Defending Traditional Marriage Without Alienating?

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I think that’s the best approach.
That is an awesome response, thank you for sharing it.
This is a good approach.
Sounds like excellent reasons, MarcoPolo. Glad she respected it, anyway, although she wasn’t convinced. Will have to try it.
Thanks, all you’s! :o
I take no credit for coming up with that, I’m sure I heard versions of it somewhere. Maybe somewhere along the lines of trying to claim you have “power” by putting together two prong ends of an electric plug, or pressing two outlets together, neither of which produce power. Power does not “exist” in such unions.
 
I think that’s the best approach. It’s not because we think it’s “icky” It’s not because we want to oppress those we disagree with. It’s about what marriage is. Marriage really is something and that definition is completely independent of us. We really need to take the positive approach of articulating what marriage is rather than simply condemning homosexuality.

If we can get the same-sex marriage advocates to at least respect our reasoning instead of assuming we’re homophobic bigots, we would move forward by leaps and bounds.
You make a good point about the positive aspect of what marriage IS, Joe, and not simply condemning homosexuality. Definitely don’t want to come across as a bigot in any way, but many of the pro-same sex marriage folks automatically assume we are if we don’t agree with them. And some don’t even listen at all to any kind of logic…
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
I believe the greatest good definition of marriage is one man and one women before God; until death do they part. If they are to have children together then they are the natural parents, and should also have the greatest love for each other and their children. A family benefits from the help of grandparents, and other relations, this is at the heart of community.

Blessings

Eric
 
I think it depends on the person you’re speaking to. Some people truly want to have a real discussion. Others just want their position accepted and if it’s not, you’re considered intolerant.

Catholic Answers puts out a great booklet called “Why Homosexual Unions Are Not Marriage.” You can download it for .99 or purchase a paper copy for $1.

I highly recommend it.
 
I have to disagree with regards to the word “homosexuality”. The Bible forbids behaviors, not orientation. The Church recognizes that the particular orientation does exist, rather than just a temptation towards a behavior. It is appropriate to have differing words for the two.

As nearly as I can tell, the Greeks and the Romans were in some eras permissive of the *behaviors *in males–that is, they permitted those behaviors forbidden in the Bible–but were not accepting of the orientation, which they thought betrayed a shameful lack of masculinity, something not acceptable in a full-grown man. Among the Greeks, formal male-male relationships ended when the young man turned 17. These were held to be mentoring in nature, and nothing like a marriage.

Other than a few Roman higher ups who took liberties for themselves that were not widely approved of, the Greeks and Romans did not ever equate same-sex relationships with marriage, even long-standing domestic homosexual relationships, which did exist. Nero may have pretended he couldn’t tell a boy from a girl, but apparently this was not a form of delusion that was ever widespread in the ancient world.
Thus, I you understand well, The fact of talking of homosexuality, in link with the realistic and objective philosophy, is okay (no problem), but the fact of writing or of talking in using the words " a homosexual" or " a heterosexual " would be wrong, as per se we are only male and female.

The fact of saying " I am a homosexual", in the objective and realistic philosophy, has no sense???

The fact of saying " I am a heterosexual ", in the objective and realistic philosophy, has no sense!!!

But the words " homosexual orientation" or “heterosexual orientation” is okay, in the objective and realistic philosophy???
 
if you don’t endorse same-sex marriage you must be horribly prejudiced against homosexuals
This is a tough one. I am dealing right now with someone who holds that view, but I suspect her outlook is colored by the fact that one of her school friends was bullied on account of effeminate behavior. In this case I’ve had to move from specific discussions of homosexuality to the more general issue of how we are to treat each other, and then make the connection to how people are hurt by the abuse of their sexuality.
 
One thing I would try to remember is what it sounds like to a homosexual person in a relationship. These people believe that they are living in true, valid family structures. Imagine for a few minutes that you were living with your wife/husband, perhaps had a few kids. Then someone tells you that, not only are you not really married or a family, it’s impossible for you to be married and you shouldn’t be in a relationship.

Essentially, the advocate of gay marriage is going to, in their view, see opposition to gay marriage as a desire to break up legitimate family units and prevent new ones from being formed. I think most people in that situation would react with some hurt and anger. It’s worth thinking about and understanding.
 
I was much more supportive of the idea of same gender marriage before I had children. Once I had them, it became painfully obvious that children need a mother and father, and neither is disposable. You could try it from this angle. Marriage is the cornerstone of family.

