Defending pro-life to secularists

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, what is your understanding of this verse? That we should commit suicide while saying “this is for my friends and kids”?

Please give me the quote where I said that we should commit suicide?

A mother making the decision not to abort her baby even if it means risking her own life is not committing suicide. She desires to live as much as any of us but is willing to lay down her life for her baby if that is what is necessary in order to save it.

Or might it mean that we should sacrifice every limb and nerve in performing selfless service to others?

Or it may mean exactly what it says.

To “give up ones life” does not mean death in this instance I feel.

Tell that to Jesus Christ as he was hanging on the cross.

Of course, if in a situation where I was going to be murdered or my child, I would tell the murderer to kill me of course, but I think this verse applies to selflessness of a different note

My humble opinion

.

And you are entitled to your humble opinion.

 

[drac16]

You are right; two wrongs don’t make a right. A 15-year-old raped by her father should not be wronged by having to give birth to this abomination of an act, the product of criminal activity. She should not have to go through life being wronged by the psychic damage and humiliation of having to become a mother, as a child, of a child that’s the produce of rape and incest and a felonious criminal act. Would it be OK if the result of inbreeding like this caused a brain damaged child, the result of inbreeding a genetic defect that existed in the family and that came out as a result of incest?

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

AJ

A baby that’s born as the result of incest is still a creature of God even before it’s born-- and it’s still entitled a chance to live, even if it has brain damage. I don’t know if I’d say that a 15 year old is a child raising a child per se; it depends on the maturity of the girl. There are 15 year olds who are more wise and mature than many 20 year olds.

I cannot imagine the emotional turmoil that that 15 year old would go through, but that doesn’t give her the right to pass by the responsibility of caring for the child. I weould gladly be a listening ear to someone like that; I would labour with her through that period of darkness and minister to her accordingly (i.e. being a comforting soul, laying before her the promises of Allah azza wa jal, etc).

That child in her womb, though… it doesn’t belong to her-- it belongs to God. As it says in the Qur’an “To Allah belongeth the Mystery of the heavens and the earth. And the Decision of the Hour (of Judgment) is as the twingkling of an eye, or even quicker: for Allah hath power over all things. It is He Who brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers when ye knew nothing; and He gave you hearing and sight and intelligence and affections: that ye may give thanks (to Allah).”(surah 16:77-78)

“Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood” (surah 96:1-2)

She may not have wanted to get pregnant or to become a mother, but she still has responsibilities given to her. Everyone has responsibilities, even if they don’t want to have them. There are all kinds of things I didn’t choose to have, but I still am responsible for doing what God tells me to do. For example, if I have clinical depression, but I did not choose to get it, I still have the responsibility to not to act out any desires I may have to harm myself. Just because I didn’t choose something, that doesn’t give me a free pass to opt out of being responsible.

What could be more responsible that caring for our own kind? especially someone who cannot stick up for themselves!

 

[SteveVH]

You are right; two wrongs don’t make a right. A 15-year-old raped by her father should not be wronged by having to give birth to this abomination of an act, the product of criminal activity.

No one has ever given birth to an “abomination of an act”. The 15 year old rape victim would be giving birth to a child; an innocent, defenseless child who had nothing to do with the crime committed by the rapist. Why do you suppose that this innocent child should receive the death penalty for a crime it did not commit?

She should not have to go through life being wronged by the psychic damage and humiliation of having to become a mother, as a child, of a child that’s the produce of rape and incest and a felonious criminal act.

She should not have to go through the experience of being raped at all. But killing the baby is not going to make it go away. Instead of one horrendous crime we now have two; a rape and a murder.

 

[atheistgirl]

For example, if I have clinical depression, but I did not choose to get it, I still have the responsibility to not to act out any desires I may have to harm myself. Just because I didn’t choose something, that doesn’t give me a free pass to opt out of being responsible.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who is suffering with clinical depression and self harms, has abdicated their responsibilities to Allah and has sinned?

