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DylanO
Guest
What are some good sources for defending the 7 Deuterocanonical Books?
- Status
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Harmony1988
Guest
The Church instituted the Bible, under the guidance of either Pope Damasus or Siricus. What makes Martin Luther or anyone else think that the 7 books are not to be included, when 1500 years of theologians, bishops and other religious have affirmed it’s authenticity?
If the 7 books are questionable, so is the rest of the Bible.
Where in the Bible does it say what the criterion is for questionable books? If they are protestant, tell them ‘sola scriptura’ to prove the 7 deuterocanonicals are not part of the Bible.
How can one use scripture from books selected and affirmed by the Church to prove that the 7 books are not authentic, which were also affirmed authentic by the church?
If the 7 books are questionable, so is the rest of the Bible.
Where in the Bible does it say what the criterion is for questionable books? If they are protestant, tell them ‘sola scriptura’ to prove the 7 deuterocanonicals are not part of the Bible.
How can one use scripture from books selected and affirmed by the Church to prove that the 7 books are not authentic, which were also affirmed authentic by the church?
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inthecloud
Guest
There are lost of thread on the subject why not the mods just unite them? I gets tiring to debate the same thing over and over again.
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Ignatius
Guest
The Deuterocanonical Books were written hundreds of years before Christ and were a part of the Bible from that time on.
Also, the version Sacred Scriptures most used in the near east at the time of Christ was the Septuagent or LXX, which included the Deuterocanonical Books. It has been used by the Church ever since Jesus founded it. They were even in all Protestant Bibles printed clear up until the first third of the 19th century. Why would one want to remove them? A more apt question would be, Why did the Protestants remove books from the Bible 19 centuries after Christ?
In fact, the Jewish celebration of Hanukkah, also known as the Festival of Lights, and Feast of the Maccabees, commemorates the rededication of the Temple of Jerusalem by Judas Maccabee in 165 BC as recounted in the Book of Maccabees.
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Harmony1988
Guest
Ahh, I had forgotten about this, good you explained it.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Knowledge of history is important here to understand what books were and were not accepted. In the Councils of Hippo and Carthage, the Church accepted the Alexandrian (Greek) canon. The Greek Canon was identified during the Old Testament, when the Jews were still guided by the Holy Spirit. (Before anyone questions this, remember the phrase in the Nicene Creed where we say in reference to the Holy Spirit, "He has spoken through the prophets". )
The Council of Alexandria was between the years 250 and 125 BC. It is also called the Greek Canon because it accepted those books written in Hebrew and Greek. Those who identified these books were a collection of 6 Rabbis from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Thus the term Septuagint’. Those written in Greek were by Jews scattered during the diaspora who did not return to Jerusalem.
The Council of Hippo was circa 395AD ± and the new Testament was in effect and the Church of Jesus, (Catholic Church) was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. With Christianity growing, and all New Testament books being written in Greek, the Jews at the Council of Jamnia (circa 94 or 95 AD) identified what they call the Hebrew Canon, accepting only those books written in Hebrew. Remember, they were no longer under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There was no question in the Church about the books being accepted until after the Protestant reformation, after 1500 years of Catholic Church History as to whether those books written in Greek were Canonical or not.
Because some of the books, Maccabees to be specific supported the doctrine of purgatory, it as well as all others written in Greek were rejected. The main reason for this was because it contradicted Luther’s teaching on "Justification by faith alone. This word was added to the Protestant version, and is not in any valid Catholic translation. i hope this gives some understanding. It should, particularly when viewed in its historical context.
Deacon Ed B
The Council of Alexandria was between the years 250 and 125 BC. It is also called the Greek Canon because it accepted those books written in Hebrew and Greek. Those who identified these books were a collection of 6 Rabbis from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Thus the term Septuagint’. Those written in Greek were by Jews scattered during the diaspora who did not return to Jerusalem.
