Defending the Church's History

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I like to compare the ‘history’ of the Church to an old friend of mine. We try to be loyal and loving friends. We realized a long time ago that we are not perfect so it has become easy to forgive each other. We have learned over the years our friendship is a precious gift that has the character of courage and strength to keep it always fresh and new. We are growing old together in a ‘spirit of love’ which keeps our relationship alive.

Peace ~
Isabus
 
Nobody denies that terrible things were done within the Church in the past (partly because judicial punishment was much harsher in all walks of life). However in the most part those acts were political opportunism rather than ‘religious’.

For example: it is estimated that about 3/4 of the catholic population of Ireland were killed during the Cromwellian Plantations (in the 1600s) & most of the rest were forced to move West to Connacht and we had the Penal Laws (priests killed, massgoers killed, catholic couldn’t vote or own land etc.) Offically this was because we were ‘Popish’. In reality if was because a) English Lords wanted the land & b) Britain was afraid that Spain/France would use Ireland as a launching pad to attack England.
 
Alec:

“And he is wrong. Profoundly wrong. I am teaching heresy. Look me in the eye and tell me that I should be killed for that.”

I shudder to think of that day when you shall look the Lord in the eye and answer for your proudly being heretical. All I can do is pray for you. And you, for your part, I hope are praying that you are correct in believing there is no hell. Unfortunately, I fear that you are wrong on that one.

1] But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in DESTRUCTIVE HERESIES, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2] And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
3] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.
4]For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;
5] if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6] if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomor’rah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly;
7] and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked
8] (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds),
9] then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
10] and ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO indulge in the lust of defiling passion and DESPISE AUTHORITY. Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones,
11] whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a reviling judgment upon them before the Lord.
12] But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them,
13] suffering wrong for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their dissipation, carousing with you.
14] They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
15] Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Be’or, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
16] but was rebuked for his own transgression; a dumb *** spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17] These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved.
18] For, UTTERING LOUD BOASTS OF FOLLY, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error.
19] They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved.
20] For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21] For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22] It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire. 2 Pt 2
 
I’ve had a personal relationship with Jesus for over thirty years. He has spoken to my heart and mind many times. He tells me that I should always be kind and gentle to everyone. It’s not always easy but I try my best.

God is just, holy, and merciful. I don’t believe God wants me to sit in judgement of other people. God is the judge.

I think Jesus likes it when I believe in God for people who don’t believe in God. I think it tickles his heart. : - )

Oh what joy I find in loving Jesus!!!

Peace ~
Isabus
 
It is my understanding that the church can only condem IDEAS, IT does not have the power to the condem PEOPLE. Condemming people, my friends, has always been with the power of the STATE.
None of us are truly Catholic, because Catholism is the doctrine of IDEAS (our deposit of faith), even though we cant always live up to them. We may however STRIVE to be CATHOLIC. The truth is here. It is unchangable, despite what our beliefs ABOUT the truth may be. I beleive the CATHOLIC church has the fullness of truth. Catholism is true despite me not beleiving it to be true, or my inability to live these truths through my actions.
 
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Ter:
Nobody denies that terrible things were done within the Church in the past (partly because judicial punishment was much harsher in all walks of life). However in the most part those acts were political opportunism rather than ‘religious’.

For example: it is estimated that about 3/4 of the catholic population of Ireland were killed during the Cromwellian Plantations (in the 1600s) & most of the rest were forced to move West to Connacht and we had the Penal Laws (priests killed, massgoers killed, catholic couldn’t vote or own land etc.) Offically this was because we were ‘Popish’. In reality if was because a) English Lords wanted the land & b) Britain was afraid that Spain/France would use Ireland as a launching pad to attack England.

I wonder what the real figures are - after seeing very inflated figures for Catholics killed under Elizabeth, one learns to be healthily sceptical 🙂

No Protestants could vote in England, who did not satisfy certain socio-economic tests; so denying the vote to Catholics would hardly count as particularly unfair. No Protestant women could vote at that time. Women had no vote in general elections until 1918.

And in 1571 or so, there had been a “Popish plot” - the Ridolfi Plot. In 1569, there was the Northern Rising; the Bull of Pius V attempting to depose Elizabeth in 1570; the Babington Plot against Queen Elizabeth in 1586; the Spanish Armada in 1588; and a stream of pamphlets by certain disloyal Jesuits such as Father Robert Persons, calling for Elizabeth to be dethroned, and for Philip II to replace her - which would have made Spain even mightier than it was already.

