Defending the Rosary

[Leopard]

…Why would God need to ask for Mary’s assistance?

He doesn’t need to, but He asks anyway. Just as He asks you and me to be his disciples in the world today. He doesn’t need us to pray for each other and perform works of mercy for each other in His name, but He asks us to do this anyway.

 

[snowfly]

How do you explain to someone that we aren’t putting Mary in a higher regard than God by doing ten Hail Marys for each Lord’s Prayer?

Saying Haily Marys is quoting Scripture, the bit at the end was added by the Church.

None of the words are proclaimed by Mary, the first by the Angel sent by God, the second by her cousin Elizabeth, and you know the rest…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

A couple of things to add. The Rosary is a prayer that was requested by Mary in a private revelation. I, personally, believe in that revelation and am happy to say 10 Hail Mary’s per mystery. If a person so chose, they could still meditate on the same mystery’s and say 10 Our Father’s , but it is longer, and because of that, I feel that it would be harder to meditate on the mysteries (because your trying so hard to keep all of the Our Father’s straight). Since meditation on the mysteries is the point of the Rosary, then saying prayers that would take your focus off the mystery would negate your efforts. I think Jesus knows this and that is why He permitted Mary to request the Rosary as it is. There may be some folks who use only Our Fathers and are able to meditate just fine, but I think it would be difficult.

Practically speaking, you could add that the Rosary is a meditative prayer. Each mystery is given a certain amount of time of reflection. The minimum amount of time one should reflect on each mystery is as long as it takes to say 10 Hail Mary’s. The slower you say them, the longer you meditate. If you said 10 Our Fathers, the Rosary might become a prayer that is more for clergy than laity because it would take so very long.

I would also ask if the person disagrees with intercessory prayer, because I think that might be the root of the problem. In no way does a “Hail Mary” elevate Mary to a position higher than God. For heaven’s sake, does he even know what the Hail Mary says versus the Our Father? The first part of the Hail Mary is straight from the Bible (as is the Our Father), the second part of the Hail Mary is a request for prayer. Ask this friend how many times he asks God to pray for him. I’m betting the answer is a big fat zero. So, how does a prayer that asks a person to pray for us, elevate her to godhood?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

It’s amazing how quantatative the human mind can divise the Devine.

Do you have a problem with it, too? “…you’re spending…” instead of, “…we’re spending…”

Why would God need to ask for Mary’s assistance?

He wouldn’t need to ask for Mary’s assistance any more than He needed to create mankind. God doesn’t need anything. The question (for a different thread, of course) should be “why would God desire the assistance of Mary?”

 

[Leopard]

…Practically speaking, you could add that the Rosary is a meditative prayer. Each mystery is given a certain amount of time of reflection. The minimum amount of time one should reflect on each mystery is as long as it takes to say 10 Hail Mary’s. The slower you say them, the longer you meditate. If you said 10 Our Fathers, the Rosary might become a prayer that is more for clergy than laity because it would take so very long…

I don’t think this would be an issue of practicality. At “standard rosary speed”, a Hail Mary takes me about twelve seconds while an Our Father takes me about fourteen seconds. So swapping Our Fathers for Hail Marys on a 5 decade rosary would increase my total time by about a minute and a half, on average.

 

[DebChris]

With the rosary, we pray to God through Mary while meditating on the life of Christ.
Many people have difficulty with the Hail Mary not recognizing that the prayer comes directly from scripture, from the annunciation. They are also unaware of its development as a prayer of the people, unable to spend time reciting the psalms as monks did.
There are ways to make the rosary more Christ centered, to help with focus while meditating on the life of Christ.
After the “Oh my Jesus” prayer, I always pray “Come Holy Spirit. Come by means of the Powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.”
During Cathecist training, I learned to added the following word or phrase after each “…blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus____” to help.

Joyful mysteries:

1. The Annunciation—Incarnate
2. The Visitation—Sanctifying
3. The Nativity–Emmanuel
4. The Presentation–Redeemer
5. Finding Jesus in the Temple–Teaching

Luminous:

1. The Baptism in the Jordan–Baptized
2. The Wedding at Cana–Providing
3. Proclamation of the Gospel–Messiah
4. Transfiguration–Transfigured
5. Institution of the Eucharist–In the Eucharist

Sorrowful:

1. Agony in the Garden–In the Garden
2. The Scourging at the Pillar–Scourged (for our sins)
3. The Crowning of Thorns–King of Kings
4. The Carrying of the Cross–Taking my Cross
5. The Crucifixion–Crucified

Glorious:

1. The Resurrection–Resurrected
2. The Ascension–Lord of Lords
3. The Descent of the Holy Spirit–Indwelling
4. The Assumption of Mary into Heaven–Raising us up
5. The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven–Prince of Peace

As Louis Montefont puts it, “When a sinner prays the rosary, he will give up one or the other.”