Sarah x

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by drac16
For example, if I have clinical depression, but I did not choose to get it, I still have the responsibility to not to act out any desires I may have to harm myself. Just because I didn’t choose something, that doesn’t give me a free pass to opt out of being responsible.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who is suffering with clinical depression and self harms, has abdicated their responsibilities to Allah and has sinned?

Sarah x

If I may, I think drac is making a valid point in that we are not free to act unjustly or immorally simply because we have been dealt a certain hand in life. This, however, assumes that we have the intellectual and psychological capability to be responsible for our own actions. When dealing with something like clinical depression I believe that there are degrees of severity which certainly would mitigate one’s responsibility for their actions. God knows the heart of everyone and judges us accordingly.

 

[atheistgirl]

If I may, I think drac is making a valid point in that we are not free to act unjustly or immorally simply because we have been dealt a certain hand in life.

I agree, but based on the assumptions you accept below:

This, however, assumes that we have the intellectual and psychological capability to be responsible for our own actions. When dealing with something like clinical depression I believe that there are degrees of severity which certainly would mitigate one’s responsibility for their actions. God knows the heart of everyone and judges us accordingly.

I think the comments made showed either a total lack of insight into clinical depression and how it can affect a person, or a callous hardness of heart to someone living with a serious mental illness.

People living with clinical depression who self harm need medical, social and psychological help, along with lots understanding, patience love and care - not judgment!

Sarah x

 

[SteveVH]

I think the comments made showed either a total lack of insight into clinical depression and how it can affect a person, or a callous hardness of heart to someone living with a serious mental illness.

Or maybe it just wasn’t the best analogy to use. Even so, there are degrees of this illness which may not completely incapacitate a person leaving them with some degree of responsibility. I don’t think we should just assume that drac is heartless. He doesn’t seem to be that kind of person to me.

People living with clinical depression who self harm need medical, social and psychological help, along with lots understanding, patience love and care - not judgment!

Sarah x

I couldn’t agree more!

 

[atheistgirl]

Or maybe it just wasn’t the best analogy to use. Even so, there are degrees of this illness which may not completely incapacitate a person leaving them with some degree of responsibility.

Given that thoughts of self harming were linked to the clinical depression I think it’s clear the poster had in mind that degree of illness that would cause thoughts of self harm.

I don’t think we should just assume that drac is heartless. He doesn’t seem to be that kind of person to me.

I apologize for the clumsy way I worded that - I should have made it clear I am referring to the *comments *and how they come across - to me anyways, not the poster personally.

Sarah x

 

[drac16]

Are you seriously suggesting that someone who is suffering with clinical depression and self harms, has abdicated their responsibilities to Allah and has sinned?

Sarah x

Have they sinned? I believe so, yes. If a car is loaned to me and I decide to key it, spraypaint it all different colours and dent the doors, that’s not being responsible. Our bodies are loaned to us in the sense that they aren’t eternal. It’s not my place to say, that if someone harms themself, that takes them out of the fold of Islam. Nor am I qualified to say that a muslim who has an abortion is automatically out of our religion.

Muslims, like anyone else, sin all the time. Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] was famous for saying that he repents 70 times a day. Whether a person who hurts themself is actually a muslim is not my call. That’s a matter of the heart. I’m not the judge of that.

 

[atjar]

No one has ever given birth to an “abomination of an act”. The 15 year old rape victim would be giving birth to a child; an innocent, defenseless child who had nothing to do with the crime committed by the rapist. Why do you suppose that this innocent child should receive the death penalty for a crime it did not commit?

She should not have to go through the experience of being raped at all. But killing the baby is not going to make it go away. Instead of one horrendous crime we now have two; a rape and a murder.

And why should the 15 year old receive a death penalty on this eartk for a crime she didn’t commit? Would u still b advocating for the unborn if this teen killed herself for what had happened to her and the life she would have to lead with an incest birth defect child?