The most powerful moment came when my son was 18 months old. My husband, bless is heart, is a very good father, but doesn’t relate well to babies/toddlers. He likes them at least 4 o 5, and then his relationship with our children really took off and solidified. So up to this point, my son and been raised mostly by me and his nanny, and was very deeply attached to both of us, not as much to my husband at that point. We joked all the time about him having “two mommies”, and I jokingly introduced our nanny as my “wife”, as she took care of my household for me when I worked. (nothing kinky going on, I promise). One Saturday, when my husband and I were both off, and working around the house, I noticed my son following my husband around, studying him intently, mimicking his every move, in a way he never imitated myself or his nanny. This went on for hours. Somehow his tiny person just understood that this was a man, and that he would be a man, and this was who he would emulate… a behavior that continues at age 9. It became overpoweringly obvious that as adored as he was by his mama and nanny, we could not take the place of a father. God has definite plans.

and let me hasten to mention his effect on our daughter is no less powerful. Good self esteem, not turning to undesirable boys for attention, grounded and confident.
 
I was much more supportive of the idea of same gender marriage before I had children. Once I had them, it became painfully obvious that children need a mother and father, and neither is disposable. You could try it from this angle. Marriage is the cornerstone of family.

The most powerful moment came when my son was 18 months old. My husband, bless is heart, is a very good father, but doesn’t relate well to babies/toddlers. He likes them at least 4 o 5, and then his relationship with our children really took off and solidified. So up to this point, my son and been raised mostly by me and his nanny, and was very deeply attached to both of us, not as much to my husband at that point. We joked all the time about him having “two mommies”, and I jokingly introduced our nanny as my “wife”, as she took care of my household for me when I worked. (nothing kinky going on, I promise). One Saturday, when my husband and I were both off, and working around the house, I noticed my son following my husband around, studying him intently, mimicking his every move, in a way he never imitated myself or his nanny. This went on for hours. Somehow his tiny person just understood that this was a man, and that he would be a man, and this was who he would emulate… a behavior that continues at age 9. It became overpoweringly obvious that as adored as he was by his mama and nanny, we could not take the place of a father. God has definite plans.

and let me hasten to mention his effect on our daughter is no less powerful. Good self esteem, not turning to undesirable boys for attention, grounded and confident.
You are right; marriage between man and woman is the cornerstone of family. Children need a mom and a dad. And family is the cornerstone of civilization. This has been intuitively obvious since the dawn of civilization. We endanger all of our society when we try to make family into something it is not.
 
The thing about same gender marriage is that it isn’t always obvious who is being hurt by it. People see gay couples, with well tended, loved children, and it is hard to imagine the children are being deprived of something they need. Sometimes one has to look to one’s own family, and take a serious look of the roles of both parents to make the connection.

It also helps not just to look at same gender marriage as a separate issue, but as part of the entire marriage issue… Marriages in general are down, with the result more and more children being raised without fathers. Divorces are still unacceptably high. The whole family unit is degrading. Don’t point the finger solely at same gender marriage…only part of a bigger problem.

nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html?pagewanted=all
 
The thing about same gender marriage is that it isn’t always obvious who is being hurt by it. People see gay couples, with well tended, loved children, and it is hard to imagine the children are being deprived of something they need. Sometimes one has to look to one’s own family, and take a serious look of the roles of both parents to make the connection.

It also helps not just to look at same gender marriage as a separate issue, but as part of the entire marriage issue… Marriages in general are down, with the result more and more children being raised without fathers. Divorces are still unacceptably high. The whole family unit is degrading. Don’t point the finger solely at same gender marriage…only part of a bigger problem.

nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/for-women-under-30-most-births-occur-outside-marriage.html?pagewanted=all
It is part of a bigger problem. The book “Family and Civilization” traced out the historical types of family structures and what happens to the underlying civilizations when family structure gets out of whack. Even back then (the 1940’s) he foresaw that family structure was disintegating–from a predominantly ‘domestic family’ structure–into atomism, and predicted the results would not be good.
 
This defense of traditional marriage issue is really our fault. My fault. The fault of those who believe in it, but whose joy in marriage may not be all it could be.

Marriage should be a great lifelong interior struggle with God and our spouse, to move toward holiness and great love. Love that overflows into family life, extended family life.

Imagine a Thanksgiving meal…where the joy and the generosity of living married life to the full (to the point of full self-donation) is naturally apparent to all the nephews and nieces approaching marriageable age. They would sense the love of the family.

Rather than making a bunch of tight intellectual arguments about the value of traditional families (which we need to be prepared for anyway) we also live our marriages like our eternal life depends on it (they do).

