Defending the faith

[catechumen08]

Hi all! Since I’m kind of new to the Catholic faith, I didn’t realize just how much antipathy some harbor against Catholicism, until recently. I was posting on a secular board a few days ago, and the amount of rancor thrown in my direction was just mind-boggling. It came from people of various denominations, as well as non-believers. I was rather surprised that some Protestants were even more vocal than atheists.

Their arguments were rather more of the same. Here’s a sample:

“you guys are unbelieveable. praying to dead. worshipping idols wearing hair shirts. baptizing babies. no sex unless it’s for making babies. all of this goes against the bible.
do you want me to go on?”

This is from a non-denominational lady who interprets the Bible in her own way.

Carrying my daily cross is turning out to be harder than I thought, but hey, I’ve always liked a good challenge!

 

[awalt]

Hey look what they did to Jesus, we can expect no better!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Being Catholic, is not for sissies.

Jim

 

[catechumen08]

Well, I was going to ask you guys how you deal with things like this. Do you simply ignore them? Or debate them? Or help them see the truth? How do you also appear charitable in the process?

 

[Servulus]

Well, I was going to ask you guys how you deal with things like this. Do you simply ignore them? Or debate them? Or help them see the truth? How do you also appear charitable in the process?

Quite a bit has to do with the circumstances of the discussion and the intent of the objector. Unfortunately, especially on internet forum boards, not all questions/comments are created equal. Some people are simply seeking the truth, others are just looking for trouble.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, I was going to ask you guys how you deal with things like this. Do you simply ignore them? Or debate them? Or help them see the truth? How do you also appear charitable in the process?

It depends on you. Myself, I’m a political junkie and I love to debate. My wife, hates debate, and avoids it at all cost.

I use to go into a Christian fundamentalist web-site, and yes I would debate them. It forced me to research the Catholic faith, deeper than I would have. I learned a lot and came to love the Church more and more.

I don’t think I ever won any converts that I know of, and I got banned a couple times, and post were sometimes deleted, because they claimed the links were to promote Catholic Doctrine.

I remember one post that was deleted was a link to the Spiritual Canticle of St. John of the Cross.

Luckily, since this web-site came into my world, I’ve never gone back to the other non catholic websites.

If you do debate, always, be charitable and understand that their lack of faith, is their own poverty.

Also, give yourself a break from it. It will give you head knowledge, but in general, it is not conducive toward spiritual growth.

Jim

 

[mercygate]

Well, I was going to ask you guys how you deal with things like this. Do you simply ignore them? Or debate them? Or help them see the truth? How do you also appear charitable in the process?

Welcome to the chalice of fire.

I NEVER debate. I don’t debate because debating implies that there is uncertainty on the subject.

We CAN explain Catholic teaching. But you have to size up your provocateur. When I realize there is no hope of dialogue, I usually say something like, “Whoa! You have some very strange ideas about Catholicism. Where did you hear that?”

One thing that happens is that when you begin to explain the Catholic position on something, they will cut you off before you finish and attack on a different flank. I have not yet learned to stop, hear them out, then reply: “Perhaps I should finish on the first question before moving on the next?”

It’s difficult because basically, what you are doing, even if you are the soul of kindness, is demonstrating to people that they are ignorant. This does not play well in Peoria – or anywhere else. And it does not encourage people to learn more about our faith.

 

[tomarin]

Hi all! Since I’m kind of new to the Catholic faith, I didn’t realize just how much antipathy some harbor against Catholicism, until recently. I was posting on a secular board a few days ago, and the amount of rancor thrown in my direction was just mind-boggling.

i’ve had exactly the same experience, on the internet and in real life – from family, friends, coworkers, and perfect strangers.

one way i deal with it is by staying away from secular message boards. the secular world seems to operate on the principle that if your opinion about something is formed by your faith, then it is by default invalid. to the modern, secular person, the only valid way of knowing something is through empirical experimentation such as science. therefore any knowledge that is spiritual and is consequently outside of that narrow way of knowing (aka wisdom) is beyond their ken and might as well not exist.