 

[atheistgirl]

Have they sinned? I believe so, yes.

I believe you are wrong.

And I don’t you would find many who would think that someone who is clinically depressed *to the point *of self harming is either fully in control of their thoughts, has sufficient emotional resilience or is in any way culpable for a sin of self harming.

As I said, what these people need is medical, social and psychological help along with lots of patience, understanding, love and care from those around them and their community.

It’s saddens me to think in the moments of their deepest, darkest crises, there are some who find it in them not to reach out in love and compassion, but to compound their feels of despair by adding a layer of ‘‘sin’’ to their woes.

Sarah x

 

[Sy_Noe]

And why should the 15 year old receive a death penalty on this eartk for a crime she didn’t commit? Would u still b advocating for the unborn if this teen killed herself for what had happened to her and the life she would have to lead with an incest birth defect child?

If she had killed herself for what happened to her and for the life she would have been forced to lead, wouldn’t Catholics believe she had sinned? And would they say she committed a mortal sin? So I don’t know but my guess is they would say she sinned and they would still advocate for the unborn conceived by incest with the birth defect you described. Someone practicing the faith will have to confirm though.

In any case your posts further demonstrate for me at least why I can’t always see black and white.

 

[SteveVH]

And why should the 15 year old receive a death penalty on this eartk for a crime she didn’t commit? Would u still b advocating for the unborn if this teen killed herself for what had happened to her and the life she would have to lead with an incest birth defect child?

Even then, as tragic as your hypothetical situation may seem, it is still not the fault of the baby. Why do you believe that killing her unborn child would somehow make the situation better? What she needs is a loving family and community who will help her and her child get through such a tragedy. There is a long line of people waiting to adopt such a child, birth defects and all.

You are dodging my original question, however. Please answer this. Why should the baby, who is completely innocent, defenseless and without a voice in the matter receive the death penalty for a crime it did not commit? Explain to me how this is just and morally correct?

I find it strange that those in favor of aborting babies believe that those of us who oppose it are somehow cold and callous and have no concern whatsoever for the mother. There are organizations all over the world whose only purpose is to support the mother and the child in these types of circumstances, the Catholic Church being at the forefront. We value all life; the life of the mother and the life of her unborn child and are ready to back that up with real help for both.

 

[SteveVH]

If she had killed herself for what happened to her and for the life she would have been forced to lead, wouldn’t Catholics believe she had sinned?

Maybe, but not necessarily. It is never right to take one’s own life, however the degree of one’s culpability depends upon many circumstances. I am a music minister in my Church. As such I have provided music at hundreds of funerals, some of which were a result of suicide. I have never heard the Church pronounce that such a person is condemned. Instead we offer prayers for them and rely on God’s mercy to save them. We specifically ask that they be allowed to enter heaven. The Church is not here to condemn but rather to forgive and beg God’s mercy.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Even then, as tragic as your hypothetical situation may seem, it is still not the fault of the baby. Why do you believe that killing her unborn child would somehow make the situation better? What she needs is a loving family and community who will help her and her child get through such a tragedy. There is a long line of people waiting to adopt such a child, birth defects and all.

You are dodging my original question, however. Please answer this. Why should the baby, who is completely innocent, defenseless and without a voice in the matter receive the death penalty for a crime it did not commit? Explain to me how this is just and morally correct?

I find it strange that those in favor of aborting babies believe that those of us who oppose it are somehow cold and callous and have no concern whatsoever for the mother. There are organizations all over the world whose only purpose is to support the mother and the child in these types of circumstances, the Catholic Church being at the forefront. We value all life; the life of the mother and the life of her unborn child and are ready to back that up with real help for both.