The Council of Hippo was circa 395AD ± and the new Testament was in effect and the Church of Jesus, (Catholic Church) was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. With Christianity growing, and all New Testament books being written in Greek, the Jews at the Council of Jamnia (circa 94 or 95 AD) identified what they call the Hebrew Canon, accepting only those books written in Hebrew. Remember, they were no longer under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There was no question in the Church about the books being accepted until after the Protestant reformation, after 1500 years of Catholic Church History as to whether those books written in Greek were Canonical or not.
Because some of the books, Maccabees to be specific supported the doctrine of purgatory, it as well as all others written in Greek were rejected. The main reason for this was because it contradicted Luther’s teaching on "Justification by faith alone. This word was added to the Protestant version, and is not in any valid Catholic translation. i hope this gives some understanding. It should, particularly when viewed in its historical context.
Deacon Ed B
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rush176
Guest
I also read recently that Luther originally rejected four books of the NT (Hebrews was one though I don’t recall the rest) and removed them from his edited version of the Bible. Hebrews supported/quoted Maccabees and since, as Deacon Ed said, Maccabees supported the doctrine of purgatory Hebrews needed to be cut also. Cooler head prevailed among the reformers and the NT was not “cleansed”
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NDfan
Guest
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rush176
Guest
2 Mac. 12:42-46 (NAB)
42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
(footnote from NAB) This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (2 Macc 12:42) and sacrifices (2 Macc 12:43) for the dead are efficacious. The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Macc 7:9, 14, 23, 36). That is, he believed that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause. Thus, they could share in the resurrection. His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
(footnote from NAB) This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (2 Macc 12:42) and sacrifices (2 Macc 12:43) for the dead are efficacious. The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Macc 7:9, 14, 23, 36). That is, he believed that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God’s cause. Thus, they could share in the resurrection. His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
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PeVee
Guest
2 Machabees 12:46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
The whole concept of praying for the dead.
The whole concept of praying for the dead.
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Danno2281
Guest
There is much dissension among Protestants over the merit of these books, and they are nearly always excluded from the canon, but it is intesesting to note that they were included in the King James bible, not in a separate section, but as a part of the body. In fact, if one could acquire a really old KJV, he would find that the pages do not run successively because the pagination of the original was kept even after the deuterocanonicals had been removed.
The usual reason given for their non-acceptance is that they were not accepted into the Jewish canon, but the “canon” of which they speak was formulated at Jamnia (Jebna) ca. 90 AD, by which time our Protestant brothers must admit that the Jews no longer had the authority speak about what was or was not inspired.
There are a great many allusions to these books throughout the N.T., but direct references are not so easy to come by. The best reason is the most honest: no one has any valid reason to accept any book of scripture as inspired except that the living Christ has said that it is. Rome has spoken; the case is closed.
The usual reason given for their non-acceptance is that they were not accepted into the Jewish canon, but the “canon” of which they speak was formulated at Jamnia (Jebna) ca. 90 AD, by which time our Protestant brothers must admit that the Jews no longer had the authority speak about what was or was not inspired.
There are a great many allusions to these books throughout the N.T., but direct references are not so easy to come by. The best reason is the most honest: no one has any valid reason to accept any book of scripture as inspired except that the living Christ has said that it is. Rome has spoken; the case is closed.
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inthecloud
Guest
The whole issue of prayers for the dead only makes sense if:
- Hell is not eternal as many Jews believe historically and Christian universalists belive now. And souls can be released from it by prayer.
- There is something like CC. Purgatory or the EO stations.
Since the Jews believed and believe now in prayers for the dead, is for me clear that the first Christians believed that also. Hence Purgatory.
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danalad
Guest
When Jesus quoted and read from the scriptures; these books were in it. If these 7 books were good enough for him, they’re good enough for me!
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rush176
Guest
Amen Brutha!!