one has to be realistic about what to expect from people (sometimes they are ex-catholics) who have a grudge of some sort against catholicism and are unwilling to try to understand it on its own terms. these people are very different from those non-catholics who have at least what appears to be a reasonable objection to some aspect of catholicism.

the former you can’t reason with because their objection is largely emotional in nature whereas the latter will at least listen respectfully to your defense of your faith, and you may even change their opinion.

exposing yourself to views that are hostile to catholicism once in a while may have some merit, because it will harden you a little bit to what’s out there and give you some idea of what to expect from those quarters. but i wouldn’t recommend it on a regular basis – that would be sado-masochism.

on the other hand, dialogue with people who are not catholic and may have some objection to catholicism is worthwhile because it gives you a chance to defend your faith to an impartial audience and the exchange of views can be intellectually stimulating. of course you’re more likely to find those people here on this forum than on a secular site.

 

[CatholicSamurai]

I wish we could go back to the good old times when we fight for our faith and I mean literally fight for it… Enough talk! Draw thy sword! But that’s just my little defect.

You just gotta learn Church teachings, it’s the only way to get armed. Now, the Church is so rich that we can find answers to everything. It’s just a matter of finding the proper answer. The people who attack us just don’t know any better or are just simply ignorant of the fact. Another thing I noticed is that some Protestants will not understand us because they don’t have the experience we have… they only have their precious bibles… which in reality limits them. Unbiblical my behind. They’re the ones who aren’t biblical. Some of these people are against us because of what we stand for… they just don’t want to submit themselves to a higher authority for the fear of losing freedom. Are you kidding me? See how these people actually know nothing? Some of these people are against us because we’re probably too righteous for them… What? Can’t handle the heat?

I say we Catholics should start firing back… of course we have to do it in charity… no passivity either. It should depend on how the Holy Spirit moves you… we’re CATHOLICs for crying out loud.

In my case… I started learning everything I can about Catholicism. It’s been about four years now and I’m still learning. Like I said, we’re so rich. I don’t engage in debates due to my personality but I will engage some other way when engaged. That being said, I haven’t been engaged fully. My intention will not be to convert them… rather to make them think.

 

[Graing]

Being Catholic, is not for sissies.

Jim

Haha very true Jim.

catechumen08

Well, I was going to ask you guys how you deal with things like this. Do you simply ignore them? Or debate them? Or help them see the truth? How do you also appear charitable in the process?

Others have posted some very good advice. A lot of it depends on what thier goal is. Are they honestly mistaken in thier understanding and open to correction about what Catholics believe? Or are they just there for sport trying to pick on you for your faith. Sometimes that answer is difficult to decipher. Of course, you don’t need to feel compelled to debate and if you do be prepared for lots of circular logic, sophistry and straw men . I think it is a great gift to be confronted on issues of faith as it typically helps me by leading me to do some research and come to a better understanding. As opposed to debating, you can simply state the teachings of the Church to dispell any false notions about idol or Marian worship, etc. And you will be richer in the end for having deepened your understanding Win-win!

 

[mercygate]

Haha very true Jim.

catechumen08

Others have posted some very good advice. A lot of it depends on what thier goal is. Are they honestly mistaken in thier understanding and open to correction about what Catholics believe? Or are they just there for sport trying to pick on you for your faith. Sometimes that answer is difficult to decipher. Of course, you don’t need to feel compelled to debate and if you do be prepared for lots of circular logic, sophistry and straw men . I think it is a great gift to be confronted on issues of faith as it typically helps me by leading me to do some research and come to a better understanding. As opposed to debating, you can simply state the teachings of the Church to dispell any false notions about idol or Marian worship, etc. And you will be richer in the end for having deepened your understanding Win-win!

Roger everything here.

