Defending the Immaculate Conception

[TBolt1000T]

How do I defend the Immaculate Conception against Protestants who say that it was totally unnecessary? I know how to refute the argument that we’ve made Mary equal with Christ by making her sinless, but how do I refute the argument that if Mary had to be sinless in order to conceive Jesus without sin, that that would diminish the power of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

how do I refute the argument that if Mary had to be sinless in order to conceive Jesus without sin, that that would diminish the power of the Holy Spirit?

I don’t think you do refute it. If Mary herself could be conceived without sin, then Christ could have been.

It was fitting that Mary would be conceived without sin, but not necessary in order that Christ not be.

Make any sense?
VC

 

[adstrinity]

Because if She had sin, She would be under the control (in some sense) of the devil. If a woman who was subject to the devil was carrying God, God would be in the devil (if She had sin). IF God was subject to a sinful woman who had sin and therefore had said yes to the devil in some way in Her past, then, as subject to the devil, the devil would have control over Her in the same way he does us. If this was the case, he could have easily caused Her to miscarry.

There’s also the classic Arc of the Covenant argument…

Since Jesus inherited the body and blood of His Mother, He would have also inherited sin from Her.

And, Mary HAD to be free from all sin in order to have the absolute free will to say yes to God in this situation. If She had any taint of sin, her opinion whether to say yes or no may have been skewd and clouded.

 

[Soutane]

How do I defend the Immaculate Conception against Protestants who say that it was totally unnecessary? I know how to refute the argument that we’ve made Mary equal with Christ by making her sinless, but how do I refute the argument that if Mary had to be sinless in order to conceive Jesus without sin, that that would diminish the power of the Holy Spirit?

Apparantly God found it necessary,or most fitting.Where do they come off accusing us of limiting the power of the Holy Spirit?One has NOTHING to do with the other.

 

[BRB]

the devil would have control over Her in the same way he does us. If this was the case, he could have easily caused Her to miscarry.

.

I don’t think Catholic Church subscribes to this idea.

Scriptures teach the devil is allowed to conduct spiritual warfare against all.

But, in physical matters … we must give access thru our actions/deeds… [excepting cases like Job, where God specifically allowed satan to bring physical harm upon Job w/o cause].

For example: A crack cocaine or ETOH addicted mother … puts fetus at risk.

 

[adstrinity]

I don’t think Catholic Church subscribes to this idea.

Scriptures teach the devil is allowed to conduct spiritual warfare against all.

But, in physical matters … we must give access thru our actions/deeds… [excepting cases like Job, where God specifically allowed satan to bring physical harm upon Job w/o cause].

For example: A crack cocaine or ETOH addicted mother … puts fetus at risk.

I believe it was this forum where I first learned about this theory.

Also, keep in mind, Job had no personal sin, but, still was under original sin. If Mary was subject to sin, She’d be subject to the devil. She was free from the devil completely. He couldn’t get to the Baby in utero.

 

[BRB]

I believe it was this forum where I first learned about this theory.

Also, keep in mind, Job had no personal sin, but, still was under original sin. If Mary was subject to sin, She’d be subject to the devil. She was free from the devil completely. He couldn’t get to the Baby in utero.

This opens up a can of worms. For example … all of us sin daily. At least 7 X’s. Does this allow satan access to our bodies to reek havoc ? Causing cancers to form, causing Heart Attacks, causing car wrecks, spontaneous abortions, etc ?

Perhaps he was behind the nightmare of 9/11 … and responsible for all the murders that day. And, behind the madmen in history … stalin, hitler, etc. But, thats not exactly the same matter / issue.

 

[adstrinity]

This opens up a can of worms. For example … all of us sin daily. At least 7 X’s. Does this allow satan access to our bodies to reek havoc ? Causing cancers to form, causing Heart Attacks, causing car wrecks, spontaneous abortions, etc ?

Perhaps he was behind the nightmare of 9/11 … and responsible for all the murders that day. And, behind the madmen in history … stalin, hitler, etc. But, thats not exactly the same matter / issue.

Yes. That is exactly it. See how the devil can get to us in a way he couldn’t get to Her?

 

[BRB]

Yes. That is exactly it. See how the devil can get to us in a way he couldn’t get to Her?

Whoa …

I don’t buy into your theory. God lets the sun and rain fall upon the just and unjust. Its at the end of life that the books are opened and all must answer for unconfessed sins.

The righteous get cancers and die in car wrecks … just like the unjust. Even Mary died … of some cause.

But, if we abuse our bodies … cigs, drugs, unprotected sex, etc … that will usually take an early toll.

