Defending when Christmas is celebrated

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I didn’t know how to respond to her except to say that even if what she says is true, it is an historical fact that Jesus was born, lived, and was crucified and died to redeem mankind from sin. When we celebrate his birth is not important, but that the Church must have a good reason for doing celebrating it when it does.

Just curious how Catholicism answers questions as why Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25 instead of some day in the spring.
It is a historical fact that Jehova’s witnesses have a long history of many false prophecies. If you have a family member that is a committed Jehovah’s witness you are in a tough spot. They have a resoluteness and devotion to their institution that is enviable and I would think surpasses that of most other religious groups, even Catholics. I don’t know that you’ll have much luck influencing them on this issue but others have given good information on why December 25th.

I’d say for Catholics ultimately the reason why Christmas is celebrated on Dec. 25 is the Church says so. A Witness shouldn’t have a problem with that in principle since they have a similar attitude towards the Watchtower Society. One thing the Witnesses have right is that there is a binding authority on Christians. That true authority says we as the faithful come together on a particular day to celebrate the Incarnation. This is an example in accord with St. Paul’s extortion that we be of one mind. To be so we need an authority. The Witnesses are right about authority but wrong about where it is. If you take away authority then there really isn’t any reason to celebrate the Incarnation on Dec. 25 other then custom which is of limited influence especially in our day.
 
Hi!
…I am following the post; my understanding of pagan is those who believe in multiple gods as well as those who do not believe in god–this term would also include those of hedonistic values/practices
Well, that certainly describes the celebration of modern day ‘Christmas’, for the most part, its a celebration of greed on an epic scale.

I get a sick feeling in my stomach every time I go into a big retail store this time of year.
 
They are wrong. By using the Julian Calendar does not make December 25 fall on January 7. I was hoping you would pick up the difference in LENGTHS of the year. There is a .002% CORRECTION to the Julian Calendar. Nothing else. (I did state 365.2525 compared to 365.25, which should have read 365.2425 and 365.2422 as the length of the year).

Calendar introduced in the 1500, East has always regarded January 7 even prior to the 1500s which is the point where there would be a minor divergence. January 7 is regarded as the date of the epiphany to the Magi. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Calendar systems at all.
 
They are wrong. By using the Julian Calendar does not make December 25 fall on January 7. I was hoping you would pick up the difference in LENGTHS of the year. There is a .002% CORRECTION to the Julian Calendar. Nothing else. (I did state 365.2525 compared to 365.25, which should have read 365.2425 and 365.2422 as the length of the year).

Calendar introduced in the 1500, East has always regarded January 7 even prior to the 1500s which is the point where there would be a minor divergence. January 7 is regarded as the date of the epiphany to the Magi. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Calendar systems at all.
Here is a calendar converter calculator which anyone can use. Put in the date on the Julian calendar icon, press calculate, and the corresponding date on the Gregorian calendar icon will appear. And vice versa. From this calendar converter, todays date of December 9, 2016 in the Gregorian calendar is seen to be november 26 in the Julian calendar. Similarly, December 25, 2016, on the Julian calendar is seen to be January 7, 2017 in the Gregorian calendar.
You can also scroll down and check todays date or some other dates on other calendars, such as the Islamic calendar, the Hebrew calendar, etc.
For people interested to see that December 25 on Julian calendar is January 7 on the Gregorian calendar please go to the Calendar converter calculator:
fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
 
Here is a calendar converter calculator which anyone can use. Put in the date on the Julian calendar icon, press calculate, and the corresponding date on the Gregorian calendar icon will appear. And vice versa. From this calendar converter, todays date of December 9, 2016 in the Gregorian calendar is seen to be november 26 in the Julian calendar. Similarly, December 25, 2016, on the Julian calendar is seen to be January 7, 2017 in the Gregorian calendar.
You can also scroll down and check todays date or some other dates on other calendars, such as the Islamic calendar, the Hebrew calendar, etc.
For people interested to see that December 25 on Julian calendar is January 7 on the Gregorian calendar please go to the Calendar converter calculator:
fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/
Apologies everyone and especially Tomdstone. I neglected to account for the date shift of 10 days at the time of the introduction of the Gregorian calendar. Where 10 days disappeared. And while the East did celebrate Christmas as the time of the epiphany, they appear to have changed that at some point but I don’t know when.