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I don’t think this would be an issue of practicality. At “standard rosary speed”, a Hail Mary takes me about twelve seconds while an Our Father takes me about fourteen seconds. So swapping Our Fathers for Hail Marys on a 5 decade rosary would increase my total time by about a minute and a half, on average.

You’re right, I guess. It just seems like the Our Father takes much longer to say than the Hail Mary. But, in reality, it isn’t that much longer.

 

[EphelDuath]

Do you have a problem with it, too?

I was paraphrasing what he says. I pray the Rosary and have no problem with it.

I would assume he has no problem with the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.

 

[Miserissima]

Why would God need to ask for Mary’s assistance?

He’s not. We (those who use this private devotion) are asking God to listen to our petitions, with Mary also speaking on our behalf.

The question (for a different thread, of course) should be “why would God desire the assistance of Mary?”

Because He desired her to cooperate in the Incarnation with her own free will. Please open that thread. I find that a highly interesting topic!

 

[Techno2000]

How do you explain to someone that we aren’t putting Mary in a higher regard than God by doing ten Hail Marys for each Lord’s Prayer?

Tell him because The Blessed Virgin Mary is a “Short Cut” to Heaven

 

[Miserissima]

How do you explain that we aren’t putting Mary in a higher regard than God by doing ten Hail Marys for each Lord’s Prayer?

We pray to Mary more, because we’re asking for her intercession and asking her to intercede on our behalf. It’s different than if we prayed directly to the Father.

These is no “competition” between God and His saints. We pray to God, and we ask the saints for their intercession. We’re not praying to Mary, we’re asking her to intercede on our behalf, at least fifty-three times. Now, we tell God that in addition to our 13 prayers directly to Him in the rosary (at least, counting on the Our Fathers and the Glory Be’s), he’s got at least 53 prayers on our behalf coming His way. The Our Father is 100% scriptural; the Hail Mary is 50% scriptural. The Our Father is a direct prayer to God, the Hail Mary is asking for intercession from her.

Here’s a pretty good analogy: You are 9 and your sister is 15. She is the highly favored daughter, you are loved but you are not as good as she is, You’ve been talking to your sister about this pencil box for a week now. She’s already mentioned it to your father. You’ve talked to your sister about the pencil box for days, until you both go to your father. You’re ready to ask your dad, and your sister joins you for moral support.

You ask your sister to go to Dad and tell him you want/need a new pencil box for school. While you’re in bed, she reminds your dad repeatedly of your need for a new pencil box. She vouches for your sincere intention and she affirms your need. Think of this “sister” as a saint in heaven, or even Mary, before the Throne of Mercy.

Now, your sister can’t get you the pencil box herself because it’s more than what she can afford on her allowance. Same too, as a saint doesn’t have power to “make” something happen. Every miracle that happens through a saint’s intercession comes directly from God’s power, but the saint helped you to ask God.

About the Hail Mary itself:

One deciding not to recite the Hail Mary “because its repetitive” is like deciding that if one has read the bible once, one cannot read it again, or recite a scripture passage – especially in prayer – because it would be vain repetition!

The Hail Mary is a two part prayer: the first part is prayer directly from the bible and the second part is based on scriptural precepts: such as the communion of saints. Let’s look at what we say, and why:

The first half of the Hail Mary is taken directly from scripture. In repeating it, it’s like reciting the two fundamental bible passages about Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)

The directly scriptural part of the prayer explains why we are saying it:

• We repeat the words as in a conversation to Mary, getting her attention.
• We are reaffirming the specific scriptures on which the doctrine of Mary is built (i.e. full of grace meant that she was born w/out original sin), and therefore she is a powerful intercessor, and worth to ask for her aid in our petition.
• We are using scripture to announce why we’re going to ask for her intercession in the next sentence, because as the Mother of Jesus, she must have more “sway.”

[continued]

 

[Miserissima]

*“Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.” *

The second part of the prayer asks for May’s intercession, which gets into communion of the saints. (There’s plenty of resources on that in the archives about the Communion of Saints. catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp) Every time we ask a saint to intercede for us, we’re asking them to pray on our behalf: we are not asking for them to exercise their own power.

And how much more valuable are the intercessions of the saints in Heaven? There’s a parable Jesus told about repetitive petition in Luke 18:1-8 (Douay):

And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint, saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God, nor regarded man. And there was a certain widow in that city, and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary. And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God, nor regard man, yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me. And the Lord said: Hear what the unjust judge saith. And will not God revenge his elect who cry to him day and night: and will he have patience in their regard? I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

In Jesus’ explanation, he is essentially saying: if an unjust judge will see justice done to those who annoy him with petitions? How much more will God, who is a just judge, see justice done to those who call on him? And especially if we have someone in Heaven, such as Mary, vouching for our intentions?