Original sin is somehow linked to physical breakdown/ageing of body … thru genetic DNA code.

Yes, it appears Christ got his maternal DNA from Mary. But, not original sin. It is impossible for God to inherit O.S. from mankind. Can the clay give sin to the potter ? Anything Christ touches can potentially be restored to full health. The paternal eternal DNA simply overwhelmed the mortal maternal heritable traits.

Alternatively, O.S. has nothing to do with genetics … and totally separate and placed in mortal men/women at conception. John the Baptizer seems to have missed out on O.S. Maybe Mary had similar cleansing from conception … totally unrelated to her heritable DNA traits.

 

[adstrinity]

Whoa …

I don’t buy into your theory. God lets the sun and rain fall upon the just and unjust. Its at the end of life that the books are opened and all must answer for unconfessed sins.

The righteous get cancers and die in car wrecks … just like the unjust. Even Mary died … of some cause.

But, if we abuse our bodies … cigs, drugs, unprotected sex, etc … that will usually take an early toll.

Original sin is somehow linked to physical breakdown/ageing of body … thru genetic DNA code.

Yes, it appears Christ got his maternal DNA from Mary. But, not original sin. It is impossible for God to inherit O.S. from mankind. Can the clay give sin to the potter ? Anything Christ touches can potentially be restored to full health. The paternal eternal DNA simply overwhelmed the mortal maternal heritable traits.

Alternatively, O.S. has nothing to do with genetics … and totally separate and placed in mortal men/women at conception. John the Baptizer seems to have missed out on O.S. Maybe Mary had similar cleansing from conception … totally unrelated to her heritable DNA traits.

He didn’t get Original Sin because She didn’t have original sin. IF She did, yes, He would have inherited it. That is why it was so important that She be completely free and void of sin. He would have been born in sin and have sin since He got everything human from His Mother. John the Baptist was conceived in original sin, but, it was removed by Jesus at the Visitation.

 

[thistle]

How do I defend the Immaculate Conception against Protestants who say that it was totally unnecessary? I know how to refute the argument that we’ve made Mary equal with Christ by making her sinless, but how do I refute the argument that if Mary had to be sinless in order to conceive Jesus without sin, that that would diminish the power of the Holy Spirit?

Are they saying they don’t believe it or that they believe it but think it was not necessary?

 

[promethius]

How do I defend the Immaculate Conception against Protestants who say that it was totally unnecessary? I know how to refute the argument that we’ve made Mary equal with Christ by making her sinless, but how do I refute the argument that if Mary had to be sinless in order to conceive Jesus without sin, that that would diminish the power of the Holy Spirit?

Well, the main thing to remember is that Jesus is the Final Paschal Sacrifice. This was an old covenant procedure with very strict regimines established by God Himself.

The lamb and the high priest both were the only ones allowed inside of the arc of the covenant prior to the sacrifice. (Mary’s womb is the only place that fits this description, and Jesus is the only one who was ever there as Lamb and High Priest. Thus Mary’s womb was tabernacle, and her body HAD to be composed of pure materials… aka, without sin, in order to validly house the Sacrificial Lamb. This is also argument for why Mary had no other children… by the old covenant, NO other children would have been allowed to pass through, as that would have been a violation of the strictures of the arc of the covenant)

The lamb had to meet certain criteria, no broken bones, etc. Jesus met these criteria as well. That’s why it’s significant that He was the only one whose legs were not broken that day.

The lamb also had to be consumed in flesh and blood or the sacrifice was invalid. This is a wonderful argument in favor of transubstantiation as well. By old covenant understanding, which was established by God, one MUST partake of the sacrificial lamb in order to glean value from the sacrifice. By the same note, one MUST eat the literal Body and Blood of Christ, or they cannot partake of His final sacrifice and join in salvation. It’s simply a requirement made by God.

 

[Newman10]

A lot of people are saying that for Jesus to be conceived without original sin, Mary couldn’t have original sin. This doesn’t make sense to me.

Wouldn’t that then mean that Mary’s parents would have had to be without sin, to conceive her without sin? And then wouldn’t their parents, and so on?

If Mary could be conceived without sin by sinful parents, then doesn’t it make sense that Jesus could as well?

Forgive me if these are bad questions. I am Catholic but only recently have started to engage some of the deeper and more fundamental questions.

Thanks!

 

[BRB]

He didn’t get Original Sin because She didn’t have original sin. IF She did, yes, He would have inherited it. He would have been born in sin and have sin since He got everything human from His Mother. John the Baptist was conceived in original sin, but, it was removed by Jesus at the Visitation.

