Defense Against The Bad Popes Argument

[Shin]

Actually, out of 265 popes… 74 are saints… unless I miscounted by one or two, or my references are inaccurate.

That percentage of saints is certainly greater than any other occupation as far as we know… though of course there’s more focus on the popes and the sample size is small.

This is notable especially when you consider the fewness of the saved, which St. John Chrysostom for example, applies also to bishops and priests…

 

[TMC]

I disagree. Not only in regards to the Pope but world leaders as well. We obey because of our fidelity to those in positions of power. We do not obey only when they defy Faith and Morals. It is for that reason that despite Our Lords opinion of the Pharisees - he told the Apostles who were still under the Old Covenant to obey them.

Pax

I am not sure how this is responsive to my post. I simply said that Popes are not selected by God and that we have had Popes that God would never have selected. That says nothing about whether the authority of those individuals. For example, we can’t say that we won’t follow a particular Pope because we don’t believe his selection was divinely inspired - no organization could operate like that.

 

[dcointin]

Actually, out of 265 popes… 74 are saints… unless I miscounted by one or two, or my references are inaccurate.

That percentage of saints is certainly greater than any other occupation as far as we know… though of course there’s more focus on the popes and the sample size is small.

This is notable especially when you consider the fewness of the saved, which St. John Chrysostom for example, applies also to bishops and priests…

Is there a generally agreed upon number of popes that led immoral lives? It would be interesting to compare the numbers!

 

[Shin]

I don’t know, but I would like to know more about the subject. Especially since it’s so pertinent nowadays.

I would like to have a better grasp of historically how bad things can get with various Popes who have gone bad and how the devout people in those times handled it.

 

[dcointin]

I found an article on this subject that claims there were about 10 bad popes. If that is correct, then that’s about 3.8% of all popes have been bad. Now if you compare that to the number of saintly that have been canonized as saints according to your numbers, 74, that’s 27.9%. So about 4% were bad, and about 28% saints.

I think this is the best response I’ve heard yet to the argument that the Papcy is corrupt!

socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/12/bad-popes-how-many-of-em-were-there-how.html

 

[Shin]

I found an article on this subject that claims there were about 10 bad popes. If that is correct, then that’s about 3.8% of all popes have been bad. Now if you compare that to the number of saintly that have been canonized as saints according to your numbers, 74, that’s 27.9%. So about 4% were bad, and about 28% saints.

I think this is the best response I’ve heard yet to the argument that the Papcy is corrupt!

socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/12/bad-popes-how-many-of-em-were-there-how.html

I say, good show! This will make for interesting further reading.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Please stay on topic.

Thank You

 

[JaMc]

I’m paraphrsing Father Mitch Pacwa as I understood him.

There were a handful of corrupt popes in Church history…but they were so busy being corrupt they did not make any formal teachings on doctrine or dogma etc.

. . .

I never really thought about it that way, but it makes sense - you never hear about theological pronouncements from John XII, Alexander VI, or Stephen VII (some of the worst examples). Basically, they treated it like a secular kingdom, and couldn’t be bothered with their spiritual duties. Actually, I think the fact that even the most corrupt Popes did not teach heresy is testament to the infallibility of the Papacy on matters of dogma.