and her husband Joseph knew it.
And we must not forget that St Joseph was much older than Mary and God also picked him, a just and honest man, to be her husband.

I’m not trying to argue against the perpetual virginity of Mary, but i would like to point out that God didn’t CHOOSE Mary BECAUSE she was holy, he MADE Mary perfect for his own glory. Mary could not have been holy without the gifts of Christ foreshadowed.

 

[philipmarie]

This, by the way, is not only Luther, but also is built into the Lutheran Confessions. Both the semper virgo and the clauso utero are confessed in the Book of Concord. You say that “the Lutherans” deny her perpetual virginity, which implies that this is a blanket statement of all Lutherans. In fact the denial of Mary’s perpetual virginity is a modern phenomenon. Virtually all Lutheran priests and theologians held to her perpetual virginity through the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and into the 20th. The confession of her perpetual virginity can still be found today among Lutherans. I am one such, and there are many more. At the same time, being Catholic does not guarantee one will hold this view. I don’t say that with happiness or as an attack. It is unfortunate, but true. If a Catholic sends his child to one of several Catholic universities today, the theology departments will try to turn that student into an “enlightened” skeptic, who prefers to seek out the “historical Jesus” over traditional Catholic teaching. My point there is that in the modern age there is blame to go around. It is a pan-denominational problem. And it requires our prayer, and reasoned and loving dialog, not accusations that Protestants who have not been taught about Mary’s perpetual virginity are “hateful,” as you say.

Actually, I did not say that the Lutherans deny Mary’s Virginity, in fact, I stated the contrary. And you are right about the modernist universities who try to deny Mary’s Virginity and the historical and real truths about Jesus. It is because of the anti-Catholic, modernistic philosophy which broke open in the last century. Notice though, that such universities are schismatic and do not deserve the name Catholic.

 

[philipmarie]

Blessed be the Holy and Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God! Amen.

 

[Yab_Yum]

If we are dealing with mythic truth why should we doubt Mary’s perpetual virginity any more than, say, Noah’s ark or Adam and Eve? People these days think that truth is only what you can directly perceive. Blame science.