DEFENDING the 10 commandments - need your help

[mab23]

so as usual im having a discussion. and ive come across a topic I haven’t dealt with before

If the commandments are written in order of importance it doesn’t illustrate much about morality as it does god’s ego.

1. No other gods or graven images. It states he’s a jealous god but without that wording it’s implied. If god truly wanted this he wouldn’t allow so many religions to flourish. Or, he never intervenes in earthly matters but you can’t have both. Jealousy is a human emotion not one I’d imagine someone so powerful to have.
   To forbid graven images of god or false gods. This one is left out of Catholicism and Christianity. If it was observed think of all the beautiful art we wouldn’t have; of Jesus, his mother etc. So that part of the commandment is ignored so must not be important to anyone except god.

1. Taking the lord’s name in vain. I don’t know how this or the previous makes humanity more moral. I also don’t think we’ve quite worked out how to obey this or what constitutes a violation.

1. Keep the Sabbath day holy. It’s charming but doesn’t make you moral and obviously public servants and doctors couldn’t obey this commandment. How moral would it be if you had a heart attack and the ambulance and doctors said sorry, it’s Sunday and I don’t work. You’d be breaking the commandment not to kill in a way as an accomplice to death. It also implies god was exhausted after creating everything and needed a nap or a break. That part confuses me and it also implies he took the day off to praise himself.

1. Honor your father and mother. There’s nothing too harmful here except in the case where the only thing you owe them is a thanks for not aborting you. Some parents physically and sexually abuse their children or murder. So this should come with an exception and doesn’t really involve morality rather if the parents were good people the child would foolishly display rebellion against their parents but I’m not sure that’s quite a morality issue as opposed to ungrateful.

1. No adultery. Not too much to argue here other than it’s more of an infringement on your own personal relationship vs morality for the good of all. I wouldn’t break this one but if this is the only thing you’re guilty of and you’ve lived a good moral life outside of that you should be awarded heaven. There’s a biological and evolutionary drive that is stronger in some and without proper discipline mistakes can be made. The person on the wounded end of this might be the only one who thinks you should suffer hell for it.

9 & 10. I’ll combine them, because when written in full it includes to not covet your neighbor’s house, wife, servants, ox, ***, or any possessions. I have 3 thinkable objections. 1) The female of the human species is equivalent to the chattel. 2) You’re being convicted of thought crime. Here you’re not forbidden to do anything, you’re forbidden to even think about something. 3) It’s an attempt to suppress a desire that must have been put there by god in the first place or else how would we know. The acquiring of “goods” for survival is an evolutionary desire but not important today for us with our surplus. Also, to desire better things for yourself isn’t necessarily bad, it makes someone work harder or smarter to attain a life they find appealing. Who hasn’t coveted a relationship, house, vehicle, job etc that someone has. Nothing to do with morals and can be a healthy motivator.

I see a god who is short of temper, improvises, is jealous, and inconsistent. If this wasn’t made by god and I have no reason to believe it was, the real author(s) have the attributes I described.

**my starting response

First off God gives man free will so man can make false Gods if he wants, but God gave us his rules and the ability for force them. God didn’t make mindless machines that does what he wants he made us and we have a choice to make - and he shows us the right choice. - so saying he wouldn’t have allowed so many religions isn’t an valid argument

and the Graven images part, you have to read on - no graven images to bow down or worship no Christian worships an image or statue - we worship God. although we have pictures/ statues for symbols , "remember for the first 1500 years a lot of people were illiterate and were taught the gospels through pictures and images. also use for veneration but never for worship

for the Lords name in vain -you must clearly see the first 4 commandments are for how we are to love God and the 6 others are how to Love/treat Man - clearly we shouldn’t use the Lords name in vain. just like I wouldn’t dream of using my wifes name in vain or my parents let alone the Creator of Everything

Keeping the the Sabbath day is part of the old covenant never the less - we do keep the Lords day holy by going to church and praying - sometimes people may have to work - but there is also Saturday and many mass times. your statement of implying God’s exhaustion does not hold up. and your hypothetical scenario of the heart attack is not only unrealistic but you are twisting what keep the holy the Sabbath day means to be ridiculous.

we Honor our Father and Mother because they created us - and they take care of us - of course if you have abusive or evil parents this changes things - remember the 10 commandments are guidelines your playing a technicality game

this is what I got so far any thoughts or help is appreciated**

 

[mymamamary]

I’d love to talk to the guy who wrote it, becuase he says that desiring material goods is a “evolutionary and neseescary blah blah blah” (sorry, I cant process poor quality intellecutal ********), then why was St. Francis of Assisi and every other Saint so happy when they renounced the very things he says we need “by evolution”, using the fake theory of evolution as an excuse and cop-out for his greed.