Still according to my calculations of 1 day difference every 133.3333 years that would put us 15 days different not 13.
 
Well, that certainly describes the celebration of modern day ‘Christmas’, for the most part, its a celebration of greed on an epic scale.

I get a sick feeling in my stomach every time I go into a big retail store this time of year.
Hi, Mike!

…yeah; it is perplexing how people rejected “Christmas” and embraced commercialism… as a kid walking about my neighborhood it was a wonderful experience… the cold fresh wind hitting my face and finding a kind and loving smile in the faces of those I met and greeted as we wish “Merry Christmas!” to one another… even people who never went to Church felt the need to join in on that Merry Christ-Feeling!

…then darkness and envy crept into our society… today we see only blank and scared expressions on the faces of those we encounter… only the very old seem to want to convey that Christmas Feeling… but they are apprehensive of strangers–not wanting to be seen as soft targets…

…when we push God out of our societies… the prince of the world begins to reign!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, Mike!

…yeah; it is perplexing how people rejected “Christmas” and embraced commercialism… as a kid walking about my neighborhood it was a wonderful experience… the cold fresh wind hitting my face and finding a kind and loving smile in the faces of those I met and greeted as we wish “Merry Christmas!” to one another… even people who never went to Church felt the need to join in on that Merry Christ-Feeling!

…then darkness and envy crept into our society… today we see only blank and scared expressions on the faces of those we encounter… only the very old seem to want to convey that Christmas Feeling… but they are apprehensive of strangers–not wanting to be seen as soft targets…

…when we push God out of our societies… the prince of the world begins to reign!

Maran atha!

Angel
Yep, if ‘christmas’ did not involve gifts, Id be curious to see if it would be as popular as it is. Recently a Walmart store tried to stop one of their greeters from saying “God bless you”, but they go to great lengths to celebrate a holiday that has ‘Christ’ in the name…?! LOL

I do not think many people realize how blasphemous this is.
 
Yep, if ‘christmas’ did not involve gifts, Id be curious to see if it would be as popular as it is. Recently a Walmart store tried to stop one of their greeters from saying “God bless you”, but they go to great lengths to celebrate a holiday that has ‘Christ’ in the name…?! LOL

I do not think many people realize how blasphemous this is.
Hi, Mike!

…the culture (world) has changed… this development has its roots in past centuries but has taken full effect in modern times… if we look at the US early television we would find that most movies and programs where geared towards hope and Christian values

As with other art mediums, it became corrupted with visions of evil and liberalism (in the vein of libertine); the culture was changed because, as the devil, those in places of influence sought to gain power by providing that which is desired by the Flesh… so evil and unrighteousness has been placed on a pedestal and good and righteousness relegated to antiquity and regarded as ignorance.

The Love for money is the new golden calf–those who do not have the money are conjoined vicariously through material possession: buy/spend more–make your heart glad.

Sadly, God is far from their mind, thoughts, and goals.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
We aren’t celebrating December 25. We are celebrating the Incarnation.

As such, it really doesn’t matter whether Jesus was actually born on December 25, in the Spring, or on Leap Year. 🙂

What matters is that He was the Word Made Flesh, and dwelt among us.

And to celebrate that, we had to pick a day. 🙂

See my blog post on this: threeminuteapologetics.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-do-catholics-celebrate-christmas-on.html
Hi, PR!

…I fully concur!

…I think that the JW’s rejection of Christmas goes to their reinvented theology where Christ is not accepted as Divine; hence, they seek to remove the value of Celebrating His Birth because it Celebrates the Incarnation of the Word–Who was with God and was God from the Beginning!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Thanks to all who replied to this thread. I have benefited and learned a lot from your responses. The JW arguments about Christmas are like water off a duck’s back to me at this point. They have no effect.
 
Hi, PR!

…I fully concur!

