Defending pro-life to secularists

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I have always thought that the pro-life position was one that can be argued from a purely humanitarian perspective and that belief in a particular religion was not necessary to argue the pro-life position. However recently I began thinking about this when I was reading an article by some guy from the “freedom from religion foundation” that was not about abortion but rather about morality. He was arguing that our morality comes from the fact that we as human beings are self-aware and capable of suffering. He criticized the belief in an immortal soul and was arguing about morality from a human suffering standpoint. So it seems that from this perspective the value of the human person has nothing to do with their human-ness but rather their ability to think and most of all their ability to experience pain. 🤷 It made me wonder, and this is my question, is it possible to defend the pro-life position to someone who does not believe in a soul? I mean after all if human life itself is not considered invaluable but rather its ability to suffer, then how can this point be argued as a fertilized egg (zygote) is not yet capable of feeling pain?

I have always thought that the posters on this forum were very insightful and I am eager to hear what people have to say.
 
In college I studied a theory called the FLO “flow” argument which is Future Like Ours. The theory simply stated that it is wrong to abort children because in the future they will be able to fell pain etc. There is at least that argument.

There is also the argument of the pain abortion causes others outside the man/woman. So on a strictly pain argument, theres that.
 
I’m an atheist and completely against abortion. Christopher Hitchens, who was one of the most vocal atheists ever was staunchly against abortion as well and was quoted as saying something along the lines as not being able to think of a reason for a woman to empty out her uterus.

Secularists tend to not see abortion as being as big of a deal as religious people do, possibly because they tend to be more liberal than the average theist… idk. I don’t think it’s right to say that you have to defend pro-life to secularists, but instead just to “pro-choicers”
 
It’s not quite logical that its “ok to kill a baby because it’s not aware” - that logic would make it ok to kill sleeping people.
 
When I told my mother that I was against abortion, she gave me this look that said: “I thought I raised you like a good little girl who was on the side of the woman!” She scoffed at me, obviously disappointed, and said that I was crazy. How am I supposed to defend my view? My family always uses the rape argument, so that’s my main problem. How do I reply when my sister says “Raped women deserve to have control over their bodies. They shouldn’t have to see the face of a child that they didn’t want, a child that was born from rape.” What do I say to that? My family now thinks that I support rape simply because I am pro-life.
 
My stance is that I believe it to be a human being when the egg is planted in the uterus. I think people use the argument that it’s not a human until birth because when it’s just starting to form it looks nothing like a human. Problem in my mind is that the fetus or embryo has the same DNA as a human being. I find it ridiculous to say that a baby isn’t a human if it was stillborn rather than dying a day after being born. As soon as the embryo begins to develop there is not specific point where the physical features of the baby makes a big leap where people could point to it as being human now, it is an extremely gradual process over about 9 months, so people look for a jump which they claim to be birth.

The second issue I have with abortion is that it is ultimately killing a baby for the actions of its parents. When people aren’t careful and get pregnant, they kill the baby because they were immature. I don’t think it’s morally right to punish someone for the actions of their parents. While I do understand that things such as rape do occur and I cannot put myself in those shoes to judge anyone who would have to deal with that and then deal with a constant reminder of being pregnant, but I do believe that it is still punishing the baby for something out of its control.

I read a statistic the other day that in the UK, over 90% of women who are told that their child will likely have Down’s Syndrome abort their baby. I find this extremely depressing. The child has done absolutely nothing wrong and it is literally just saying that you don’t want to deal with it. People want a baby but as soon as they find out that the baby won’t be everything they wished then they say nevermind.

I do believe in women’s rights but I think it’s wrongly labeled. We are talking about giving a woman a window of time to allow them to kill their offspring and change their mind. That is not a woman’s right, but then again, a lot of “pro-choice” people don’t think it’s a human yet. I also think it’s wrong that women in many places at least can get an abortion if they wish, even if the man wishes to keep the baby and willing to raise it himself, but since it’s in the mother’s body they give her the choice of what to do.
 
Hope_Philomena said:
When I told my mother that I was against abortion, she gave me this look that said: “I thought I raised you like a good little girl who was on the side of the woman!” She scoffed at me, obviously disappointed, and said that I was crazy. How am I supposed to defend my view? My family always uses the rape argument, so that’s my main problem. How do I reply when my sister says “Raped women deserve to have control over their bodies. They shouldn’t have to see the face of a child that they didn’t want, a child that was born from rape.” What do I say to that? My family now thinks that I support rape simply because I am pro-life.
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Awesome that you are defending the truth in the face of trials from the family. I have dealt with the same thing, but as Jesus said “For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.” (Matthew 10:35-36)

The point I would start with is that the vast majority of abortions are done out of convenience, not out of rape or incest. Would they then allow just stopping abortions out of convenience? Probably not, because that lets the camel’s nose in the tent and then you see the personhood of the fetus.