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Danno2281
Guest
The problem is that proving that each of these books was in scriptures thar Jesus used is most difficult. Some were written (insofar as we can determine) only in Greek. They are found in the Septuagint, the translation into Greek used by the Jews in the diaspora (outside of the Holy Land), and this version was quoted in the N.T. frequently. But to say that Jesus read from these books is impossible to prove. That, of course, does not make them any less inspired. He did not read the N.T. writings either. The only way in which we know that books are inspired is that the living Christ, the Church, has told us definitively that they are.
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disciple68
Guest
Can some one plz show me some examples of NT scripyue alluding to the Deuterocanonical Books Thanx 
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Danno2281
Guest
In Hebrews 11, 35 it reads, “Others were tortured, refusing to accept release that they might find a better resurrection.” Only in 2 Macc 7 is such a scenario found.Can some one plz show me some examples of NT scripyue alluding to the Deuterocanonical Books Thanx
An additional note: although Palestinian Jewry failed to accept the deuterocanonicals, it appears that African and European/Eurasian Jewry continued to.
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Canto
Guest
These 2 sites are full of cross references between the Deutorcanon and New T as it the orignal 1966 Jerusalem Bible
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
i.e.
Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach (aka Ecclesiasticus) 40:15.
And the Book of Wisom says…
Wisdom Ch2
12 Let us, therefore, lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life.
13 He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God.
14 He is become a censurer of our thoughts.
15 He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, and his ways are very different.
16 We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father.
17 **Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be.
18 For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies.
19 Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness, and try his patience.**
20 Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words.
**21 These things they thought, and were deceived: for their own malice blinded them.
22 And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls.**
**23 For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him.
24 But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world:
25 And they follow him that are of his side.**
Wisdom 3
7 The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds.
8 They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
**9 They that trust in him shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love, shall rest in him: for grace and peace are to his elect.**10
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
i.e.
Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach (aka Ecclesiasticus) 40:15.
And the Book of Wisom says…
Wisdom Ch2
12 Let us, therefore, lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life.
13 He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God.
14 He is become a censurer of our thoughts.
15 He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, and his ways are very different.
16 We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father.
17 **Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be.
18 For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies.
19 Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness, and try his patience.**
20 Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words.
**21 These things they thought, and were deceived: for their own malice blinded them.
22 And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls.**
**23 For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him.
24 But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world:
25 And they follow him that are of his side.**
Wisdom 3
7 The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds.
8 They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
**9 They that trust in him shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love, shall rest in him: for grace and peace are to his elect.**10
V
veritashunter
Guest
Please click on this link to read the scriptures from the New Testament referencing the events found only in the Deuterocanonical Books of the Old Testament.
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/767812/posts
The oldest existing Hebrew texts are the Dead Sea Scrolls with various dates of authorship written from 250 BC to 65 AD (at least 13 years before the Jewish Council of Jamnia). Written in Hebrew they include the books of the Catholic Bible proving that their use/quotes by Jesus and his apostles weren’t only sourced from the Greek but also in the Hebrew canon up to that time. They weren’t removed from the Jewish canon until later.
The word Deuterocanonical means “belonging to the second canon”. The term was coined by a Jewish scholar convert to Christianity who was involved in translating the Greek and Hebrew Old Testament into Latin. “Second Canon” refers to all Old Testament books other than the The Law of Moses/Torah/Pentateuch (Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Numbers, Deutronomy) meaning that the Torah (or First Canon) guides us in understanding all other Jewish scripture.
The Guetenberg Bible (the 1st book produced on the printing press) & The 1611 King James (the original) includes these books though the latter sets them between the Protestant New and Old Testaments, respectively.
The Catholic Church didn’t add these books…Luther removed them. Luther initially also wanted to remove Jude, Titus, 2nd Peter, Hebrews, & James. He removed the 7+ Old Testament Books in his German translation.
By what authority were these books removed since Luther had left the Church as he was excommunicated? The answer is NONE! His action involved personal interpretation and self leadership. 2 PT 1:19-21 states personal interpretation of Scripture is not permitted. 2 PT 3:15-18 explains why.