As well as Catholic plotting in Scotland: James VI & I had good reasons to fear treason, and to strengthen the English Protestant Church; his experience and that of Elizabeth I affected their policies, inevitably. And at this time, policy depended as much on the monarch as on the Parliaments. After 1688, Parliament became more important than the monarch.

So it is unsurprising that Catholics came to be regarded as traitors - some were, and deserved all they got. Especially since kingship was sacred, and so were monarchs.

The policies of Elizabeth and James VI & I are entirely intelligible, given their own experiences and the history of the English & Scottish Reformations.

As well as persecution of Protestants on the continent. Catholic and Protestant rulers alike used espionage and murder as instruments of politics, both were ready to stir up rebellion in the lands ruled by their enemies; and the resulting insecurity in England (and Scotland) has to be taken into account; Britain, in both parts, was a Protestant island amid a host of potential enemies, so it had to play them off against each other, and control its own potentially disloyal population.

This goes a long way to explain English atrocities in Ireland, and attempts to subdue the O’Neills and Fitzgeralds, for example; Ireland was very hard tto control, and was well-placed to be a backdoor to the British mainland.

Besides, almost no state at that time had much room for populations which differed in religion from the majority - religion and politics were almost everywhere identified. Which is why loyalty to the Elizabethan Settlement was so important in England; and why Louis XIV in 1685 persecuted the Protestants into becoming Catholics; an absolutist monarchy such as France had to be sure of the loyalty of its subjects; so they had to be Catholics. ##
 
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SteveT:
Alec:

“And he is wrong. Profoundly wrong. I am teaching heresy. Look me in the eye and tell me that I should be killed for that.”

I shudder to think of that day when you shall look the Lord in the eye and answer for your proudly being heretical. All I can do is pray for you. And you, for your part, I hope are praying that you are correct in believing there is no hell. Unfortunately, I fear that you are wrong on that one.
Well, I am touched by your concern for my soul but unmoved by your long biblical quotation. Given the concern that you have shown, I am reluctant to point out that quotations such as those carry no consequence as far as I am concerned. Quotations from holy books are used, more often than not, to suppress other’s opinions and to dictate what they should believe. They are tools of intellectual manipulation. I am convinced by logical argument and by evidence, not by assertion supported by holy writ.

As for looking the Lord in the eye, if there is a Lord, my belief is that a Being capable of creating a universe as vast and majestic as we have discovered that it is, would not stoop to punish sentient beings for failing to believe in His existence, especially since the evidence for his existence is so poor. When I look around at the people of good will, of honest endeavour and of charity to their fellow beings who share my view, I am deeply impressed by their humanity and love for others and I am convinced that these things matter more than personal faith or adherence to bell, book and candle. I do not expect to have to look some infinite Being in the eye but if I have to, I do not shrink from it.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm
 
I’m upset by the fact that the topic under discussion is supposed to be “Defending the Church’s History” NOT “Having to Defend Oneself from Attack”. Friends, this is how wars start. People begin to take it personal and pretty soon feelings get hurt. It makes me very sad to think we are repeating history within this thread. What does this tell me? Anger and hated continues to outlive compassion and love for each other. We don’t have to pertinaciously reject or doubt another person’s faith or their reason for believing whatever they wish to believe in. All we have to do is respect each other and accept each other because we care about the person. We care about human life! This is what I was taught since childhood by Catholic parents whom I cherished and loved.

Kindness and Peace go hand in hand ~
Isabus
 
[

Well, I am touched by your concern for my soul but unmoved

hecd2http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif%between%](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=8140)

ah ha!. So you admit to having a soul! And you admit to a day when your will look GOD in the eyes!. I would call this progress. However, the only reason your soul is unmoved is because you refuse to open your eyes.:nope:

If Church history is Christ’s revelation throughout the fullness of time, I dont think there is a need to Defend It. Just let it stand.

During Jesus’ trial, even Pontious Pilate asked, “What is truth?” Truth was standing right in front of him… Doh!
 
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RMP:
During Jesus’ trial, even Pontious Pilate asked, “What is truth?” Truth was standing right in front of him… Doh!
Think how different things would be if he had asked “Where is truth?” instead.
 
RMP said:
ah ha!. So you admit to having a soul! And you admit to a day when your will look GOD in the eyes!. I would call this progress. However, the only reason your soul is unmoved is because you refuse to open your eyes.:nope:
Since you choose to misinterpret what I said, I can only repeat it:

'Quotations from holy books are used, more often than not, to suppress other’s opinions and to dictate what they should believe. They are tools of intellectual manipulation. I am convinced by logical argument and by evidence, not by assertion supported by holy writ.

