Defending the Holy Father from my father

[coolduude]

Hello all,

My dad wrote on facebook today about this article:
foxnews.com/us/2010/04/09/files-future-pope-resisted-defrocking-priest/?test=latestnews

I won’t copy/paste his actual post because that’s just not something I should do. But I will say that in the post he calls himself a “conservative Catholic” then summarizes Church moral teaching listing sins and their gravity (ex: Missing Mass- Grave sin. Sex before marriage- Grave sin, etc) He gets to pedophile priests and says basically “why don’t we send you to another church instead of immediately defrocking you to save embarrassment of the greater Church”. (paraphrased)

He closes his post by saying “This pope has aided and abbetted a known pedophile. He should resign if he really cares about the faithful and if he is a real man he should find a way to turn himself into the authorities. I will not defend this pope at all, I am so ashamed.”

When I read that last sentence I almost cried.

How do I stick up for Holy Mother Church in times like this and from attacks like these? Especially from my own father…

I know I will always be loyal to Mother Church, no matter what the situation be. But how do I respond to those who are not?

coolduude

 

[ljubim]

All I can think of is to pray. What a horrible situation, I am very sorry that you have to go through this

 

[Rascalking]

Hello all,

My dad wrote on facebook today about this article:
foxnews.com/us/2010/04/09/files-future-pope-resisted-defrocking-priest/?test=latestnews

I won’t copy/paste his actual post because that’s just not something I should do. But I will say that in the post he calls himself a “conservative Catholic” then summarizes Church moral teaching listing sins and their gravity (ex: Missing Mass- Grave sin. Sex before marriage- Grave sin, etc) He gets to pedophile priests and says basically “why don’t we send you to another church instead of immediately defrocking you to save embarrassment of the greater Church”. (paraphrased)

He closes his post by saying “This pope has aided and abbetted a known pedophile. He should resign if he really cares about the faithful and if he is a real man he should find a way to turn himself into the authorities. I will not defend this pope at all, I am so ashamed.”

When I read that last sentence I almost cried.

How do I stick up for Holy Mother Church in times like this and from attacks like these? Especially from my own father…

I know I will always be loyal to Mother Church, no matter what the situation be. But how do I respond to those who are not?

coolduude

I’ve answered you before in some posts, and I’m sure I’m not your favorite guy on here. But I can’t help it sometimes! I’m sorry!

Being loyal is one thing. Being blind and naive is another. I’m loyal, and I’m naive in some ways, bitter and cynical in others.

Understanding is crucial to this scandal. We, as lay people, have a right to be angry. In fact, loyal Catholics who try to do their best have a bigger right to be angry!

As I’ve said before (I don’t know your age) respect your father! You don’t have to respond to some of these things. You need to realize that he is your father, like him or not, and he deserves your respect.

It would be best to take some medicine (metaphor for dealing with a uncomfortable situation) and perhaps let your dad sort this out yourself.

I know this stinks, but to say it again, a little bit of humility might be a good thing. Your dad is still your dad.
Never, ever forget to pray.

 

[Julian0404]

Your father is surrendering to the culture of “talking heads”, but he is your father. Pray the Rosary for him that truth and patience will find a home in his heart.

And pray for the Holy Father, that these attacks by satan, he will overcome and defeat.

Then read Psalm 27

 

[momor]

I know I will always be loyal to Mother Church, no matter what the situation be. But how do I respond to those who are not?

coolduude

There is a difference between the Holy Mother Church and the mortal men who make up the clergy. Questioning any of the latter does not automatically mean questioning the Church or the Faith.

 

[Sirach_43]

There is a difference between the Holy Mother Church and the mortal men who make up the clergy. Questioning any of the latter does not automatically mean questioning the Church or the Faith.

Frankly I agree with your father in that shame and anger are legitimate responses to the scandal in the church. Whether the particular allegations in the article will be verified is not yet known, but this whole situation sickens me, especially BECAUSE I am a faithful Catholic. I haven’t been too impressed with the Vatican this past couple of weeks who seem to be engaged more in damage control then in effectively pastoring a wounded Church.

 

[kage_ar]

You cannot argue with a bigot. Those who hate the Church will try every day to kill her. Pray for you dad and don’t get drawn into his venom.

 

[Joegrane]

BECOME INFORMED!

