Defending the Faith

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funkyhorn

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My discussions with Non-Catholic Christians have been very productive and cordial and we usually seem to come away with a better understanding of eachother’s faiths. The problem I’ve been having is with those who have no faith, or rather, they subscribe to the premise that “We all worship the same God and He (or in some cases, She :confused: ) doesn’t care what religion we are just as long as we’re happy.”

Trying to reason with them through Scripture or Church teaching doesn’t work because they don’t believe those things to be any more authoritive than they themselves are.

Is there a line of reasoning or some argument that is effective in leading these people to the right path? These people (mostly family members) seem to justify the most radical things through this reasoning and we’re always butting heads over it.

HELP!
 
“If we are all worship the same God then why all the differences, or even contradtictions, among Theistic religions? God is not the maker of confusion”
 
beng said:
“If we are all worship the same God then why all the differences, or even contradtictions, among Theistic religions? God is not the maker of confusion”

They give me the whole, “whats right for you isn’t necessarily right for me.” argument. If having a bunch of rules to live by makes you happy then that is right for you; if having very few rules makes you happy, then that is right for you.

There is this HUGE grey area where everything is circumstantial. Abortion is wrong if x, but ok if y. Adultary is wrong if x, but ok if y. And so forth.
 
Ask them how they know right from wrong?

If everybody is able to do their own thing, then if I take out a gun and shot you there is no problem, right?

If the guy in the oncoming traffic lane likes your lane better, doesn’t he have that right?

Do they see the logical consequences to their actions?
 
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funkyhorn:
They give me the whole, “whats right for you isn’t necessarily right for me.” argument. If having a bunch of rules to live by makes you happy then that is right for you; if having very few rules makes you happy, then that is right for you.

There is this HUGE grey area where everything is circumstantial. Abortion is wrong if x, but ok if y. Adultary is wrong if x, but ok if y. And so forth.
No no no. Steer him in first.

The argument I put is the very first step. It needs to be established that there’s only ONE truth. You and him must agree to this. Forget the “whats right for you isn’t necessarily right for me.” first. Establish that you both need agree on the fact that there’s ONE truth.

One both of you have agreed to that, then he can bring his “whats right for you isn’t necessarily right for me.” And we move to the next step.

The next step would be which of the many religions is the right one. And argue to him that “since religion is of divine origin, there’s no such thing as ‘right for me’ or ‘right for you’ because that would put mortal subjectivity over divine providence”

The point of the above is to strip him out of his relativism and subjectivity point of view.

Then, after you do that, you can get to the historical detail analysis. Present to him the history of the Church and it’s divine origin. Some good hard evidences are the incorrupt saints. Point to him St Bernadette Soubirous, which he could see for himself with his own eyes at Lourdes France. Such unnatural miracles should serve as a prove of Catholicism divine origin. Ask him is there any incorruptables in other faith?
 
beng said:
“If we are all worship the same God then why all the differences, or even contradtictions, among Theistic religions? God is not the maker of confusion”

The word for Babel used in Gen 11:9 is the Hebrew word “balal” which has a literal translation of “confuse.” God has intentionally created confusion.
 
It sounds like those other “religions” are based on moral relativism. It’s a “church” built not on rock, but on shifting sands, and that’s what happens when “personal beliefs” replace “faith.”
 
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Shibboleth:
The word for Babel used in Gen 11:9 is the Hebrew word “balal” which has a literal translation of “confuse.” God has intentionally created confusion.
If you look at the verses preceeding verse 9, it says, “Then the Lord said, 'if now, while they are one people, all speaking the same language, they have started to do this, nothing will later stop them from doing whatever they presume to do.” Gen 11:6 (NAB)

So God confused us in order to prevent us from doing whatever we wanted to do? Does this make sense? Can anyone explain this to me?
 
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Shibboleth:
The word for Babel used in Gen 11:9 is the Hebrew word “balal” which has a literal translation of “confuse.” God has intentionally created confusion.
He confused the language. And they were heading toward false truth (trying to go up where God is)
 
Funkyhorn,
Is there a line of reasoning or some argument that is effective in leading these people to the right path? These people (mostly family members) seem to justify the most radical things through this reasoning and we’re always butting heads over it.
Maybe you can point out to them the aspect and nature of truth; and that it is out there. Tell them that truth cannot contradict itself and that each religion claims different contradictory things; therefore, they all can’t be right and it’s not a matter of what works for you or me because reality and truth aren’t dependent upon our acceptance (using an analogy to demonstrate this might help).

If they are receptive to this, you might then want to go on explaining to them some of what the Catholic Church teaches. If not, then just leave them alone and pray for them. People like that are often too lazy to delve deep into questions about theology and religion and they just want to leave things to, “whatever works for them”. You’ll find very little success in challenging them on a religious and theological basis.

People like them are probably best converted by perseverance in prayer and sacrifice.

Miguel.
 
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funkyhorn:
If you look at the verses preceeding verse 9, it says, “Then the Lord said, 'if now, while they are one people, all speaking the same language, they have started to do this, nothing will later stop them from doing whatever they presume to do.” Gen 11:6 (NAB)

So God confused us in order to prevent us from doing whatever we wanted to do? Does this make sense? Can anyone explain this to me?
You see the exact reason for it in the statements made by the Babylonians in Gen 11:4.

Gen 11:4
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

The people thought they could make themselves at par with the Lord and the heavens. They thought that they could create a structure or an area of land and a singular name that would consolidate them and that with these things they could accomplish Godly feats.

God did not want this so he made it so that they were not one people and language.
 
Men :rolleyes: You always have to conquer 😉 My husband was what he considered a staunch Deist when we married, but I prayed and prayed, loved and showed by example, and now he’s Catholic! Wasn’t it St Francis who said, “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words!”? 👍

Love,
Annie
 
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funkyhorn:
They give me the whole, “whats right for you isn’t necessarily right for me.” argument.
Sounds like relativism, which is logically inconsistent.

Look at the logical argument:

Premise: Relativism says that there are no absolutes.
Premise: Relativism is absolutely true.
Conclusion#1: Relativism is an absolute.
Conclusion#2: That conclusion says that relativism contradicts itself, and thus is logically inconsistent.
 
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AnnieM:
Men :rolleyes: You always have to conquer 😉 My husband was what he considered a staunch Deist when we married, but I prayed and prayed, loved and showed by example, and now he’s Catholic! Wasn’t it St Francis who said, “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words!”? 👍

Love,
Annie
Good Ole St, Francis of Asissi!
AnnieM, I love this quote…mainly because it’s the dead level truth.
You’re in good company…Constantine’s mom, as well as Augustine’s.
 
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funkyhorn:
My discussions with Non-Catholic Christians have been very productive and cordial and we usually seem to come away with a better understanding of eachother’s faiths. The problem I’ve been having is with those who have no faith, or rather, they subscribe to the premise that “We all worship the same God and He (or in some cases, She :confused: ) doesn’t care what religion we are just as long as we’re happy.”
Such a view of faith being based on what makes one happy, rather than on what is the truth, is a faith built upon a sack of potatoes, which is essentially what relativism and indifferentism is. It is a faith based on one’s personal whims and caprices, not upon divine revelation, and substitutes your personal preference for God Himself. It makes the person his own Pope and prophet all at once.

Gerry 🙂
 
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