 

[Rainaldo]

Have fun with this, learn a lot. But keep in mind it is 100% ignorant hogwash.

It’s not a complete waste of time but it comes close, so I’ll briefly weigh in on just one paragraph:

  	 				If the commandments are written in order of importance it doesn’t illustrate much about morality as it does god’s ego.

1. No other gods or graven images. It states he’s a jealous god but without that wording it’s implied. If god truly wanted this he wouldn’t allow so many religions to flourish. Or, he never intervenes in earthly matters but you can’t have both. Jealousy is a human emotion not one I’d imagine someone so powerful to have.

If you think the commandments are in the wrong order, then go look up what happens to a society when the First Commandment is outlawed. You don’t need to look further than the 20th century. The remaining nine commandments are inevitably violated.

Anyhoo, it is appropriate that God be jealous. Jealousy is sorrow that another person has a good thing. Worship - as well as things connected with it, such as ordering our lives in light of a principle - is a good thing. When we worship something that is not God, we give it a good thing. But when we order our lives in light of something that is not God, that is bad for us, because God is our good. Therefore God is sorrowful that false gods are receiving our worship, for in doing so, we debase ourselves by turning away from our true good.

The difference is that jealousy is petty when you are a creature, but logical if you really are the Good of the Universe.

 

[Polycarp1]

Before trying to answer the questions posed let’s consider a few facts. God has no ego that needs stroking. God is perfect. We have nothing that we can give to God that would add to His perfection. We are created in the image of God. His truth is written on our hearts. There is no such thing as athiests, only liars who deny what they know in their hearts to be true. God wants us to honor and praise Him for our benefit, not His.

God created us because knowing that it was possible thought that we might like being created. He wants us to love Him because loving Him is good for us, not Him.

God is love. God also being the Truth knows that true love can only be given freely and not forced. That’s why we and the Angels have freewill so we can choose. God created everything by an act of His positive will and by that will holds everything in existence, including us. We couldn’t even catch our next breath unless God gave it to us.

God doesn’t sit around in heaven thinking what is truth. God is truth. His commandments are truth, always have been and always will be. They are written on our hearts from the moment we are created. God didn’t create rules (commandments) to make our lives miserable, He only revealed to us truths that always have been and always will be truths.

God is just. Everything good or bad has a consequence which reflects God’s justice. How we choose, as in nature (which also reflects God) and all creation, has consequences.

Knowing all this It’s a wonder we have the arrogance even to question God. But he knows we are weak sinners, and He instilled curiosity and wonder in us. He not only puts up with us but really loves us! He even wants us to live with Him in paradise for all eternity, but won’t force even that upon us. We have to choose. Following God’s commandments is a yes, and not following them until physical death without sincere repentence is a no. There’s a deadline, physical death. At that point our answer will be clear by how we responded to God during our lives. There will be no trial as there will be no excuses. Eternity with God = Heaven. Eternity without God = hell.

What was the question again?

 

[mab23]

**Thanks for the responses

keep em coming **

 

[Faithdancer]

Can you not share the source, mab23? Of course, the writing is nonsense, sounds like it comes from a militant unbeliever, possibly apostate, based on some passages. The mocking, arrogant tone and language make it abundantly clear that the author rejects God and all His love. If it wasn’t written by a CAF visitor it certainly reads like some of the smarmy, insulting nonsense we have to put up with here on CAF- comparing belief in God with belief in the Easter bunny, etc. I’m at the point where I wish all those people would just go away. I gain absolutely nothing from dialogue with people who write garbage like this.