…I think that the JW’s rejection of Christmas goes to their reinvented theology where Christ is not accepted as Divine; hence, they seek to remove the value of Celebrating His Birth because it Celebrates the Incarnation of the Word–Who was with God and was God from the Beginning!

Maran atha!

Angel
Exactly! Thanks Angel and everyone else who has contributed to this topic.
 
I come from a large family and have a sister who became a Jehovah’s Witness after marrying one. She claims that Christians who celebrate Christmas on Dec 25 are inaccurate and that Christmas was founded near a pagan holiday (Winter Solstice) and Christmas trees have pagan roots, no pun intended.

She claims that Jesus was most likely born in the spring. Her faith doesn’t even celebrate Christmas and just calls it “December 25th”. I especially feel sorry for her kids. For them it’s just another day.

I didn’t know how to respond to her except to say that even if what she says is true, it is an historical fact that Jesus was born, lived, and was crucified and died to redeem mankind from sin. When we celebrate his birth is not important, but that the Church must have a good reason for doing celebrating it when it does.

Just curious how Catholicism answers questions as why Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25 instead of some day in the spring.

Also, if you have any other material on this subject I would appreciate it as it relates to Christmas and dealing with Jehovah’s Witness objections to it.

Much appreciated.
Sorry Tommy for being late to the party.

Yes, Jesus was more likely born in spring or summer. Romans are very practical people and most likely would have organised the census (Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem because of census requirements) in spring/summer when days are longer and warmer.

And yes, it is likely the Church chose the unknown-dated Christmas to be 25 Dec in order to Christianise a pagan festival. At that time, there was in Rome a week-long festival of Saturnalia to celebrate the winter solistice from 17-23 Dec. The festival was very popular among Romans and culminated on 23 Dec as the Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun, from which day the days gets longer - it got shorter and shorter but never got diminished and was reborn to get longer from that day onwards.

On the basis of 'if you can’t beat them, join ‘em’ basis, I guess, the Church in her wisdom chose not to fight a popular week-long revelry and chose instead to impart a Christian understanding to all those symbols. So Christmas was 25 Dec in Rome from at least early third century onwards.

It was easy for the ‘Unconquerable Sun’ to become the sacrificed saviour that death could not conquer. Saturnalia’s gift-giving morphed into Christian charity and gift-giving inspired by St Nicholas’ gifts to the three peasant girls.

The pagan laurel evergreen used to symbolise the undying Sun came to symbolise the saviour whom death could not conquer. The evergreen’s symbolism later found its way into the Advent wreath, which itself was a pre-Christian Germanic symbolism - the eternity of the circle became a symbol of the eternal Jesus without beginning and end, another way of saying alpha & omega I guess.

Also, New Year’s day in those days was 25 March, the spring equinox (it is very strange to us, as it will be 24 March 2015 and then the next day is 25 March 2016). Christian symbolism would mean that 25 March becomes the start of a new era and so it became the date when the saviour of the world was conceived - the Annunciation. And 9 months later the birth of the saviour takes place on 25 Dec.

[Sorry for the non-American dating method but sometimes the rest of the world would like to declare our independence from Americanism :D:D]

In the end, it is an issue anyway?

No, as it just shows what Catholicism and Christianity is all about. Being a universal religion, it is adaptable to local practices and draws its heritage from the common inheritance of human society in all forms the way God created us. What is important is not so much whether the symbolism is Christian or pagan in origin but what what do we have in our mind today when we hold the symbol or perform the act in question.

I am an ethnic Chinese and in Asia, the Catholic Church has no issue with ethnic Chinese praying with joss-sticks like those Chinese do in Buddhist & Taoist temples. We just have to make sure that we do not pray to our ancestors but are praying for them and paying them our respects. The joss-stick is not religious in nature, but deemed by the Church to be cultural.

The Church calls this inculturation and this is what makes me proud to be Catholic. Being Catholic means people coming together from different backgrounds, different languages, different cultures but bound in one faith. This is a lot more apparent to non-white Catholics who live outside the Europeanised world. Those Jehovah Witnesses and Evangelical Christians (and indeed fundamentalist Catholics) have only burnt their rich heritage when they insist on only a Christian history for everything they do.