When we ask “what is the pillar and foundation of all truth” Scripture doesn’t state it is us as individuals or even scripture itself…it says “Know this first of all,…the pillar and foundation of all truth is the Church” (1 TM 3:15). It does not endow us with a right to lead ourselves because of a simple truth…The Church did not come from the Bible…rather, the Bible came from the Church. There was a Church before there was a Bible…and even without a Bible the Church still exists as believers united into the embodiment of Christ on earth. We have an authoritative Church even if we don’t have a Bible because the Church (the bride of Christ) is the foundation of all truth (1 TM 3:15). During parts of the 1st century the New Testament Gospels were not yet spoken to human ears or set to paper yet the Church existed.
Several hundred NT references make direct comparisons to what some call the “Apocrypha”. In such we see Sacred Scripture testifying to the validity of Sacred Scripture.
**The website listed above shows a simple textual comparison quote by quote/passage by passage. If these aren’t what the New Testament is referring to merely locate in the Protestant Old Testament the actual comparitives that should be attributed to these quotes. We cannot because they’re absent/missing. **
Also consider that Luther chose a version of the OT that wasn’t even determined as canon until the Jewish Council of Jamnia (50 years after the resurrection). At the moment of Christ’s death Judaism lost all authority over Scripture.This is why the veil was torn in the Old Temple at the moment of Christ’s death on the cross and the Great Temple was later destroyed in 70 AD because the Church (the embodiment of Christ on earth) is the New Temple.
Many faithful fundamentalists don’t understand what the Temple represented spiritually to the Jews. It was the model of the entire universe and totality of Creation as the infinite dwelling place of the Creator. With the destruction of the temple we see the demise of the Old Church. We see that Christ is the universe and all Creation dwells within He who is God. He created it and only in Himself (and his body) is it realized as He is the True Great Temple.
So, understanding that, why would anyone choose to authoritatively follow those who denied Christ as Divine, Christ as the Son of God, the existence of Christ’s kingdom on earth, the existence & subsistence of the universe within the person of Christ, the eternal sacrifice of God incarnate for their salvation & the resurrection? If they got all of that wrong how can Protestantism look toward them as possessing the divine revelation of canon or any earthly authority decades after Christ (the Word made Flesh) ressurected?
The reason for the Council of Jamnia was that the sect of “The Way”/Christians were increasingly Greek-speakers. Many spoke Greek because it was the language of literature, science, & trade throughout the world. “The Way” were gaining followers from Judaism & following unique Christian practices in opposition to Jewish teachings.
Judaism sought to purge its ranks of Christians and any related Greek influence. Since the Greek Septuagint contained these OT books (as do the Dead Sea Scrolls) which offer testimony for certain disputed Christian doctrines and Greek/Hellenist Jews were looked upon as somewhat impure the books were removed to “purify” Judaism while purging it of any Christianized Jewish influence. Simply put, Christians, their beliefs, and new Traditions such as the Eucharist were a threat to the existing Jewish leadership/power structure.
Luther chose to follow the teachings of the scribes & high priests instead of the bride of Christ. All of these books (including the referenced NT books) contained text contradicting Luther’s own beliefs. Luther misplaced his faith and trusted in the psuedo-authority of those whom Christ replaced.
Yours in Christ,
Veritashunter
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/767812/posts
The oldest existing Hebrew texts are the Dead Sea Scrolls with various dates of authorship written from 250 BC to 65 AD (at least 13 years before the Jewish Council of Jamnia). Written in Hebrew they include the books of the Catholic Bible proving that their use/quotes by Jesus and his apostles weren’t only sourced from the Greek but also in the Hebrew canon up to that time. They weren’t removed from the Jewish canon until later.
The word Deuterocanonical means “belonging to the second canon”. The term was coined by a Jewish scholar convert to Christianity who was involved in translating the Greek and Hebrew Old Testament into Latin. “Second Canon” refers to all Old Testament books other than the The Law of Moses/Torah/Pentateuch (Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Numbers, Deutronomy) meaning that the Torah (or First Canon) guides us in understanding all other Jewish scripture.