I think we can best defend married life…by naturally and sincerely living it heroically…so the neighbors over the years can sense this overflow of the Holy Spirit…their kids will wonder…they will know by ‘osmosis’…about that family which seemed to live a bright and cheerful life. The door was open, the house was cheerful, warm, welcoming, fun, honest, substantial, true, and good, and always generous. And one-by-one people will see such a traditional family as being the place where the greatest happiness is engendered.

It takes great work…we have to help each other do this…our Parish pastor can’t be shouldered with merely defending the traditional family from the homily every few months for 7 minutes. No…it’s my job and our job. It would be real nice if we could just write an article, or have a debate, and have the family totally defended.

But that’s not God’s way, I don’t think. I think He wants us to love our way, give our way toward a return to the traditional family.

Sour, glum, selfish, petulant marriages do as much to damage to the case for “traditional families” as rainbow colored protest marches, probably more.
 
Does anyone have suggestions on how to defend traditional marriage between one man and one woman without thoroughly alienating all those who are defending the right of homosexuals to marry? It feels like there must be a caring way to do this. Seems like so many in society (even some Catholics!) believe that if you don’t endorse same-sex marriage you must be horribly prejudiced against homosexuals - and perhaps even other races/creeds as well. I don’t feel that’s true at all. I strive to love my neighbor and avoid prejudice in any form, but I cannot condone same-sex marriage. This has become a difficult issue for discussion among my friends, and even some relatives.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, especially in this charged political climate leading up to November! Thanks.
They don’t seem too concerned about alienating you with their views, perhaps they are not as good of friends or relatives as you believe.
 
I believe the greatest good definition of marriage is one man and one women before God; until death do they part. If they are to have children together then they are the natural parents, and should also have the greatest love for each other and their children. A family benefits from the help of grandparents, and other relations, this is at the heart of community.

Blessings

Eric
so true. thanks, Eric.
 
Does anyone have suggestions on how to defend traditional marriage between one man and one woman without thoroughly alienating all those who are defending the right of homosexuals to marry? It feels like there must be a caring way to do this. Seems like so many in society (even some Catholics!) believe that if you don’t endorse same-sex marriage you must be horribly prejudiced against homosexuals - and perhaps even other races/creeds as well. I don’t feel that’s true at all. I strive to love my neighbor and avoid prejudice in any form, but I cannot condone same-sex marriage. This has become a difficult issue for discussion among my friends, and even some relatives.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, especially in this charged political climate leading up to November! Thanks.
It’s very possible that nothing you do (short of surrendering and agreeing with them) will prevent alienation. As long as we’re not being outrightly obnoxious, I think we have to stop worrying about walking on eggshells. Remember, even Jesus alienated people when he said that we must eat His Body and drink His Blood, and He said that He came to cause division, setting family members against each other - not that He wanted to do so on purpose, but that the nature of what He stood for and did and would require of us would cause division.

That being said, the approach on same-sex marriage I take is the natural law approach. I don’t know if it was said on another thread here at CAF or at another forum, but “the parts don’t fit”.
 
“I have no rights to say what you do in your bedroom but that means you have no rights to say what I do in my church.”

There is no argument that wins really. The law is on their side the best you can do is point out the hypocrisy of removing your catholic rights by telling them to take their marriage elsewhere.
 
I think it depends on the person you’re speaking to. Some people truly want to have a real discussion. Others just want their position accepted and if it’s not, you’re considered intolerant.

Catholic Answers puts out a great booklet called “Why Homosexual Unions Are Not Marriage.” You can download it for .99 or purchase a paper copy for $1.

I highly recommend it.
Thanks so much for that info, KCT. I wasn’t aware of it. You’re right - some do want a real discourse; others just consider those with differing viewpoints prejudiced right off the bat. Sad, really.
God bless.
 
I was much more supportive of the idea of same gender marriage before I had children. Once I had them, it became painfully obvious that children need a mother and father, and neither is disposable. You could try it from this angle. Marriage is the cornerstone of family.