 

[mab23]

Can you not share the source, mab23? Of course, the writing is nonsense, sounds like it comes from a militant unbeliever. The mocking, arrogant tone and language make it abundantly clear that the author rejects God and all His love. How sad.

oh its a person on facebook - its not a actual blog or website

 

[zz912]

This person has not fully even begun to comprehend the fullness of who God is. Even if he doesn’t believe in Him, if he contemplated the nature of what Christians claim as God, he would begin to understand how silly his arguments truly are.

First, God is NOT a bigger version of ourselves. His writing is predicated on this assumption. Here is one example that helps to give some perspective. The human body contains 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (that’s 27 zeros, or seven billion billion billion) atoms. To say God created them gives the wrong impression. God ACTIVELY wills their existence at EVERY moment in time. He is CONSTANTLY “thinking” of each atom and giving His will that it should remain in existence. Now realize that this is just ONE human. When you start to expand, and realize that He does this for the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, the universe, and beyond. He does this for EVERYTHING, all at ONE time, ALL the time. Now you are just beginning to comprehend what infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent means.

Now again, even if he doesn’t believe in Him, it doesn’t matter for this argument. You are discussing the propriety of the 10 Commandments. He needs to understand properly the nature of God as not just a bigger version of ourselves. Once you begin to do this, the layout and set up of the 10 Commandments makes sense.

As God is the source of everything that we are, and the source of everything we have, it is right and just that we acknowledge Him. And He is jealous, not in human terms, but in God’s terms. He has given us absolutely EVERYTHING, without any reservation. All He rightly wants from us is to acknowledge Him, to show Him some of the love that He has bestowed upon us.

Once you get the fundamentals down, the discussion can go from there. Until you get his misconceptions straightened out, the arguments will be fruitless.

 

[Faithdancer]

This person has not fully even begun to comprehend the fullness of who God is. Even if he doesn’t believe in Him, if he contemplated the nature of what Christians claim as God, he would begin to understand how silly his arguments truly are.

First, God is NOT a bigger version of ourselves. His writing is predicated on this assumption. Here is one example that helps to give some perspective. The human body contains 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (that’s 27 zeros, or seven billion billion billion) atoms. To say God created them gives the wrong impression. God ACTIVELY wills their existence at EVERY moment in time. He is CONSTANTLY “thinking” of each atom and giving His will that it should remain in existence. Now realize that this is just ONE human. When you start to expand, and realize that He does this for the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, the universe, and beyond. He does this for EVERYTHING, all at ONE time, ALL the time. Now you are just beginning to comprehend what infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent means.

Now again, even if he doesn’t believe in Him, it doesn’t matter for this argument. You are discussing the propriety of the 10 Commandments. He needs to understand properly the nature of God as not just a bigger version of ourselves. Once you begin to do this, the layout and set up of the 10 Commandments makes sense.

As God is the source of everything that we are, and the source of everything we have, it is right and just that we acknowledge Him. And He is jealous, not in human terms, but in God’s terms. He has given us absolutely EVERYTHING, without any reservation. All He rightly wants from us is to acknowledge Him, to show Him some of the love that He has bestowed upon us.

Once you get the fundamentals down, the discussion can go from there. Until you get his misconceptions straightened out, the arguments will be fruitless.

Great job packing a lot of relevant theology into a small amount of space, zz!

 

[mab23]

Thanks everyone - i wrote a response - what do you guys think - I borrowed some stuff

First off God gives man free will. so man can make false Gods if he wants, but God gave us Truth (10 commandments) and the ability to follow the truth. God didn’t make mindless machines that do what he wants. God made us and we have a choice to make - and he shows us the right choice. - so saying he wouldn’t have allowed so many religions isn’t an valid argument. Now if the first commandment is not followed the other 9 will be inevitably violated. You can look at the present day and age to see this or any time period for that matter

and the Graven images part, you have to read on - no graven images to bow down or worship! no Christian worships an image or statue - we worship God. yea we have pictures , statues for symbols , "remember for the first 1500 years a lot of people were illiterate and were taught the gospels through pictures and images. also used for veneration but never for worship

for the Lords name in vain -you must clearly see the first 4 commandments are for how we are to love God and the 6 others are how to Love/treat Man - clearly we shouldn’t use the Lords name in vain. Specifically in context it’s not about just using the name of God frivolously but using it to swear oaths and not keep that oath as well as using the Lords name in a derogatory manner.