I recommend studying and being able to explain the points in this article:

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/a-logical-argument-against-abortion/

Also, you must strenuously object to such claims that you support rape because you support he right to life. You are not anti-woman, you are not pro-rape, you are pro-life. What they said does not follow, it is a non-sequitur. One can be against rape but still understand that human life begins at conception and that all humans have the right to life.
 
Heart beat? Yes? Human being…do not kill 🙂

UNLESS, mother is in danger of dying as a result, then you make a decision based on specific circumstances…

🙂

.
 
Hope_Philomena said:
When I told my mother that I was against abortion, she gave me this look that said: “I thought I raised you like a good little girl who was on the side of the woman!” She scoffed at me, obviously disappointed, and said that I was crazy. How am I supposed to defend my view?
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I would say, “The moment I can place a stethoscope over someone, detect a heart beat and declare ‘This man/woman is dead, it’s now okay to cut up and dispose of the remains.’ Is the moment I will give any credence to the pro-choice view.”
Hope_Philomena said:
My family always uses the rape argument, so that’s my main problem. How do I reply when my sister says “Raped women deserve to have control over their bodies. They shouldn’t have to see the face of a child that they didn’t want, a child that was born from rape.” What do I say to that?
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I would ask you sister and family, “If your father robs a bank, is it okay for the police to arrest you and have you thrown in prison?”

I would also point out to your sister that the Child in the mothers womb has it’s own DNA distinct from the mother, so scientifically, it’s not just her body. I would also point out ‘putting their children up for adoption’ if they don’t want them, instead of killing them.
Hope_Philomena said:
My family now thinks that I support rape simply because I am pro-life.
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I hope you don’t mind if I share with you some quotes on Abortion.

“The pregnant woman doesn’t carry a toothbrush in her womb, nor a tumor. Science teaches us that from the moment of conception, the new being has all the genetic code. It’s not therefore, a religious question but clearly a moral one, based on science.” - Pope Francis

“Abortion is advocated only by persons who have themselves been born.” - Ronald Reagan

“But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?” - Mother Teresa

“What an irony that a society confronted with plastic bags filled with the remains of aborted babies should be more concerned about the problem of recycling the plastic” - Winifred Egan

“To say a child is unwanted says nothing about the child, but it says much about the person who does not want his or her child.” - Jean Staker Garton

"It is not ‘progressive’ to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life…” - Pope Francis

Everything Hitler did was legal - Martin luther King

Those who promote abortion or abortions that seek to snatch from the Author and Lord of life His legitimate and sole rights… you who under the slogan that “a woman has the right to decide about her own body”, are concealing the “right” to kill, which will never be a right.

“The right to life is the first human right. Abortion is killing someone that cannot defend him or herself.” - Pope Francis

“Liberty, what crimes are commited in your name?” - Madame Roland

And more by Pope Francis Here if you are interested.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Jerbear said:
My stance is that I believe it to be a human being when the egg is planted in the uterus. I think people use the argument that it’s not a human until birth because when it’s just starting to form it looks nothing like a human. Problem in my mind is that the fetus or embryo has the same DNA as a human being. I find it ridiculous to say that a baby isn’t a human if it was stillborn rather than dying a day after being born. As soon as the embryo begins to develop there is not specific point where the physical features of the baby makes a big leap where people could point to it as being human now, it is an extremely gradual process over about 9 months, so people look for a jump which they claim to be birth.

The second issue I have with abortion is that it is ultimately killing a baby for the actions of its parents. When people aren’t careful and get pregnant, they kill the baby because they were immature. I don’t think it’s morally right to punish someone for the actions of their parents. While I do understand that things such as rape do occur and I cannot put myself in those shoes to judge anyone who would have to deal with that and then deal with a constant reminder of being pregnant, but I do believe that it is still punishing the baby for something out of its control.

I read a statistic the other day that in the UK, over 90% of women who are told that their child will likely have Down’s Syndrome abort their baby. I find this extremely depressing. The child has done absolutely nothing wrong and it is literally just saying that you don’t want to deal with it. People want a baby but as soon as they find out that the baby won’t be everything they wished then they say nevermind.