One last thing - looking at the current commercialisation of Christmas, one priestly friend of mine remarked that it does look like the pagans have reclaimed Christmas. I think he does have something for us to think about.
 
I come from a large family and have a sister who became a Jehovah’s Witness after marrying one. She claims that Christians who celebrate Christmas on Dec 25 are inaccurate and that Christmas was founded near a pagan holiday (Winter Solstice) and Christmas trees have pagan roots, no pun intended.
Tommy, it is also should be remembered that Jehovah Witnesses’ objections are not about Christmas per se but rather about Jesus himself. Anything that exalts Jesus into the position of equal divinity with God the Father is not consistent with JW theology. JW do not believe that Jesus is divine in the same way that God the Father was - they believe that Jesus was a creation of God the Father. So, in a way, they are modern-day Gnostics, the same heretics to whom John directed the Gospel that he wrote. Hence you will see all attempts to diminish the stature of Jesus and I see the denial of Christmas in the same way.

And yes, Christmas tree has pagan roots. The evergreen on the Christmas tree has the same obvious symbolism for a pagan winter solstice that got Christianised in the same way.

But again, it is what we have in mind when we look at the Christmas tree today that counts, not its origins. Let’s take a look at what we call Christmas tree colours - green, red and yellow. Looked at with Christian faith, Green is the Lord Saviour whom death could not conquer, Red is the blood that was spilled for our salvation, and Yellow is the gold given for a kingly baby.

So when you look at the very familiar and over-hackneyed Christmas tree, what do you see? I see a king, who humbled himself to be sacrificed for my sins, but instead of dying conquered death instead. Do you?
 
One last thing - looking at the current commercialisation of Christmas, one priestly friend of mine remarked that it does look like the pagans have reclaimed Christmas. I think he does have something for us to think about.
I sadly must agree with your priestly friend, although many Christians (you sound like one of them) do our best to keep Christ in Christmas by focusing on our Savior’s birth as the main focus of the holiday.

For me, the main distraction from doing that is the logistical planning and preparation of family get-togethers, which our family is hosting this year. However, I told all of our relatives that nothing will interrupt my immediate family’s plans to attend Christmas Eve service at church, so the get-together is being scheduled around it. .
 
Tommy, it is also should be remembered that Jehovah Witnesses’ objections are not about Christmas per se but rather about Jesus himself. Anything that exalts Jesus into the position of equal divinity with God the Father is not consistent with JW theology. JW do not believe that Jesus is divine in the same way that God the Father was - they believe that Jesus was a creation of God the Father. So, in a way, they are modern-day Gnostics, the same heretics to whom John directed the Gospel that he wrote. Hence you will see all attempts to diminish the stature of Jesus and I see the denial of Christmas in the same way.

And yes, Christmas tree has pagan roots. The evergreen on the Christmas tree has the same obvious symbolism for a pagan winter solstice that got Christianised in the same way.

But again, it is what we have in mind when we look at the Christmas tree today that counts, not its origins. Let’s take a look at what we call Christmas tree colours - green, red and yellow. Looked at with Christian faith, Green is the Lord Saviour whom death could not conquer, Red is the blood that was spilled for our salvation, and Yellow is the gold given for a kingly baby.

So when you look at the very familiar and over-hackneyed Christmas tree, what do you see? I see a king, who humbled himself to be sacrificed for my sins, but instead of dying conquered death instead. Do you?
I didn’t before but do now, thanks to your post and those of others. Prior to starting this thread, the only Christian thing I associated with the Christmas tree was the angel that we place on top, along with a few decorations that contain a cross that we placed on it. Other than that, it was just a pretty lit-up tree that symbolized family togetherness and the continuation of a Christmas tradition, and that was about it for me.
 
I didn’t before but do now, thanks to your post and those of others. Prior to starting this thread, the only Christian thing I associated with the Christmas tree was the angel that we place on top, along with a few decorations that contain a cross that we placed on it. Other than that, it was just a pretty lit-up tree that symbolized family togetherness and the continuation of a Christmas tradition, and that was about it for me.
Our Christian and Catholic faith has so much heritage that could enrich so much of our lives. There is so much to share.