The recent allegations against the pope are bogus when you get the accurate information and understand how the church leadership structure works.

The Catholic League is the best source I’ve seen. Bill Donahue gets the facts and tells it like it is.

I understand that the local bishop has the authority to remove the priest’s faculties and take him out of active ministry. The Vatican is not required for this.

I understand that the church does not use the word ‘defrock’ in canon law and so it should not be used in the discussion. Reporters have a responsibility to become informed about the topic they are reporting–unless they are intentionally trying to misinform readers.

I understand that in the 1980’s the Vatican was required when a priest wanted to leave and get married, that is, to be laicized.

I was in the seminary at this time and recall that the new Pope John Paul II wanted to reduce the number of laicizations. I strongly suspect the accused delays are actually about laicizations not about removing a priest’s faculties or removing his permission to active ministry.

The accusations against the Pope will not stick because it was the local bishop’s job to remove the priest from active ministry.

 

[purplesunshine]

I don’t think that this is so much a case of pure bigotry as true fear an (some) substantiated hatred towards abusers.

Your father dosn’t have all the facts. Right now it dosn’t seem like B16 was involved, although some are making the case that he was.

If it turns out that he WAS involved (and again, it dosn’t seem as if he was) then we should be ashamed. There is NO excuse for passing off priests that are know sexual abusers NO excuse at all. And if anyone, priest, bishop or even Pope, knowingly did this then there should be swift punishment for it.

I think only time will be able to clear things up.

Your father hasn’t attacked the church, only a man. A man who may yet turn out to be a great saint or a horrible sinner.

 

[Angelic_Rose]

Remind him of this own sins and tell him he deserves death. Let the Pope and the bishops and the priests worry each about their own sins and they should remember all they deserve is death.

And then let us all be thankful that Jesus Christ has established His Church on earth. And it is through His death, that we can still have eternal Life.

Are we not taught by Jesus Christ to forgive? It seems like your father must have forgotten the Lord’s message of forgiveness. We are always so quick to point fingers and yet none of us want to realize that these abusers and those who may have protected them are human beings, sinners. Jesus forgave all of those who were there crucifying Him— I do truly believe should the Pope had any role in protecting an abuser that he deserves forgiveness too.

 

[Rascalking]

Remind him of this own sins and tell him he deserves death. Let the Pope and the bishops and the priests worry each about their own sins and they should remember all they deserve is death.

And then let us all be thankful that Jesus Christ has established His Church on earth. And it is through His death, that we can still have eternal Life.

Are we not taught by Jesus Christ to forgive? It seems like your father must have forgotten the Lord’s message of forgiveness. We are always so quick to point fingers and yet none of us want to realize that these abusers and those who may have protected them are human beings, sinners. Jesus forgave all of those who were there crucifying Him— I do truly believe should the Pope had any role in protecting an abuser that he deserves forgiveness too.

Angelic-

This is all very nice, and I sort of agree with you. However, I think the WORST thing we can do, as Catholics/Christians-is preach to those who where abused. They have every right to be angry.

 

[purplesunshine]

Angelic-

This is all very nice, and I sort of agree with you. However, I think the WORST thing we can do, as Catholics/Christians-is preach to those who where abused. They have every right to be angry.

So true, Rascal.

And for some people the idea of priests who do such things is just barbaric but they hate it from the outside. For others they have firsthand knowlege of abuse and what it does to you, weither by priest or stranger. Telling someone to “mind their own sins” so to speak is overly simplistic.

I know someone about 5 years older than me…well, actually I know his mom. He was abused by a non-diocesan priest in his mid-teen years. The crippling pain that was caused to this man who’d already had 2 (looser) fathers at this point changed his entire way of thinking. He’s now a firm believer in astrial planes and 2012 being the end of the world. Its SO sad. And I don’t have to see/deal with him in my daily life. If I did I think I’d get stuck in the digust that the general public feels right now towards the Church.

(and that’s not to say the general public shouldn’t feel disgust towards other offending adults…and believe me there’s alot of disgust that needs to be spread around.)

 

[momor]

You cannot argue with a bigot. Those who hate the Church will try every day to kill her. Pray for you dad and don’t get drawn into his venom.

