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oneofmany
Guest
Look up on youtube—pro-life atheists. There are pro-life people in most every group. Maybe not Satanists but not sure even of them. There may be.
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drac16
Guest
I would imagine that Satanists would be pro-life on the condition that the baby listens to Marilyn Manson at night time, instead of lullabies.
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jochoa
Guest
Here is a thought:I have always thought that the pro-life position was one that can be argued from a purely humanitarian perspective and that belief in a particular religion was not necessary to argue the pro-life position. However recently I began thinking about this when I was reading an article by some guy from the “freedom from religion foundation” that was not about abortion but rather about morality. He was arguing that our morality comes from the fact that we as human beings are self-aware and capable of suffering. He criticized the belief in an immortal soul and was arguing about morality from a human suffering standpoint. So it seems that from this perspective the value of the human person has nothing to do with their human-ness but rather their ability to think and most of all their ability to experience pain.It made me wonder, and this is my question, is it possible to defend the pro-life position to someone who does not believe in a soul? I mean after all if human life itself is not considered invaluable but rather its ability to suffer, then how can this point be argued as a fertilized egg (zygote) is not yet capable of feeling pain?
I have always thought that the posters on this forum were very insightful and I am eager to hear what people have to say.
As a human, we are going to experience pain, and we are going to die. Within this existence, it is better to grow in creativity rather than destruction. One’s life will be more enjoyable, as well more independently stable.
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benjohnson
Guest
Yes, that’s usually the counter… and it draw them close to the trap:
I counter that both will have a active concious cerebral cortex: The sleeper in a few hours, and the child in a few months.
If they still don’t accept that parallel, then I move on to the example of the long-term comatose.
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Servant19
Guest
Hello Johnny, I appreciate your perspective, and it is very valid, however some questions need to be answered.
Why is the mother not innocent and worthy of being saved? The husband’s life, her other children’s lives may all be very adversely affected.
Who decides who has the right to live? And do we not have faith that the death of an unborn child will be met with the loving justice and mercy of an All-Merciful, All-Just, and All-Loving Creator?
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SteveVH
Guest
Who said she was not worthy of being saved? Morally, we must do all that we can to save both lives. Very seldom does it come down to a choice of “mother or baby”. But when it does, any parent should be willing to give their own life for that of their child. You should read the story of St. Gianna Beretta Molla.
God. And he has told us that we do not have the right to kill each other, especially the most innocent and defenseless among us. In our society today it is the strong who believe they have the right to impose their decision on the weak. Completely immoral.
If we follow this way of thinking to its logical conclusion then we probably should just kill all babies so that they are guaranteed entrance into heaven.And do we not have faith that the death of an unborn child will be met with the loving justice and mercy of an All-Merciful, All-Just, and All-Loving Creator?
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SteveVH
Guest
Most people who defend abortion would be absolutely offended if I climbed a tree to an eagle’s nest and began tossing the eggs to the ground. As a matter of fact, I would be arrested and face either prison, a giant monetary fine or both. But why? After all, they were only fertilized eggs, right? Not really eagles at all.I have always thought that the pro-life position was one that can be argued from a purely humanitarian perspective and that belief in a particular religion was not necessary to argue the pro-life position. However recently I began thinking about this when I was reading an article by some guy from the “freedom from religion foundation” that was not about abortion but rather about morality. He was arguing that our morality comes from the fact that we as human beings are self-aware and capable of suffering. He criticized the belief in an immortal soul and was arguing about morality from a human suffering standpoint. So it seems that from this perspective the value of the human person has nothing to do with their human-ness but rather their ability to think and most of all their ability to experience pain.
I have always thought that the posters on this forum were very insightful and I am eager to hear what people have to say.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
That is a pretty powerful argument.
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Servant19
Guest
Very valid responses SteveWho said she was not worthy of being saved? Morally, we must do all that we can to save both lives. Very seldom does it come down to a choice of “mother or baby”. But when it does, any parent should be willing to give their own life for that of their child. You should read the story of St. Gianna Beretta Molla.
God. And he has told us that we do not have the right to kill each other, especially the most innocent and defenseless among us. In our society today it is the strong who believe they have the right to impose their decision on the weak. Completely immoral.
If we follow this way of thinking to its logical conclusion then we probably should just kill all babies so that they are guaranteed entrance into heaven.
My wife lost two babies through natural causes in the space of 3 years. We requested the foetus on both occasions from the obstetrician.
We are the only family I know to have conducted a full burial service and a gravestone for our pre-first- trimester unborn children
Not writing this to boast, but to acknowledge the reverence you have displayed in your post and to show you that we are indeed on the same page.
