Defending the Papacy against "covering it up"?

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This is a subject that has troubled me for sometime. It’s difficult for me to get an answer for it to. Many sources show that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI both have a part in the covering up of the priestly sexual abuse scandals. I’ve even been told by my dear friend and pastor who now studies in Rome that it was an evil committed in the Church and there is no excuse; the only viable solution for it is forgiveness and prayer. Due to certain obstacles, I haven’t been able to get a more clear answer back from him. So, with the excellence and Catholic prowess that the posters of CAF have, I felt it necessary to ask my question here.

Did both JPII and Benedict XVI have a hand in the “shuffling” of these predatory priests? How do I tell a strict Atheist or Agnostic the truth about this problem without allowing them to further attack the Church?
 
This is a subject that has troubled me for sometime. It’s difficult for me to get an answer for it to. Many sources show that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI both have a part in the covering up of the priestly sexual abuse scandals.

I’ve even been told by my dear friend and pastor who now studies in Rome that it was an evil committed in the Church and there is no excuse; the only viable solution for it is forgiveness and prayer. Due to certain obstacles, I haven’t been able to get a more clear answer back from him. So, with the excellence and Catholic prowess that the posters of CAF have, I felt it necessary to ask my question here.

Did both JPII and Benedict XVI have a hand in the “shuffling” of these predatory priests? How do I tell a strict Atheist or Agnostic the truth about this problem without allowing them to further attack the Church?
People who want to lay all this at either JPII or BXVI’s feet don’t understand how priests are assigned and what part the papacy plays in investigating abuse by priests.

Bishops and religious orders, not popes, assign priests to parishes and other Catholic institutions. A pope may receive notice of such assignments from all around the world, but he doesn’t decide which priest goes where. If a pope had that responsiblity he’d be doing nothing else. It was a few bishops who made serious mistakes by taking the word of mental health professionals who told the bishops that abuse of children could be “cured”, and so reassigned priests who supposedly were “cured”. Either that or they thought of child abuse as sin that could be repented and not done again, but we know now that it is not that simple, but rather that such behavior is a deep-seated mental defect, besides a moral failing.

Also, many of the cases were of older teen boys, not little children, but still inexcusable. Also, and here is what contributed the most to the problem, priests were favored by their bishops do to their bishops inability to grasp the full horror of what was going on. The bishops thought of the abuse more as sin than as crimes. This was a huge mistake, which in perspective can be understood, but naturally, not tolerated.

When this situation was finally made known to the pope, many of these cases had long since legally expired or those involved had expired. It was up to law enforcement and the courts to sort it out since crimes were commited. There was nothing to be done by the Vatican except discipline the bishops who allowed it to happen and change policies, which the Vatican did. No one, not even the police, can stop people from commiting crimes, but they can be reasonably prevented, which is what the Church has been trying to do ever since the abuse was uncovered.

This is what I’ve gathered by reading up on the various cases and how they wer handled. Others will have more information.
 
Did both JPII and Benedict XVI have a hand in the “shuffling” of these predatory priests? How do I tell a strict Atheist or Agnostic the truth about this problem without allowing them to further attack the Church?
You can admit fault where there is fault. However, at least with regards to Pope Benedict, I have not found any evidence of intent to “cover-up.” So my recommendation is to ask the accusers to set forth the evidence to see if they are filling in the blanks with bigotry or if they have something incriminating. This site seems to have evidence countering the media frenzy against Pope Benedict (and Matthew Bunson’s book on the side). I know one of the media-promoted lawsuits against Pope Benedict was abruptly dropped last year.

If I can find a link I have in mind re: JP2, I’ll post it…
 
Here’s Jimmy Akin on Pope Benedict and the “Murphy” case which the NY Times used to try and incriminate the Pope.
 
If I can find a link I have in mind re: JP2, I’ll post it…
I can’t find this. I seem to recall it was Jimmy Akin or Patrick Madrid talking about a particular priest and that it was puzzling why the Pope moved him when he did, or something like that. Maybe that will jog someone else’s memory.
 
I can’t find this. I seem to recall it was Jimmy Akin or Patrick Madrid talking about a particular priest and that it was puzzling why the Pope moved him when he did, or something like that. Maybe that will jog someone else’s memory.
Are you thinking of Cardinal Law, or Legion of Christ founder Marcial Maciel?
 
For the sake of discussion, let’s say that certain popes had knowledge of such activities and covered them up. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time in the history of the Church that leaders made some bad decisions.

So, what would we say in such a situation?

I’d start with the idea that we all are human and as such we are all subject to sin…and the further “up the hierarchy ladder” we are, it stands to reason that we would be much more targeted by the Evil One.