So:

1. We’re not praying to her, but asking for her intercession on our behalf.
2. Our repetitive petition proves our sincerity in asking, like the widow before the unjust judge.
3. We have confidence that she has the father’s ear to intercede on our behalf.

Ultimately, the concluding prayer of the rosary offers the entire prayer to God, the petitions to Mary and the meditations directly on the life of Christ in the Mysteries:

*"O God, whose only begotten Son, *
*by his life, death and resurrection, has purchased for us the blessings of eternal life, *
*grant we beseech thee, *
*that by meditating on the mysteries of the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, *
*we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, *
through Christ our Lord. Amen."

 

[EphelDuath]

Miserissima: that’s pretty much the best argument I’ve heard yet, the pencil box analogy. I’ll see what my friend says to that.

 

[Miserissima]

Miserissima: that’s pretty much the best argument I’ve heard yet, the pencil box analogy. I’ll see what my friend says to that.

I didn’t mean to ramble like that – sometimes I get started on these posts and my brain won’t “shut off.” Thank you so much, and let us know if it helps!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

An EXCELLENT book on the topic (if your friend is a reader) is Rosary: Mystery, Meditation and the Telling of the Beads. I highly recommend it to anyone and everyone remotely interested in learning more about the Rosary.

 

[Clem_Jones]

Maybe you could tell your friend that one “Our Father” is all that’s needed… like it’s equal to ten “Hail Mary”'s in efficacy.

I’m being cheeky, I know. But as someone who just fell in love with my Mother recently, I understand the barriers to the Rosary. The only way I learned to trust Mary as my Mother was to pray the Rosary myself – a lot! And the only reason I started doing it in the first place was because I put my trust in the wisdom of the Mother Church… I don’t know if you can accomplish one without the other.

And that may be your friend’s fundamental problem.

 

[marymol]

Coming soon to the 90th Anniv. of The Miracle of the sun in Fatima (Oct. 13th) where our Bl. Mother specifically asks for the prayers of the rosary,it is good to see this subject brought up often and the relevant responses.

Our Lord asks us to say the our Father and we do so in the Rosary …

There also are many , in the slavery of sin, who call on a father from below … or do not call on The Father at all…

The people in The Church , who are privileged with the responsibility as the glorious priesthood ot The Lord , have to make that role as effective as possible , interceding for those who esp. need it .

Having our Bl.Mother joining us , help those numbers (of the Our Father) to be more like exponential , than in the percieved ratio…

The Father had willed to send The Mother - to remind us to turn to Him, to do His Will and thus be freed from the tyranny of forces set against Him… and Rosary to be a powerful aid in same …

May it help many to produce fruit that endures , through perseverance …

 

[Eileen_T]

How long does it take you to pray the Rosary?

It takes me 20 - 35 minutes depending on the amount of meditation I do. As well as morning and evening prayers, Bible reading and a Divine Mercy Chaplet at 3pm, praying the Rosary adds a significant chunk of time where our heart, mind and soul is directed to Almighty God.

Add to that reflecting back to the various Mysteries during the remainder of the day.

Does your friend devote 20 - 30 minutes, every day, to meditation of the Life of Jesus, quite apart from any Scripture Study he does?

 

[Zooey]

This person’s response to that would then be, “so why not ten Lord’s Prayers, then a single Hail Mary for each decade?”

The ten hail Mary’s during the Mysteries are not the focus of our meditation !! We are not meditating on Mary 10 times as much as meditating on God. True, we mean the words of the Hail Mary, but during the 10 Hail Mary’s of the mystery, we are thinking about the biblical mystery at hand, not the words of the Hail Mary. The 10 Hail Mary’s are kind of a beautiful musical background chant so as to focus our minds on the Mysteries.
Even St. Louis De Montfort said so in his book The Secret of The Rosary.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

He’s still not convinced. Is there anything else I could say to him so that he would understand the significance of the Rosary?

You know, some people are never going to “get it”. I find that very sad, but not every devotion is for every person…even something as wonderful as the rosary.
But I have to agree that, if I am meditating on the mysteries, that the HMs become “background music”…They only come to the fore, when I lose my concentration. Then they also lead me back into the heart of the rosary prayer again.

 

[Miserissima]

You know, some people are never going to “get it”. I find that very sad, but not every devotion is for every person…even something as wonderful as the rosary.

You’re so right. Private devotions are not required by the faith, and I forget that sometimes.

In school, I grew up with saying the rosary after lunchtime, and have to tell you a secret: I find the rosary more intense, personal, and enjoyable than the Divine Mercy Chaplet. I rarely ever say the DMC, unless I’m following along with a group of folks.