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atheistgirl
Guest
As with everything else to do with the late great Christopher, his was a very nuanced position:
us-politics.yoexpert.com/political-issues/is-christopher-hitchens-pro-life-1859.html
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Servant19
Guest
Off topic, but I like your signature SarahAs with everything else to do with the late great Christopher, his was a very nuanced position:
us-politics.yoexpert.com/political-issues/is-christopher-hitchens-pro-life-1859.html
Sarah x
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atheistgirl
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SteveVH
Guest
You did the right thing in providing a burial for your unborn child. All human beings have an inherent dignity regardless of their stage of development. Glad to hear that we are on the same page.Very valid responses Steve
My wife lost two babies through natural causes in the space of 3 years. We requested the foetus on both occasions from the obstetrician.
We are the only family I know to have conducted a full burial service and a gravestone for our pre-first- trimester unborn children
Not writing this to boast, but to acknowledge the reverence you have displayed in your post and to show you that we are indeed on the same page.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
This clearly exemplifies an example of why I can not practice your faith. When it does come down to “mother or baby” you choose for the mother. To impose your decision on her. Expecting her to allow herself to die, to basically kill herself. Affecting many lives. Hers. Her husband’s. The lives of any other children in the family. Your view would require the other children in the family to be without their mother. It would also affect the lives of her other loved ones. Her parents. Her siblings. All lives are sacred and important. And as a result I can not find the very difficult topic of abortion so cut and dried and black and white.Who said she was not worthy of being saved? Morally, we must do all that we can to save both lives. Very seldom does it come down to a choice of “mother or baby”. But when it does, any parent should be willing to give their own life for that of their child. You should read the story of St. Gianna Beretta Molla.
God. And he has told us that we do not have the right to kill each other, especially the most innocent and defenseless among us. In our society today it is the strong who believe they have the right to impose their decision on the weak. Completely immoral.
If we follow this way of thinking to its logical conclusion then we probably should just kill all babies so that they are guaranteed entrance into heaven.
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atjar
Guest
You are right; two wrongs don’t make a right. A 15-year-old raped by her father should not be wronged by having to give birth to this abomination of an act, the product of criminal activity. She should not have to go through life being wronged by the psychic damage and humiliation of having to become a mother, as a child, of a child that’s the produce of rape and incest and a felonious criminal act. Would it be OK if the result of inbreeding like this caused a brain damaged child, the result of inbreeding a genetic defect that existed in the family and that came out as a result of incest?
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
AJ
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SteveVH
Guest
Really? Please explain how I impose anything on any mother. I merely state my position based upon the teachings of my Church. It is obvious, given the number of abortions taking place in this country (3,500 per day) that the Church is not imposing anything on anyone. It simply offers moral guidance and those who wish to ignore or reject this guidance are free to do as they please. They will have to answer to God for their actions.
I would give my life for any of my children. This would leave them without a father and my wife without a husband, yet it would still be the right thing to do. Would you not give your life for your child?
As I have said, however, we should do all in our power to save both lives.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I understand you state Catholic teaching. But to answer your question, by Catholics opposing any legal choice on the matter in even the most tragic of cases. So no. Actually in those cases when you said it can come down to “mother or baby”, I don’t see you wanting her to be free to do as she pleases but wanting to forbid her the right to choose even in cases to protect her own health and life and the lives of others which would be affected. Please don’t take me wrong. Abortion is very tragic. Is not something anyone should take lightly. But as I’ve said all the lives affected are sacred and important to consider. I’m childless but I’m less convinced or less certain than you I guess that God would want me to choose to leave my other children without their mother or father. What I am certain of is I am just grateful I don’t have to walk in another’s shoes at times.
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SteveVH
Guest
“Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:13)
How much more our children?
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
Purely secular argument? Pain. There is no way a fetus does’t feel pain during an abortion. Neurological tissue is in place very early and forms a rudimentary brain extremely early. Tell them to study embryology and philosophy. A class in each would suffice. I have two degrees in biology and hope to finish up my molecular biology (biochemistry) master’s degree within a few years. I also took a few philosophy courses. The biggest gaps in our education system occurs in critical thinking, philosophy and science. Hence the apathy. Any reasonable person can connect the dots with a more well-rounded education.
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Servant19
Guest
Hi Steve, what is your understanding of this verse? That we should commit suicide while saying “this is for my friends and kids”?
Or might it mean that we should sacrifice every limb and nerve in performing selfless service to others?
To “give up ones life” does not mean death in this instance I feel.
Of course, if in a situation where I was going to be murdered or my child, I would tell the murderer to kill me of course, but I think this verse applies to selflessness of a different note
My humble opinion
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