I do believe in women’s rights but I think it’s wrongly labeled. We are talking about giving a woman a window of time to allow them to kill their offspring and change their mind. That is not a woman’s right, but then again, a lot of “pro-choice” people don’t think it’s a human yet. I also think it’s wrong that women in many places at least can get an abortion if they wish, even if the man wishes to keep the baby and willing to raise it himself, but since it’s in the mother’s body they give her the choice of what to do.
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👍
Jerbear said:
I’m an atheist and completely against abortion.
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👍
Jerbear said:
Christopher Hitchens, who was one of the most vocal atheists ever was staunchly against abortion as well and was quoted as saying something along the lines as not being able to think of a reason for a woman to empty out her uterus.
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I didn’t know that.
Jerbear said:
Secularists tend to not see abortion as being as big of a deal as religious people do, possibly because they tend to be more liberal than the average theist… idk. I don’t think it’s right to say that you have to defend pro-life to secularists, but instead just to “pro-choicers”
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👍

Thank you Jerbear. 🙂
 
What would that person say about failed abortions? If this “thing”, which we’re not going to say is human :rolleyes:, survives, what’s going on there? If this thing was not alive in the woman’s body, how could it survive? to survive something, you must first be alive.

…and what about babies that are born prematurely? when it comes out, it’s organs are not fully developed yet. Would this person look at a baby, who’s hooked up to machines and is struggling to take a deep breath, and say that it would be OK for the mother/father to decide to have that baby euthanized right then and there?

If it’s not fully developed, it’s not human, so they say. Their gnawing conscience can only be suppressed so much. Try as they may, they can never get rid of that intuition God has given them.
 
Hope_Philomena said:
When I told my mother that I was against abortion, she gave me this look that said: “I thought I raised you like a good little girl who was on the side of the woman!” She scoffed at me, obviously disappointed, and said that I was crazy. How am I supposed to defend my view? My family always uses the rape argument, so that’s my main problem. How do I reply when my sister says “Raped women deserve to have control over their bodies. They shouldn’t have to see the face of a child that they didn’t want, a child that was born from rape.” What do I say to that? My family now thinks that I support rape simply because I am pro-life.
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I would tell your mother that there’s no such thing as “the side of the woman”, because there are women who are pro-life. Rape is wrong, but two wrongs don’t make a right. Don’t let the scoffing get in the way of standing up for what’s right. My family scoffs at my belief that homosexuality is a sin, but that doesn’t stop me.
 
From a rhetorical standpoint, I would actually challenge them on their views. Make them say when they think it’s wrong to kill a baby. Point out that we don’t kill people who go into comas, in fact we think if they will come out that we shouldn’t kill them. As why it is wrong to kill. Most people of this stripe will have a very hard time articulating their reason.
 
Servant19 said:
Heart beat? Yes? Human being…do not kill 🙂

UNLESS, mother is in danger of dying as a result, then you make a decision based on specific circumstances…

🙂

.
Click to expand...
Even if the mother was in danger if dying, she does not have the right to kill her child.
 
Hope_Philomena said:
When I told my mother that I was against abortion, she gave me this look that said: “I thought I raised you like a good little girl who was on the side of the woman!” She scoffed at me, obviously disappointed, and said that I was crazy. How am I supposed to defend my view? My family always uses the rape argument, so that’s my main problem. How do I reply when my sister says **“Raped women deserve to have control over their bodies. They shouldn’t have to see the face of a child that they didn’t want, a child that was born from rape.” **What do I say to that? My family now thinks that I support rape simply because I am pro-life.
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What I have bolded is the crux of the problem from the female’s standpoint, never-mind the principle of the issue.

I believe that the concept of self-sacrifice for their child has been lost in large part in western women.

My two cents.
 
Jerbear said:
I’m an atheist and completely against abortion. Christopher Hitchens, who was one of the most vocal atheists ever was staunchly against abortion as well and was quoted as saying something along the lines as not being able to think of a reason for a woman to empty out her uterus.

Secularists tend to not see abortion as being as big of a deal as religious people do, possibly because they tend to be more liberal than the average theist… idk. I don’t think it’s right to say that you have to defend pro-life to secularists, but instead just to "pro-choicers"
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You are correct, but you have to admit, your position is an exceptionally rare one. I didn’t mean to lump secular humanists and pro-choicers together.
 
benjohnson said:
It’s not quite logical that its “ok to kill a baby because it’s not aware” - that logic would make it ok to kill sleeping people.
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The FFRF guy would probably argue that it is different since a sleeping person has a fully developed cerebral cortex…
 
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