The most powerful moment came when my son was 18 months old. My husband, bless is heart, is a very good father, but doesn’t relate well to babies/toddlers. He likes them at least 4 o 5, and then his relationship with our children really took off and solidified. So up to this point, my son and been raised mostly by me and his nanny, and was very deeply attached to both of us, not as much to my husband at that point. We joked all the time about him having “two mommies”, and I jokingly introduced our nanny as my “wife”, as she took care of my household for me when I worked. (nothing kinky going on, I promise). One Saturday, when my husband and I were both off, and working around the house, I noticed my son following my husband around, studying him intently, mimicking his every move, in a way he never imitated myself or his nanny. This went on for hours. Somehow his tiny person just understood that this was a man, and that he would be a man, and this was who he would emulate… a behavior that continues at age 9. It became overpoweringly obvious that as adored as he was by his mama and nanny, we could not take the place of a father. God has definite plans.

and let me hasten to mention his effect on our daughter is no less powerful. Good self esteem, not turning to undesirable boys for attention, grounded and confident.
Excellent points to think about. Marriage really is the cornerstone of the family. Thanks, Gwendolen. God bless you and your family!
 
I think the only way is to avoid the topic of homosexuality as much as possible, and to keep one’s opinion to oneself. If given the chance to vote on it, then vote your conscience. But the fact is, the subject is always going to alienate people. Always! I’m a gay man who hopes some day to find the right guy to marry and spend my life with – and even reading your post hurt me, even though you put it rather delicately.

I understand how people such as yourself feel about the issue, but no matter how it’s put, I feel that what’s really being said is that you want me to be alone and miserable for the rest of my life simply because you don’t agree with who I love. I know there are so many levels to the issue, but honestly, that’s all I hear. That’s why it’s alienating and hurtful – not because you intend to be hurtful, but because when two people are in love, any suggestion that their love is somehow “less than” or “not as valid” as yours seriously hurts.

And the suggestion made earlier about children needing a mother and father hurts children. It hurts the children of gay and lesbian parents, it hurts the children of divorced parents, it’s hurts the children of deceased parents. If you truly care about children, then don’t hurt them with your opinion of their family.
 
I think that it is worthwhile to acknowledge the legitimate sorts of things that adults taking care of each other might need and that society as a whole might benefit from granting them * even if they were not having a sexual relationship*. IOW, we would not have any problem if secular society essentially made it possible to establish independent monastic communities, even just between two people. If you are willing to do that, then you are going to knock the legs off of all the arguments in favor of “gay marriage”.

When you have established that you’re not hostile to the idea that people other than married couples might have reason to share health insurance, give each other property and inheritance rights, keep up a common household, and so on, it is easier to take the position that defends marriage as an institution that is particular to the unique relationship between heterosexual couples.

Then I have pointed out that it is a bit rich when homosexuals argue that they are being discriminated against for not being given something when they don’t want the same thing to apply to couples who *don’t *have a sexual relationship, which is what happened here in Oregon during one of the debates over civil union! That just proved to me that the whole gay marriage push is in actuality an effort to deny that there any difference between gay sex and straight sex. Once you point out that adults can care for each other for a lifetime and accomplish common goals together for a lifetime without ever having sex with each other, while sexual partners can have sex with the express intention of never seeing each other again, that is a mighty thick pair of blinders to pretend to wear.

If a person claims that they cannot differentiate in any meaningful way between gay sex and straight sex, then trust me, that person is going to be very hard-pressed to say why on earth society at large has any interest at all in whether or not couples have a sexual relationship or not. If sex is totally divorced from the remotest possibility of mutual fecundity–remember, even from a secular view, a couple doesn’t have to have sex with each other in order to employ a surrogate or to have one of them inseminated by someone else!–then sex becomes an entirely private matter. There is really no getting around that. Take the possibility of reproduction out of the definition of marriage, and there is no reason sex needs to be part of the definition, either. Civil society doesn’t have the least bit of a dog in that fight, not if it means* excluding* people who are taking care of each other but choose not to have a sexual relationship. That would be discriminatory.

On that account, I think it would be the best if any definition of marriage that doesn’t have the possibility of reproduction as its raison d’être must also be pushed to its logical end, which is to take sex out of the definition entirely. If a lifelong mutual commitment to one’s biological family is not the reason for marriage, it would be unnecessarily prejudicial to involve sex at all, because marriage would become an institution of mutual care. Mutual care does not require sex. Therefore, either marriage ought to be heterosexual, or else civil marriage ought not be sexual at all. In that case, it seems reasonable to call it what it is, which is a civil union or a domestic partnership.

That may be the way we are forced to go: That is, to accept that civil society might substitute legal contracts that have nothing to do with fecundity for the concept of marriage. As long as society doesn’t enshrine obvious logical fallacies into law, such as a definition of “marriage” that recognizes none of the obvious differences between gays and straights, it may be that this cannot be helped.
I couldn’t say it better myself.
 
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