Keeping the Sabbath day is part of the old covenant never the less - we do keep the Lords day holy by going to church and praying - sometimes people may have to work - but there is also Saturday and many mass times. Your statement of implying God’s exhaustion does not hold up. And is very arbitrary and your hypothetical scenario of the heart attack is not only unrealistic but you are twisting what keep the holy the Sabbath day means to be absurd.

We Honor our Father and Mother because they created us, and take care of us and teach us – and it would obviously change if our Parents don’t follow this system and are abusive.
– Adultery can lead to a series of bad situations psychologically and physically for both parties, especially if you make an oath. People will make mistakes obviously and the reward of hell isn’t derived from making mistakes it comes from turning away from God. Your understanding of how God works is very elementary and simply incorrect.
I won’t go into murder, lying or stealing its clear.

commandments 9 and 10

Objection one – makes females property - I does not do this. Desiring a person that is not just not yours but is also in an Oath to another person can lead to bad situations. This would thence force lead to breaking of other commandments. (Deceit, lying, stealing, break an oath taken in the Lords name) Of course as humans we have the ability to desire but suppressing our desires or rejecting them we learn self-control and become stronger spiritually. Your argument is a statement with no evidence behind it.

Objection two – convicted of thought crime – you only convicted if you relish in this type of behavior without trying to cease it, which in turn may very well lead to breaking of other commandments. Coveting other people’s property and spouses is not for the good of people. You use the word desire and its not appropriate – Covet is the appropriate word which by definition is to desire wrongfully , inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others

objection 3 – your statement is essentially blaming God for peoples desires and relieving responsibility. You then use an argument which as I see it equates acquiring goods being a part of the theory of evolution to desiring others property without the regards for the rights of others.

As an ex-Christian you should know we aren’t just given the 10 commandants. Told to just go follow this and we will be fine. There is much more than just the 10 commandments. We have the teachings of the Gospels. In these you can find a basis for our Moral duties and values. But when Jesus left he gave Peter the keys and made him the rock which his church was started – through apostolic succession almost 300 popes later we have the Catholic church that still teaches these principles.
It is clear that you do not understand fullness of God – you state him to be as some bigger version of ourselves – you predicate this in all your arguments. You know the average human body has 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms – and just saying God created this is giving the wrong impression. He is actively willing their existence. That’s just one human – lets now expand to the planet, solar system, galaxy , universe… so on – we just start to hit the iceberg of the infinite superiority.

 

[EricFilmer]

This person’s criticism of the Ten Commandments seem to stem from what he personally thinks is and is not “harmful.” Before anyone attempts to critique the Ten Commandments, then he should first understand what the commandments are designed to do, otherwise he will probably end up committing the straw man fallacy.

According to the Scriptures, the meaning of human life is to love God and one another (after all, the greatest of the commandments are to love God and neighbor). But exactly what does one do in order to properly love? People can easily be misguided in this regarded (for example, committing adultery “in the name of love”). Because God is the one who created us and determines the meaning of life, he likewise desires us to understand what it means to love according to him, as opposed to according to our ignorant whims and sinful desires. God provides such instructions (among other ways) in the Ten Commandments.

The first three commandments concern what it means to love God.
If we truly love God then we do not worship other Gods.
If we truly love God then we will honor his name and his holy day.

The seven remaining commandments deal with what it means to properly love one another.
If we truly love our parents then we will honor them in our words and deeds.
If we truly love our neighbors then we will not kill them, commit adultery with their spouses (or violate our own marriage vows), steal from them, bear false witness against them or covet what they have (i.e., coveting poisons our relationships with others and makes it harder for us to love ourselves and be content with our own circumstances, families, etc.).

So the question at hand is not how well do the Ten Commandments match this person’s opinions about what is and is not harmful, but how well they help people love God and one another in appropriate and moral ways. And because a violation of one of the Ten Commandments is a sin and goes against the very meaning of human existence, it is harmful, whether this person thinks so or not.