Hi Steve, I can speak only for myself but I wouldn’t say aborting the unborn fetus in this situation makes everything better. The situation would be tragic all around. And yes adoption is a wonderful alternative. But after she had been an innocent victim of such a horrible assault, this poor teenage girl would be in for an extremely difficult time ahead as it were. So I’m just not sure in such a case it would be better for her either, to force her if it is not her choice, to expound upon the trauma she endured and undoubtedly would have ahead, by forcing her to carry to term for 9 mos. Or if it’s not her choice after praying upon her decision and consulting with her mother, her pastor, her medical and psychological team. We’ll leave the father out of it since he was the perpetrator of it all. Just a tragic circumstance all around for which I am afraid may offer no perfect solution. Which again is why I am grateful I have not had to walk in such shoes. Anyway I don’t believe for a minute you are callous. And I would hope Catholics and others who oppose any choice at all no matter the circumstance come to realize the same about others. We are not the callous, heartless, murderers with blood on our hands that we are too often painted to be. (I was just told on CAF recently my hands were bloody which is I use that terminology.) Peace and God bless you, Steve.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Maybe, but not necessarily. It is never right to take one’s own life, however the degree of one’s culpability depends upon many circumstances. I am a music minister in my Church. As such I have provided music at hundreds of funerals, some of which were a result of suicide. I have never heard the Church pronounce that such a person is condemned. Instead we offer prayers for them and rely on God’s mercy to save them. We specifically ask that they be allowed to enter heaven. The Church is not here to condemn but rather to forgive and beg God’s mercy.

Yes so basically the CC would accuse her of mortal sin but of course not even the CC can know if God took her and held her in His arms for all eternity.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes so basically the CC would accuse her of mortal sin but of course not even the CC can know if God took her and held her in His arms for all eternity.

Did you even read what I wrote? I think I said just the opposite; that we would pray for her and commend her to the mercy of God in whom we have great confidence. There is no “accusing” involved. We want her, as we want every other person in the world, to enter heaven and live with God for eternity.

“May angels guide you and bring you into Paradise,
and may all the martyrs come to welcome you home…” (In Paradisum)

This has been sung at every funeral, including those who have committed suicide, that I have ever attended and I have attended hundreds of them as a music minister, more than a few of these being suicides. Does that sound like accusing them of mortal sin?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Did you even read what I wrote? I think I said just the opposite; that we would pray for her and commend her to the mercy of God in whom we have great confidence. There is no “accusing” involved. We want her, as we want every other person in the world, to enter heaven and live with God for eternity.

“May angels guide you and bring you into Paradise,
and may all the martyrs come to welcome you home…” (In Paradisum)

This has been sung at every funeral, including those who have committed suicide, that I have ever attended and I have attended hundreds of them as a music minister, more than a few of these being suicides. Does that sound like accusing them of mortal sin?

The same words were spoken at my mother’s funeral. She didn’t commit suicide. But yes they do bring great comfort. Yes of course, Steve, I read what you wrote. But I’m also reading from a booklet outlining the Catholic Faith. Granted it’s old so things could have changed. But it says, “Mortal sin is a serious offense against God. It kills the grace in the soul and merits eternal damnation”. And then in a list of serious sins, it lists suicide. So I’m sorry but I don’t see what was wrong with how I described it. I don’t see “opposite” but that actually what I said is indeed exactly what the CC says. It says suicide is considered a serious sin. A serious sin is considered to be a mortal sin. So the person is said (maybe you don’t like the word accused so I’ll say said)) to have committed a mortal sin. Assuming of course they (or the 15 yr old girl who was raped in the possible situation we were discussing) knew with full knowledge what they were committing is a grave matter. But of course you/me/we pray for mercy.

 

[Sarabande]

I have always thought that the pro-life position was one that can be argued from a purely humanitarian perspective and that belief in a particular religion was not necessary to argue the pro-life position. However recently I began thinking about this when I was reading an article by some guy from the “freedom from religion foundation” that was not about abortion but rather about morality. He was arguing that our morality comes from the fact that we as human beings are self-aware and capable of suffering. He criticized the belief in an immortal soul and was arguing about morality from a human suffering standpoint. So it seems that from this perspective the value of the human person has nothing to do with their human-ness but rather their ability to think and most of all their ability to experience pain. It made me wonder, and this is my question, is it possible to defend the pro-life position to someone who does not believe in a soul? I mean after all if human life itself is not considered invaluable but rather its ability to suffer, then how can this point be argued as a fertilized egg (zygote) is not yet capable of feeling pain?