As in every sin, even with the priests who committed those horrible acts, that they are clergy entrusted with the spreading of the Gospel message doesn’t make them immune to sin, rather, it paints a big, fat target on their backs.

Second, I’d address that the morality of the officeholder, when they go astray, doesn’t permanently tarnish the office itself. Take for example the President of the United States. We’ve had some good ones, some awful ones and some inbetween. Yet we should still respect what the country stands for regardless of who is the current leader.
 
For the sake of discussion, let’s say that certain popes had knowledge of such activities and covered them up. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time in the history of the Church that leaders made some bad decisions…
I think if we are going to discuss this, it’s time to make it what is was, and that’s not a bad decision, it’s a purposeful cover-up of horrific crime.

So what’s the answer to the complicity of Popes and Bishops in these cover-ups? Power corrupts. One of the ways that happens is the focus shifts from the original purpose of the organization, to the maintenance of the organization itself. Instead of protecting the souls of the perpetrators or the victims, the face of the Church and the viability of the organization became what was protected.

That’s a terrible thing. And as we have seen, in the end, hasn’t worked out very well. And we’d be naive to think it’s a solved problem. I also agree with those who believe a lot of ignorance and denial played a role. We also had a pedophile sub-culture that was rampant in the Church and there’s no benefit in denying it. But -

The Deposit of Faith, regardless of all the sin of all the Churchmen over time, has been retained over all these centuries. Jesus Christ is still exactly Who the Church says He is, life is still Eternal and miracles still happen.

I say that when talking to someone and doing apologetics, you do not defend people. For all people, including those in high ecclesiastical office, are subject to sin. Instead, Proclaim the Good News. Because the Good News, the best news, is this: All can be saved. Including corrupt churchmen. The Good News about the Church is: we don’t throw people away. The most horrible sinner on earth is welcome and wanted and rejoiced over and can be healed. No one is too sinful to be loved and have perfect joy in God forever.
 
Also, and here is what contributed the most to the problem, priests were favored by their bishops do to their bishops inability to grasp the full horror of what was going on. The bishops thought of the abuse more as sin than as crimes. This was a huge mistake, which in perspective can be understood, but naturally, not tolerated.
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These are excellent points that are so often overlooked. As an incest survivor I can tell you that even in the 70’s, reporting abuse to teachers and other adults could result in being shunned or told to keep those kinds of matters to oneself. It appears that some bishops did what everyone else in the country was doing, swept it under the rug, and hoped for the best, because they did not ‘understand the full horror of what was going on.’

Understanding the long term effects of abuse is something fairly recent, we are learning how to deal with it, and so is the church.
 
These are excellent points that are so often overlooked. As an incest survivor I can tell you that even in the 70’s, reporting abuse to teachers and other adults could result in being shunned or told to keep those kinds of matters to oneself. It appears that some bishops did what everyone else in the country was doing, swept it under the rug, and hoped for the best, because they did not ‘understand the full horror of what was going on.’

Understanding the long term effects of abuse is something fairly recent, we are learning how to deal with it, and so is the church.
Even in recent years I have heard about two cases of the victim being vilified, one involving a priest and the other a teacher.

What I say is this: These evildoers were going against the teachings of the Church, and sin is everywhere, not limited to the Church. Let’s look at the accomplishments of those who *follow *the teachings of the Church.
 
So what’s the answer to the complicity of Popes and Bishops in these cover-ups? Power corrupts.
Which Pope was complicit? While I agree with the others that if they sinned they sinned, but I’ve had a hard time finding a smoking gun versus Pope Benedict especially and Pope John Paul II.
 
What I say is this: These evildoers were going against the teachings of the Church, and sin is everywhere, not limited to the Church. Let’s look at the accomplishments of those who *follow *the teachings of the Church.
I sometimes like to say if my faith was built on a foundation of the personal sins of the Church’s members, then I’d be especially scandalized.
 
What is covering up and what is following the advice of medical professionals. I forget what thread it was on, but someone linked an article which explained that for years the medical community thought pedophiles could be cured and that one way to help reintegrate these “cured” individuals back into the community was to move them to a new community and not mention his past. I hope someone remembers the article or thread I’m talking about and can link it for us, I think it was from Europe or about Europe.
 
What is covering up and what is following the advice of medical professionals. I forget what thread it was on, but someone linked an article which explained that for years the medical community thought pedophiles could be cured and that one way to help reintegrate these “cured” individuals back into the community was to move them to a new community and not mention his past. I hope someone remembers the article or thread I’m talking about and can link it for us, I think it was from Europe or about Europe.
Yes… I’ve read in a book that this was normal practice and belief decades ago.