Think about what you are saying here. “Got everything from his Mother”… Clearly he received half his human genetic code from
Paternal Godhead.

Jesus has existed from the beginning. Even you acknowledge that John was fully cleansed by Christ … shortly before Christ takes on human flesh in womb of Mary.

God can do whatever he likes in his own universe. He designed and makes all the rules. Can he not touch one and not be soiled by our sinful state ? Indeed he can. It happened all thru the gospels … with the miraculous healings.

Yes, for one 3 hr period he took on the sins of all mankind on cross. Actually longer if we count the hours of his torture before going to Calvary. But, this was only by his consent to the Godhead … to allow himself to bear our sins. But, at the conclusion of Calvary … he yielded his spirit back to the Father in victory. The sin debt has been paid … Christ stained by our sins, and even still bearing scars of the event after his Resurrection. John’s vision later yet … still depicts Christ bearing bloody stains of Calvary.

John’s vision of Christ in the Apocalypse is that of the 'Lamb standing, as though it had been slain … approaching the Father and receiving the scroll from Him. A Victorious Christ, to whom all the elders and angels are singing “Worthy is the Lamb who WAS slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” Christ having “ransomed men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.”

When Christ entered Mary … he either purified her instantaneously, or already had accomplished this cleansing preparation in her at an earlier date. The Father desired a sinless environment for the Son … so the Church believes.

 

[VociMike]

He didn’t get Original Sin because She didn’t have original sin. IF She did, yes, He would have inherited it.

The problem with this idea is that Mary then must have had original sin because her parents had it, and they must have had it because their parents had it, all the way back to the children of Adam and Eve.

 

[adstrinity]

The problem with this idea is that Mary then must have had original sin because her parents had it, and they must have had it because their parents had it, all the way back to the children of Adam and Eve.

A lot of people are saying that for Jesus to be conceived without original sin, Mary couldn’t have original sin. This doesn’t make sense to me.

Wouldn’t that then mean that Mary’s parents would have had to be without sin, to conceive her without sin? And then wouldn’t their parents, and so on?

If Mary could be conceived without sin by sinful parents, then doesn’t it make sense that Jesus could as well?

Forgive me if these are bad questions. I am Catholic but only recently have started to engage some of the deeper and more fundamental questions.

Thanks!

No. This is where Imacculate Conception comes in. She was born to sinful parents, yes. Sts. Joachim and Anne were born in sin, She was preserved from this SPECIFICALLY FOR JESUS. This is not new to Catholocism.

 

[adstrinity]

Think about what you are saying here. “Got everything from his Mother”… Clearly he received half his human genetic code from
Paternal Godhead.

Jesus has existed from the beginning. Even you acknowledge that John was fully cleansed by Christ … shortly before Christ takes on human flesh in womb of Mary.

God can do whatever he likes in his own universe. He designed and makes all the rules. Can he not touch one and not be soiled by our sinful state ? Indeed he can. It happened all thru the gospels … with the miraculous healings.

Yes, for one 3 hr period he took on the sins of all mankind on cross. Actually longer if we count the hours of his torture before going to Calvary. But, this was only by his consent to the Godhead … to allow himself to bear our sins. But, at the conclusion of Calvary … he yielded his spirit back to the Father in victory. The sin debt has been paid … Christ stained by our sins, and even still bearing scars of the event after his Resurrection. John’s vision later yet … still depicts Christ bearing bloody stains of Calvary.

John’s vision of Christ in the Apocalypse is that of the 'Lamb standing, as though it had been slain … approaching the Father and receiving the scroll from Him. A Victorious Christ, to whom all the elders and angels are singing “Worthy is the Lamb who WAS slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” Christ having “ransomed men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.”

When Christ entered Mary … he either purified her instantaneously, or already had accomplished this cleansing preparation in her at an earlier date. The Father desired a sinless environment for the Son … so the Church believes.

No, He recieved ALL His genetic human code from His Mother. NONE of His genetic human code came from His Father. THAT is why His Mother NEEDED to be sinless.

I am telling you what the Catholic Church says, I am not stating anything heretical nor am I inventing anything novel.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Here’s an idea that I have - I don’t know if the Catholic Church would approve of these thoughts, but here goes…

Eve, the spouse of Adam, was created sinless.
Israel, the spouse of The Father, was created sinless (I think?).
The Church, the spouse of The Christ, was created sinless.
So, I find it fitting that Mary, the spouse of The Holy Spirit, was created sinless.

I know Protestants won’t accept this because they dismiss Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, just my thoughts. :twocents: I’m happy for someone to correct me.