I have always thought that the posters on this forum were very insightful and I am eager to hear what people have to say.

I have not read through the entire thread as I have been hard pressed for time, but I thought these sites might help. While I’m a Catholic, I do know people who are “secular”, atheist and prolife and the movement is slowly growing. None of it is based on religious and spiritual aspects of how life is viewed (obviously since they are secularists/atheists/etc.), but they have focused more on the science and logic behind being pro-life as those who do not believe in a God. I actually follow these sites and FB pages because I think it is important to see the perspectives of those who could be or are currently pro-life and to respect them for their non-religious stances on being pro-life. My own ideas on abortion also come from a more secular standpoint and has been that way long before I met pro-life secularists and even knew about the sites, since I come from a medical family and learned it more from a scientific standpoint rather than a religious or emotional one.

Now, as they are secular, there might be some variations in the ideas of abortions, use of contraception, etc., so not all Catholics and people of other religious faiths may not agree with everything, but I do think it is good to get the word out about them since the media rarely does. I have found that non-religious people tend to be more open-minded about pro-life issues when religion is taken out.

Secular Pro-Life
(The latest blog entry, incidentally is about NFP.)
blog.secularprolife.org/

Here is their FB page:
facebook.com/secularprolife

Pro-Life Humanists
prolifehumanists.org/

These aren’t outright “secular” pro-life groups, but they are groups that most people wouldn’t expect.

feministsforlife.org/

plagal.org/

Here is a list of secular pro-life organisations who attended the March for Life March. Attendance by these groups have grown.

righttoliferoch.org/nsecularorgsatMarch2014.htm

Article from “The Catholic Reporter”
“Atheist, Secular and Pro-Life”
catholicworldreport.com/Item/1909/atheist_secular_and_prolife.aspx

I probably won’t have a chance to really check up on this site again for quite a while, so I hope at least some of this info is useful for you. It was for me when discussing these issues with pro-choice people (religious or atheists).

 

[SteveVH]

The same words were spoken at my mother’s funeral. She didn’t commit suicide. But yes they do bring great comfort. Yes of course, Steve, I read what you wrote. But I’m also reading from a booklet outlining the Catholic Faith. Granted it’s old so things could have changed. But it says, “Mortal sin is a serious offense against God. It kills the grace in the soul and merits eternal damnation”. And then in a list of serious sins, it lists suicide. So I’m sorry but I don’t see what was wrong with how I described it.

Yes, mortal sin is a serious offense against God. In fact, it is a deadly offense.

Taking one’s own life, if that one has all of his faculties, is a mortal (deadly) sin. But the Church does not just go down a checklist and proclaim that one is damned out of hand. It recognizes extenuating circumstances such as mental illness, undue pressure or extreme abuse that mitigate one’s culpability. Christ did not command his Church to go out and condemn people. It is to be an instrument of his saving mercy and grace. It is not contrary to love to inform people of the eternal consequences of their actions. To those of us who do violate God’s commands the Church is there to forgive and heal, if we only ask.

I don’t see “opposite” but that actually what I said is indeed exactly what the CC says. It says suicide is considered a serious sin. A serious sin is considered to be a mortal sin. So the person is said (maybe you don’t like the word accused so I’ll say said)) to have committed a mortal sin. Assuming of course they (or the 15 yr old girl who was raped in the possible situation we were discussing) knew with full knowledge what they were committing is a grave matter.

Then what is the problem? Do you believe that a person with all of his or her faculties that commits suicide is not guilty of a serious sin? Should this just be an option for every person with no consequences?