I just realised that you are not Catholic. So maybe you can read Catholic in my earlier posts as catholic with lower-case c.

Have a blessed and meaningful Christmas.
 
One last thing - looking at the current commercialisation of Christmas, one priestly friend of mine remarked that it does look like the pagans have reclaimed Christmas. I think he does have something for us to think about.
This is one good reason why the church follows a liturgical calendar which im sure Tommy999, a Methodist, would agree with. 👍

Those churches that do not follow a liturgical calendar must find it more difficult to separate themselves (their Traditions) from societal influence. 🤷

Peace!!!
 
Sorry Tommy for being late to the party.

Yes, Jesus was more likely born in spring or summer. Romans are very practical people and most likely would have organised the census (Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem because of census requirements) in spring/summer when days are longer and warmer.

And yes, it is likely the Church chose the unknown-dated Christmas to be 25 Dec in order to Christianise a pagan festival. At that time, there was in Rome a week-long festival of Saturnalia to celebrate the winter solistice from 17-23 Dec. The festival was very popular among Romans and culminated on 23 Dec as the Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun, from which day the days gets longer - it got shorter and shorter but never got diminished and was reborn to get longer from that day onwards.

On the basis of 'if you can’t beat them, join ‘em’ basis, I guess, the Church in her wisdom chose not to fight a popular week-long revelry and chose instead to impart a Christian understanding to all those symbols. So Christmas was 25 Dec in Rome from at least early third century onwards.

It was easy for the ‘Unconquerable Sun’ to become the sacrificed saviour that death could not conquer. Saturnalia’s gift-giving morphed into Christian charity and gift-giving inspired by St Nicholas’ gifts to the three peasant girls.

The pagan laurel evergreen used to symbolise the undying Sun came to symbolise the saviour whom death could not conquer. The evergreen’s symbolism later found its way into the Advent wreath, which itself was a pre-Christian Germanic symbolism - the eternity of the circle became a symbol of the eternal Jesus without beginning and end, another way of saying alpha & omega I guess.

Also, New Year’s day in those days was 25 March, the spring equinox (it is very strange to us, as it will be 24 March 2015 and then the next day is 25 March 2016). Christian symbolism would mean that 25 March becomes the start of a new era and so it became the date when the saviour of the world was conceived - the Annunciation. And 9 months later the birth of the saviour takes place on 25 Dec.

[Sorry for the non-American dating method but sometimes the rest of the world would like to declare our independence from Americanism :D:D]

In the end, it is an issue anyway?

No, as it just shows what Catholicism and Christianity is all about. Being a universal religion, it is adaptable to local practices and draws its heritage from the common inheritance of human society in all forms the way God created us. What is important is not so much whether the symbolism is Christian or pagan in origin but what what do we have in our mind today when we hold the symbol or perform the act in question.

I am an ethnic Chinese and in Asia, the Catholic Church has no issue with ethnic Chinese praying with joss-sticks like those Chinese do in Buddhist & Taoist temples. We just have to make sure that we do not pray to our ancestors but are praying for them and paying them our respects. The joss-stick is not religious in nature, but deemed by the Church to be cultural.

The Church calls this inculturation and this is what makes me proud to be Catholic. Being Catholic means people coming together from different backgrounds, different languages, different cultures but bound in one faith. This is a lot more apparent to non-white Catholics who live outside the Europeanised world. Those Jehovah Witnesses and Evangelical Christians (and indeed fundamentalist Catholics) have only burnt their rich heritage when they insist on only a Christian history for everything they do.

One last thing - looking at the current commercialisation of Christmas, one priestly friend of mine remarked that** it does look like the pagans have reclaimed Christmas**. I think he does have something for us to think about.
Hi, Jim!

…actually, they couldn’t have done so since they do not Celebrate Christ; what is truly sad is how Christians have embraced the paganizing of Christmas (commercialization and distancing themselves from Christ–under the guise of “political correctness” they have refuse to proclaim “Merry Christmas” and go to all extremes to spend their moneys during Christmas and in businesses that are at the frontline of the battle against Christian values).

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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