I honestly believe there were greater complexities to this issue. For one thing contemporary people (maybe helped by 24 hour news channels, reality TV, talk shows like Jerry Springer) desire anyone accused of anything to be paraded before the public.

People in general–contrary to what they say–are very curious and interested in others sexual lives especially as conversation for gossip. People also suspect sex has far more moral and psychological consequences than they like to publicly admit.

One issue a Bishop would have to confront–ethically–is how much light do you bring to a child that has been sexually abused but does not wish it to go public or for his self to become the topic of popular conversation in school and/or community. There is also the privacy issue of the accused whether innocent or guilty.

Take a woman that aborts her child or a woman that spent decades addicted to drugs and in the process lost custody of 3 children (healthy kids) and later gave birth to a crack baby. Do you take other women, at any point, and parade their faces and personal information before the public at large that can never get enough of public spectacles, public lynchings, or simply want to know as much dirt on others as they can?

Combine that with the past notions that with successful completion of therapy a person that has a pedophilia problem (or not pedophilia but is attracted to older teenagers) can arrest his active pedophilia problem.

The there was the time period in which it was believed institutions that helped bring stability and benefit to society, should not expose all dirty laundry before the public, lest the public at large lose faith and further moral decay occurs. It used to be believed that individuals needed institutions, that institutions helped tie up society and communities into something stronger, gave guidance and helped produce good character in people. Institutions like baseball or football programs. Institutions like the Church.

I do think less benevolent concerns influenced one, many, or possibly all Bishops choices to shuffle priests and negotiate legal contracts purchasing the victims and or accusers silence.

The Bishop also has the traditional role of Father and Brother of the priests under their charge. How we understand the roll of father may or may not be consistent with our conceptions of God The Father as a father of us and other humans.

Perhaps I should interject here that for me personally the U.S. Prison system, its existence and purpose to punish, convinced me of the existence of hell. For how can the just among humans justly punish pedophiles or robbers or others and God does not? How can God be less just than them? Therefore, the just atheist that publicly states he hopes the pedophile priest is raped repeatedly in prison has no leg to stand on when attempting to convince me no just God would create a hell when in fact the just on earth create hell for others that violate their laws and become jolly and drunken with joy over it.
 
Well, doesn’t everybody know about it? Hasn’t it been in the news for years? What sort of “cover-up” involves something everybody knows about?
 
the medical community thought pedophiles could be cured and that one way to help reintegrate these “cured” individuals back into the community was to move them to a new community and not mention his past. I hope someone remembers the article or thread I’m talking about and can link it for us, I think it was from Europe or about Europe.
Q. So pedophilia is almost impossible to cure.
A. There’s no cure for pedophilia. There is, however, effective and successful treatment. As with alcoholism, where there are many similarities, we talk about successful treatment but not cures. There’s something about your makeup that makes you vulnerable and you need to pay attention every day to make sure that you don’t, so to speak, fall off the wagon. If you think you’re cured, meaning that this vulnerability is somehow removed, that’s dangerous because you can let down your guard, stop maintaining vigilance, and gradually slip back into old habits. Years back, the Church, very sadly, was misled by mental health professionals. The Church was one of the earliest organizations to recognize that pedophilia existed and to send people for help. Unfortunately, back in the late '40s and '50s, and even the '60s, psychiatrists who didn’t understand what we do now thought that these people could be cured. The Church, after talking to the authorities of the day and believing that these people were going to be safe, put them back into the community. The fault there was not the Church’s. (Sept. 8, 1997)
Frederick S. Berlin, M.D., Ph.D.
Dr. Berlin is Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and Founder of the Sexual Disorders Clinic at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. (Tuscon)

Treatment for pedophilia has changed dramatically since the disorder began appearing in American diagnostic manuals in the 1950s. Early treatment regimes, based on Freud-inspired psychoanalysis, emphasized seeking out the traumatic event that occurred during the patient’s sexual maturation and resolving it. Midcentury psychoanalysts often claimed to have succeeded in curing their patients of urges altogether. Beginning in the 1960s, the Catholic Church itself treated pedophiles at a facility in Jemez Springs, N.M. Afflicted clergy engaged in role-playing and were asked to dramatize their own emotions. At the time, doctors likely told church officials that they had “cured” certain priests and that the offenders could safely return to work. (Slate)
 
Which Pope was complicit? While I agree with the others that if they sinned they sinned, but I’ve had a hard time finding a smoking gun versus Pope Benedict especially and Pope John Paul II.
Other people have made these cases. However much they may have been complicit is not the point. The question is how to answer those who believe in that complicity.
 
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