As for looking the Lord in the eye, if there is a Lord, my belief is that a Being capable of creating a universe as vast and majestic as we have discovered that it is, would not stoop to punish sentient beings for failing to believe in His existence, especially since the evidence for his existence is so poor. When I look around at the people of good will, of honest endeavour and of charity to their fellow beings who share my view, I am deeply impressed by their humanity and love for others and I am convinced that these things matter more than personal faith or adherence to bell, book and candle. I do not expect to have to look some infinite Being in the eye but if I have to, I do not shrink from it.’

Do try to understand what I’ve written.

Alec
homepage.ntlworld.com/macandrew/Grenada_disaster/Grenada_disaster.htm
 
Chris Jacobsen:
There are enough bad Catholics doing bad things in 2004, with having to go back in history to find bad Catholics.

We have bad Catholics leading the fight to hack innocent babies to death, or leading the fight to jab holes in babies heads and suck their brains out.

We have Catholics who have their children hacked up in pieces. Catholics who hack babies up in pieces. And Catholics who believe that those who attack babies should get extra government protection.

We have Catholics who believe that an innocent baby should be executed without trial, because his father raped his mother. And that the death should be death by dismemberment. In the mean time, the guilty father gets either a light sentence or no sentence at all.

We have Catholics who believe that people should be killed the moment they are conceived to further the cause of medical research.

We have Catholics who try to destroy the lives of their children by getting divorced and remarried, divorced and remarried, divorced and remarried.

We have Catholics who use their spouses for their own selfish pleasure by using contraceptives.

We have Catholics who decide for themselves what is right and wrong. These follow in the footsteps of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Nero, and Satan.

Yes, there is plenty of material in 2004. One does not need to go back in history to find evil and evildoers in the Church.

Jesus had an answer as to why there is evil and evil people in the Church. He said a farmer planted a field of wheat. Then an enemy came and planted weeds in the field. The farmer left the weeds in the field until harvest time. He did this so that the wheat would not be pulled up and destroyed along with the weeds.
God bless you, brother! That was spot on!
Paul
 
As for looking the Lord in the eye, if there is a Lord, my belief is
Excellent, So you are an agnostic… not an aethiest. Progress again.
'Quotations from holy books are used, more often than not, to suppress other’s opinions and to dictate what they should believe. They are tools of intellectual manipulation. I am convinced by logical argument and by evidence, not by assertion supported by holy writ.
If you will notice from most of my posts, I seldem use scripture at all. I think you are partly right. I cannot use a souce of truth that you fail to see any truth in. But by the same standard you would not be able to use your sources either. Our communication has to start with a premise we can both believe in or it goes nowhere. WHAT DO you suggest?
 
would not stoop to punish sentient beings for failing to believe in His existence, especially since the evidence for his existence is so poor
If you created a universe and nobody believed you did, wouldnt you be UPSET TOO?
How much more evidence do we need. YOU been outside lately?
 
When I look around at the people of good will, of honest endeavour and of charity to their fellow beings who share my view, I am deeply impressed by their humanity and love for others and I am convinced that these things matter more than personal faith or adherence to bell, book and candle.
True, because the truth of GOD is already written in your heart. People know good from Bad. They just arrent good about knowing the difference about ALL good and ALL BAD. Thats why we need the church, the books, the candles and the other stuff.
I do not expect to have to look some infinite Being in the eye but if I have to, I do not shrink from it
Unfortunately, I believe you will shrink from it.

Truth does exist outside the Catholic church, only in bits, pieces and fragments. The church gathers these pieces and fragments all together and presents them back to us, infallably. This is why we say the Church has Fullness of truth.
 
Triumph is an entertaining work of fiction. I’m horrified that there are Catholic colleges that use it as a church history textbook. I shouldn’t be surprised, I suppose, but I am. Catholics are supposed to have more sense.

Crocker thinks that the Sack of Constantinople should be a feast-day of the Church. He said so in an interview printed in Crisis a couple of years ago. This is more than “breezy,” and it is certainly not a shining example of “good sense” or “decency.” His work is not history. It is propaganda, pure and simple. It’s marginally better than Carroll’s Constantine’s Sword, if only because it’s much better written! It is of course far more orthodox, but that counts against it in my view. Twisting history in the service of error is sinful, but twisting it in the service of truth is blasphemy.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
I love how you post ,IN CHRIST, on defending the church when you are so defiant against it. After 2000 years of all this terrible history, the Catholic church still stands united. After 400 years, the protestant church stands undeniably DIVIDED. Great job! What a triumph! So I ask you, whos blinded?
 