My own approach to apologetics came from being blammed once too often with a challenge (you worship statues) to which I knew the fifty-dollar answer but could not put into a fifty-cent format. You will need the fifty-cent format for most people who come atcha. But make sure you respond calmly with an answer that makes them think.

Do not expect instant (any) conversions.

 

[Miles_Militis]

Well, I was going to ask you guys how you deal with things like this. Do you simply ignore them? Or debate them? Or help them see the truth? How do you also appear charitable in the process?

I never ignore a good debate, especially if challenged. Well, ok…sometimes situations dictate I don’t have the time to address something or whatever, so I do let some things slip. But when I can I love taking it head on.

Debate is an incredibly good thing!

1. Many, many, many arguments out there are based on false information / misconceptions about what the Catholic Church actually teaches, a little information can go a long way with some people’s dispositions toward the Church.
2. It keeps you sharp on the Church’s teachings and helps you build knowledge of your own faith.

Now I only recommend debate to those who actually can debate. By that I mean don’t go out saying ‘Because its what I believe!’, that’s not debate, that is a statement. In a debate it will be brushed aside and translated as ‘I don’t have an answer.’ (which isn’t always a bad thing, and will happen occasionally).

Make logical arguments! Gather information, make sure what you’re saying is actual Church teaching! I’ve debated many atheist / protestants who’ve said ‘Well, my friend is a Catholic and he says x’ when that isn’t at all what the Church teaches. Don’t be afraid to do some research, the internet is a wonderful resource use it! One of the great things about internet debate is it gives you time to check your facts / brush up on some things. Here are some good resources:

Online Catechism: usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm

Bible: usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm

You may have these already, but online you can search them: usccb.org:8765/query.html?col=&qt=&Go.x=15&Go.y=6&Go=Go

newadvent.net/

catholiceducation.org/directory/Core_Subjects/Apologetics/

Don’t be afraid to use google and do some digging. If you get stumped, there’s always here you can post!

A few rules I would suggest to stick to though:

1. Check your spelling and your grammar. You don’t have to be anal about it, but you will be taken much more seriously if you write well then if you write like this “lolz u got pwnt!”
2. Make logical and convincing arguments. Figure out where you agree (i.e. do they believe in a God? If not there is no point in arguing anything about the bible), and work from there. Read your arguments before you post them, thinking from their perspective. “If I did not believe in Christ / Catholicism, would this make sense? Is it a compelling argument?”
3. Define your terms, make sure everyone is on the same page. I’ve had some long debates only to realize we were both saying essentially the same thing.
4. Watch what you say! like I said, make sure you’re not working off of what your buddy told you about the Church, make sure you verify info before saying it, even if it helps your cause. don’t take anyone’s word for gospel truth, look it up. If you find out you’re wrong they can easily quote your previous statements.
5. Be respectful! This probably should be #1 on the list (if I was giving it an any particular order). I had someone all but threaten my life (depending on how you read his words…it could be considered a serious threat), just because I said I was Catholic. Kill them with kindness!!! Don’t let them anger you. If you get upset, respond with facts. Ad-hominum (personal) attacks fall flat on there face when confronted with a real argument.
6. It doesn’t hurt to familiarize yourself with some basic logic / logical fallacies. This has been a great help to me! Not only have I been able to call out people for using logically flawed arguments, but its also good because many people who challenge you to debates probably are familiar with argumentation and debate themselves.
7. This was kinda mentioned before, but do your research! I’ve had atheists quote the bible better then I could ever hope to, and be able to come up with a bunch of arguments off the top of their heads that force me to really look into some things.
8. Know how to concede something graciously. I lost a debate once because I simply couldn’t answer their question. Despite my research I couldn’t come up with a response they would appreciate. (i.e. it was a matter of faith). Unless you believe some things, Catholicism makes no sense to believe in. In the end, everyone respected me and my faith because I was honest when I said I couldn’t answer them.

Hmmm… that’s about everything off the top of my head, if I can think of anything else I’ll post it. Let me know if you need anything!

Happy trails!!