I don’t know if you mean to say that all who question/criticize the Church are bigots and haters but if you do, that is grossly unfair. There are very just reasons for anger and criticism. It can justly be argued that those who love the Church want to see her cleansed of all filth among the clergy.

 

[kage_ar]

I don’t know if you mean to say that all who question/criticize the Church are bigots and haters but if you do, that is grossly unfair. There are very just reasons for anger and criticism. It can justly be argued that those who love the Church want to see her cleansed of all filth among the clergy.

The OP quoted the bigoted words of his father.

I have no room to criticize, I am a sinner.

 

[Rascalking]

.

I have no room to criticize, I am a sinner.

I might be reading this wrong, I apologize if I am.

Actually, the fact that we are sinners doesn’t mean we can’t criticize bad behavior. It’s just important to critique the behavior, and not the person.

Think about it this way-If someone smokes, they can still argue against smoking. If someone had an affair, they can still say that it’s not a healthy or good idea.

We’re all sinners, of varying degrees. We CAN say what is good and bad behavior.

True, we need to work on ourselves, and goodness knows we should, nor should we walk around being self-righteous, but we can still say, “Hey, that’s bad behavior. Knock it off”.

 

[joandarc2008]

I posted this on another thread - Please take a moment read it and share it - these are my own words to describe how I feel this affecting Mother Church:

Anytime there is good, there will be a great force of evil to destroy. Nothing is better than or more good than the One True Church, Christs Church. Evil has gotten Her by affecting her reputation through scandal caused by temptation from within. We as members of Christ’s Church must recognize the difference between reprehensible actions of a few that cause great scandal and the good day to day actions of many that go unnoticed. This type of scandal has the ability to destroy the laity’s faith in the Priesthood. Once that is destroyed so is the Priesthood. Once the Priesthood is gone so is the Eucharist. If we cannot learn to seperate these actions evil will win by removing the True Presence of Christ from our midst on our Earth. We must protect our Priesthood by recognizing that these are the actions of a few lead by evil and not the norm for the good actions of the priesthood done on a day to day basis.

 

[coolduude]

Evil will never prevail against the Church because Christ said it wouldn’t.

 

[purplesunshine]

I posted this on another thread - Please take a moment read it and share it - these are my own words to describe how I feel this affecting Mother Church:

Anytime there is good, there will be a great force of evil to destroy. Nothing is better than or more good than the One True Church, Christs Church. Evil has gotten Her by affecting her reputation through scandal caused by temptation from within. We as members of Christ’s Church must recognize the difference between reprehensible actions of a few that cause great scandal and the good day to day actions of many that go unnoticed. This type of scandal has the ability to destroy the laity’s faith in the Priesthood. Once that is destroyed so is the Priesthood. Once the Priesthood is gone so is the Eucharist. If we cannot learn to seperate these actions evil will win by removing the True Presence of Christ from our midst on our Earth. We must protect our Priesthood by recognizing that these are the actions of a few lead by evil and not the norm for the good actions of the priesthood done on a day to day basis.

While you’re right Joan in many respects I am not certain all priests are under fire. The people who ARE under fire are those in places of even more power and authority. This isn’t a simple case where the “horse-shoe nail” poem fits. This isn’t about saying that most priests are good men. This IS about bishops who knowingly put children in danger by moving a priests. And while I see that many priests are good men it seems to me that more and more bishops are guilty for spreading the very few horrible priests.

 

[joandarc2008]

While you’re right Joan in many respects I am not certain all priests are under fire. The people who ARE under fire are those in places of even more power and authority. This isn’t a simple case where the “horse-shoe nail” poem fits. This isn’t about saying that most priests are good men. This IS about bishops who knowingly put children in danger by moving a priests. And while I see that many priests are good men it seems to me that more and more bishops are guilty for spreading the very few horrible priests.

While I am sure many of the faithful make that differentiation between the few and the many the problem is those that just see the collar and not the man in it. It is much like the mentality that brought racism to us in our history as well as many other kinds of ism’s which have been deemed inherently evil.

 

[kage_ar]

I might be reading this wrong, I apologize if I am.

Actually, the fact that we are sinners doesn’t mean we can’t criticize bad behavior. It’s just important to critique the behavior, and not the person.

The secular media is having a field day over sins that were committed in the past. Those sins have been confessed, I leave them in the hands of Jesus.