Contarini said:
Triumph is an entertaining work of fiction. I’m horrified that there are Catholic colleges that use it as a church history textbook. I shouldn’t be surprised, I suppose, but I am. Catholics are supposed to have more sense.

Crocker thinks that the Sack of Constantinople should be a feast-day of the Church. He said so in an interview printed in Crisis a couple of years ago. This is more than “breezy,” and it is certainly not a shining example of “good sense” or “decency.” His work is not history. It is propaganda, pure and simple. It’s marginally better than Carroll’s Constantine’s Sword, if only because it’s much better written! It is of course far more orthodox, but that counts against it in my view. Twisting history in the service of error is sinful, but twisting it in the service of truth is blasphemy.

In Christ,

Edwin

A review in “Crisis” Magazine said this, in part:​

“Catholics need to know their own story but balk at opening those multi-volume Church histories by Daniel Rops or Philip Hughes. H.W. Crocker III has written a book that solves the problem. I am still scratching my head over how he did it, but in Triumph he has told 2,000 years of Catholic history in fewer than 500 highly readable pages.”

Father Hughes’ histories of the CC are respectively one volume and three volumes in length.

Daniel Rops is, admittedly, 12 volumes in length - 5,000 pages, or more.

Maybe I’m being intolerant, but surely, if something is worth reading, people will take the trouble to read it; even if it is 12 volumes long. If something is deemed sufficiently important, it gets done, I think ##
 
HECD2

It is always entertaining listening to your various reasonings, not because some of your critisims of the Church are not right relatively speaking to what you think, but simply that you think that they have to conform to any standard other than the standard they make for themselves assuming there is no objective truth.

Here are a couple of reasons, If there is no objective truth as have been delivered to us from God, then there is no moral law of right or wrong because unless we know what is right or wrong according to a creator, who must by defination advise us of right and wrong, then as the circle goes, there is no objective right or wrong

If we assume that a creator has spoken to us through some religeon then effectively it can only be one religeon because we know that so many religeons have such diverse and opposite views. It is encumbent upon a creator that if he wants us to follow rules he must ensure that we know those rules.

This leads us to morality because you talk about love of each other, fellow man etc, well honestly if there is no creator to inform us assuredly of the “rules” then there are no rules other than what we as individuals and society decide to implement at one time or another.

We must therefor accept that we are animals and that any one who promtoes an athiestic type view of the world who chooses to teach love etc is simply an individual who is too scared of the turth of their belief to live out the consequences of their belief.

Why should I teach my children about honesty etc. I would be better to teach my children that we as a family should be honest to each other for eg, but do whatever it takes to steal, kill, pillage etc from others to our best advantage. This way I am more likely to ensure the survival of my family (fittest) (There being no objective right and wrong means there can be no GUILT for doing such things)

You have no right to condemn murders, rapists theifs etc, because in reality if we are animals there is nothing wrong with it and in fact we should do whatever it takes to ensure our survival or give us an edge over our rivals.

IF God does not exist, that is some form of creator to judge our life in terms of his rules then we are FOOLS to follow any moral law, becasue it is disadvantages us against those who do not follow or believe the same laws as ourselves.

Its got me beat why you athiest types live such a life of fear, in fact your fear is even greater than those of religeous believers. Religeous believers (hopefully) live their live according to the rules of their faith which generally is that of a judgement day from a God/s, now your life that you lead on a day to day basis would not be that much different to most of those people, yet you are telling us that it is all nonsence and that you are free from such fear because it is at it core a superstition and not true.

If this is correct then you should be living your life drastically different.

All agnotices are effectively athiests.
 
Within a fifty mile radius of my home there are 56 cultures living together in peace and harmony. I am in the meca of what is known as the “global” community of planet Earth. Many of my dearest of friends don’t believe in God. Their endless compassion and kindness towards people has taught me to be a thoughtful, non-judgemental Christian. This is why I wouldn’t dream of preaching to anyone that my religion is superior to their faith or belief.

As far as Alec goes, he is very Christ-like in my mind. It’s not important to me if he believes in God for I know in my heart God loves Alec. So either way, Alec has his bases covered!

I pray for peace in the world. I trust in God to guide me on “my” journey so the light of LOVE will continue to shine on me and within me. May the light of LOVE shine on all present here. ~ :yup:
 
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