The Guetenberg Bible (the 1st book produced on the printing press) & The 1611 King James (the original) includes these books though the latter sets them between the Protestant New and Old Testaments, respectively.
The Catholic Church didn’t add these books…Luther removed them. Luther initially also wanted to remove Jude, Titus, 2nd Peter, Hebrews, & James. He removed the 7+ Old Testament Books in his German translation.
By what authority were these books removed since Luther had left the Church as he was excommunicated? The answer is NONE! His action involved personal interpretation and self leadership. 2 PT 1:19-21 states personal interpretation of Scripture is not permitted. 2 PT 3:15-18 explains why.
When we ask “what is the pillar and foundation of all truth” Scripture doesn’t state it is us as individuals or even scripture itself…it says “Know this first of all,…the pillar and foundation of all truth is the Church” (1 TM 3:15). It does not endow us with a right to lead ourselves because of a simple truth…The Church did not come from the Bible…rather, the Bible came from the Church. There was a Church before there was a Bible…and even without a Bible the Church still exists as believers united into the embodiment of Christ on earth. We have an authoritative Church even if we don’t have a Bible because the Church (the bride of Christ) is the foundation of all truth (1 TM 3:15). During parts of the 1st century the New Testament Gospels were not yet spoken to human ears or set to paper yet the Church existed.
Several hundred NT references make direct comparisons to what some call the “Apocrypha”. In such we see Sacred Scripture testifying to the validity of Sacred Scripture.
**The website listed above shows a simple textual comparison quote by quote/passage by passage. If these aren’t what the New Testament is referring to merely locate in the Protestant Old Testament the actual comparitives that should be attributed to these quotes. We cannot because they’re absent/missing. **
Also consider that Luther chose a version of the OT that wasn’t even determined as canon until the Jewish Council of Jamnia (50 years after the resurrection). At the moment of Christ’s death Judaism lost all authority over Scripture.This is why the veil was torn in the Old Temple at the moment of Christ’s death on the cross and the Great Temple was later destroyed in 70 AD because the Church (the embodiment of Christ on earth) is the New Temple.
Many faithful fundamentalists don’t understand what the Temple represented spiritually to the Jews. It was the model of the entire universe and totality of Creation as the infinite dwelling place of the Creator. With the destruction of the temple we see the demise of the Old Church. We see that Christ is the universe and all Creation dwells within He who is God. He created it and only in Himself (and his body) is it realized as He is the True Great Temple.
So, understanding that, why would anyone choose to authoritatively follow those who denied Christ as Divine, Christ as the Son of God, the existence of Christ’s kingdom on earth, the existence & subsistence of the universe within the person of Christ, the eternal sacrifice of God incarnate for their salvation & the resurrection? If they got all of that wrong how can Protestantism look toward them as possessing the divine revelation of canon or any earthly authority decades after Christ (the Word made Flesh) ressurected?
The reason for the Council of Jamnia was that the sect of “The Way”/Christians were increasingly Greek-speakers. Many spoke Greek because it was the language of literature, science, & trade throughout the world. “The Way” were gaining followers from Judaism & following unique Christian practices in opposition to Jewish teachings.
Judaism sought to purge its ranks of Christians and any related Greek influence. Since the Greek Septuagint contained these OT books (as do the Dead Sea Scrolls) which offer testimony for certain disputed Christian doctrines and Greek/Hellenist Jews were looked upon as somewhat impure the books were removed to “purify” Judaism while purging it of any Christianized Jewish influence. Simply put, Christians, their beliefs, and new Traditions such as the Eucharist were a threat to the existing Jewish leadership/power structure.
Luther chose to follow the teachings of the scribes & high priests instead of the bride of Christ. All of these books (including the referenced NT books) contained text contradicting Luther’s own beliefs. Luther misplaced his faith and trusted in the psuedo-authority of those whom Christ replaced.
Yours in Christ,
Veritashunter
- Status