 

[mab23]

Always Glad to hear your perspective Eric - you always put it well :bounce:

 

[Gorgias]

Anyhoo, it is appropriate that God be jealous. Jealousy is sorrow that another person has a good thing.

No… that’s the definition of envy. See CCC 2539: “envy is … the sadness at the sight of another’s goods”.

Jealousy, on the other hand, refers to the emotion (!) resulting from the prospect of losing someone to another. In this context, we’re talking about the fact that, properly speaking, we ‘belong’ to God. God is jealous, then, that we might attempt to leave him for the illusions with which idols might entice us. God’s jealousy is based on the injustice of a person walking away from God’s love in the pursuit of a lesser good (or an outright evil). God isn’t big on that outcome…

 

[Rainaldo]

No… that’s the definition of envy. See CCC 2539: “envy is … the sadness at the sight of another’s goods”.

Jealousy, on the other hand, refers to the emotion (!) resulting from the prospect of losing someone to another. In this context, we’re talking about the fact that, properly speaking, we ‘belong’ to God. God is jealous, then, that we might attempt to leave him for the illusions with which idols might entice us. God’s jealousy is based on the injustice of a person walking away from God’s love in the pursuit of a lesser good (or an outright evil). God isn’t big on that outcome…

I keep getting the two mixed up, but I maintain that envy is sorrow that you lack another’s good and jealousy is sorrow that another has a good.

• When someone has a good thing that is also a mixed blessing, others say to him “I don’t envy you”. In other words, “I am not sorry that I lack the good you have”.
• Also, there is something called “class envy” that comes up in the news these days: it is sorrow that the 99% supposedly feel because they do not have the goods the 1% has. Hence envy differs from jealousy in that envy wishes one had the good.
• Teenagers often exclaim “I’m so jealous!” as a sarcastic commentary on a friend’s possession of a good thing, but there is no sense of wishing one had that good oneself.
• Finally, a jealous husband is jealous not of his wife, but of the other man; in extreme cases he may be tempted to harm or even murder not only the other man, but his wife also, thus ironically depriving himself of the good thing he presumably desires (“If I can’t have you, no one will”); thus jealousy does not necessarily entail a wish to possess the good.

Therefore envy is the sorrow that you ***don’t ***have a good that someone else has; jealousy then must be sorrow that someone else ***has ***a good.

 

[Gorgias]

• When someone has a good thing that is also a mixed blessing, others say to him “I don’t envy you”. In other words, “I am not sorry that I lack the good you have”.
• Also, there is something called “class envy” that comes up in the news these days: it is sorrow that the 99% supposedly feel because they do not have the goods the 1% has. Hence envy differs from jealousy in that envy wishes one had the good.

Right: envy looks at another’s possession and wishes it for themselves.

Teenagers often exclaim “I’m so jealous!” as a sarcastic commentary on a friend’s possession of a good thing, but there is no sense of wishing one had that good oneself.

And we’re positing that teenagers’ use of language is normative, now? That they use words correctly all the time?

Finally, a jealous husband is jealous not of his wife, but of the other man; in extreme cases he may be tempted to harm or even murder not only the other man, but his wife also, thus ironically depriving himself of the good thing he presumably desires (“If I can’t have you, no one will”); thus jealousy does not necessarily entail a wish to possess the good.

I would argue that he’s envious of what the other man has – namely, his wife’s attention and affection! The wish to deprive another of a good that s/he’s entitled to is the height of envy, and a ‘fruit’ of that sin! But, again, properly speaking, while envy is outward-looking (‘what does he have that I don’t?’), jealousy is inward-looking (‘what is it that I’m losing?’). The etymological root of the word jealousy is the word zeal…!

Therefore envy is the sorrow that you ***don’t ***have a good that someone else has; jealousy then must be sorrow that someone else ***has ***a good.

I would argue that both of your examples flow from envy: I don’t have something that someone else has. Jealousy, though, speaks to my own interior disposition about something that I do have…

 

[Rainaldo]

And we’re positing that teenagers’ use of language is normative, now? That they use words correctly all the time?

Oh WHAT-evurrr [eyeroll]

 

[EricFilmer]

Always Glad to hear your perspective Eric - you always put it well :bounce:

Thanks, and I’m always glad to help