Defense for Purgatory

  • Thread starter Thread starter christismylord
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

christismylord

Guest
I was taking to a “non-denominational” pastor, he claimed the word “purgatory” comes from the word meaning “paradise” How do I defend that it is a state of suffering? He said “If there are flames or suffering, that isn’t paradise to me!” He said it was the same word in scripture as when Jesus said to the dying thief “Today you will be with me in paradise (purgatory.)” Any explanations?
 
I’m pretty sure Purgatory shares a root with purification, which by the way in the Bible in Latin, it actually does use words that are similar to that. Anyway, if your friend wants to go to heaven, and your friend knows they have attachment to sin, Purgatory would be the logical place to go first.
 
First of all, when someone claims a word means something, ask them to provide a source. I could say “apple” meant “banana” but if I don’t have a source like an analysis of Latin words for that, it means nothing.

Second of all, we don’t know what goes on in Purgatory and it may be different for different souls. It is not officially a teaching that it’s full of flames or pain. Souls in Purgatory do suffer at minimum from their longing for God, but they may or may not have additional sufferings. Some theologians like Fr. Groeschel actually teach that it’s a relatively upbeat place of learning.
 
christismylord said:
I was taking to a “non-denominational” pastor, he claimed the word “purgatory” comes from the word meaning “paradise” How do I defend that it is a state of suffering? He said “If there are flames or suffering, that isn’t paradise to me!” He said it was the same word in scripture as when Jesus said to the dying thief “Today you will be with me in paradise (purgatory.)” Any explanations?
Click to expand...
The pastor is in error.
The word “paradise” is the English translation of the Greek word “paradeiso” (παράδεισος). The word is translated as “garden” in some verses and “paradise” in other verses.

The word “purgatory” is the English translation of the Greek word “kathartírio” (καθαρτήριο) — formed from the root words “purge” and “katharízo”.

As you can see, there is no connection in form or meaning in the 2 Greek words “paradeiso” and “kathartirio”, just as there are none in the English “purgatory” and “paradise”.
 
Last edited:
Once again, wafer-thin theology fails to understand - and fails to read the bible!

For but one example (from Paul, a defacto Pope) 1 Corinthians 3:10-14.
  1. After death
  2. At the judgment.
  3. Man’s works will be tested by fire.
  4. If they withstand the fire, he will receive a reward.
  5. If they burn up, he will yet be saved…
  6. But only as if passing through fire.
Wanna light him up? Ask him if he even reads his bible. I find that very few “bible Christians” actually know more than a few verses - most of them in Romans. If he starts blurting out Romans, ask him if Paul was crucified for him (1 Corinthians 1:13)
 
Well, it would appear that yuour pastor acquaintance never went to a Catholic school “back when”, because he did not study any Latin; in addition, he apparently does not have a copy of Webster’s New World Dictionary, College addition, or he would see that the etymology of the word is from Latin, and has no connection whatsoever with “paradise”.

I raised twin daughters and they would ask me what a word meant; in fairly early grade school I would hand them my copy, often to their dismay and frustration with me.

Would that your acquaintance had been so raised.

That, and it would be nice if he would read 2 Maccabees.
 
po18guy said:
ask him if he even reads his bible . I find that very few “bible Christians” actually know more than a few verses - most of them in Romans.
Click to expand...
To which it has been said that Protestants know a little about a lot of Scripture, and Catholics know a lot about a little of Scripture.

Kudos on “Light him up”. it could lead to a good catharsis. It might even purge him of some of his thoughts. (pun intended).
 
Last edited:
I think it’s reversed: Catholics know less about more of the bible and Protestants know more about less of the bible (i.e. the Romans Road).
 
Ah, I think you are right and I made a mashup out of it. Thanks. :crazy_face:
 
christismylord said:
He said it was the same word in scripture as when Jesus said to the dying thief “Today you will be with me in paradise (purgatory.)” Any explanations?
Click to expand...
I’ve heard that in the Eastern Christian Traditions, that what we (RC’s) call purgatory, is actually one in the same with what we call heaven (or being in the Divine Presence/Beatific Vision), being in the presence of our lord burns/purges away our sin.

To my understanding the RCC has not condemned this teaching of the EOC (and the OOC?), and therefore this belief is perfectly acceptable to RC’s.

I believe (EO christians correct me if I’m wrong) some Eastern Christians believe that hell, purgatory/heaven are all the same place: in the Divine Presence, and the difference depends on the state of your soul (damned or saved), so quite literally what is heaven for one, is hell for another.
This also provides quite the answer for your non-denominational pastor friend.
 
Last edited:
CathBoy1 said:
I believe (EO christians correct me if I’m wrong) some Eastern Christians believe that hell, purgatory/heaven are all the same place
Click to expand...
I think the EO believe in an intermediate state of purification and they certainly pray for the dead. So same idea, they just don’t call it purgatory.
 
christismylord said:
I was taking to a “non-denominational” pastor, he claimed the word “purgatory” comes from the word meaning “paradise
Click to expand...
Ask him what he thinks the word ‘purgation’ means.

Def. purification or cleansing.

This word is closely related to Purgatory and it has nothing to do with 'Paradise '.
 
Last edited:
Dan_Defender said:
I think the EO believe in an intermediate state of purification and they certainly pray for the dead. So same idea, they just don’t call it purgatory.
Click to expand...
Yes they pray for the dead so they must believe in some sort of purification.
What I am saying is that as I understand it, it is their (EO) belief that when a soul appears before the Divine Presence it is purified (how long this process take is up for debate) and that purification is what we (RC’s) call purgatory.

But in the EO perspective the purification is a “state of being” that the soul experiences while in the Divine Presence, or what we RC’s call the Beatific Vision, otherwise known as heaven, rather than the western idea of the purification taking place in a separate place between heaven and hell.

As far as I know the RCC finds both interpretations (state of being vs actual place) acceptable, whereas the EOC only accepts one (state of being).

Nonetheless, seeing as both are acceptable to the RCC, I think the state of being argument can be useful in the OP’s case.
 
Last edited:
CathBoy1 said:
I’ve heard that in the Eastern Christian Traditions, that what we (RC’s) call purgatory, is actually one in the same with what we call heaven (or being in the Divine Presence/Beatific Vision), being in the presence of our lord burns/purges away our sin.

To my understanding the RCC has not condemned this teaching of the EOC (and the OOC?), and therefore this belief is perfectly acceptable to RC’s.

I believe (EO christians correct me if I’m wrong) some Eastern Christians believe that hell, purgatory/heaven are all the same place: in the Divine Presence, and the difference depends on the state of your soul (damned or saved), so quite literally what is heaven for one, is hell for another.
This also provides quite the answer for your non-denominational pastor friend.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, even probable, since God is omnipresent. Even so, there are 3 distinct states being experienced - hell, purgatory, heaven - and the state of heaven/paradise is not the same state as purgatory or hell.
 
Last edited:
Guess we were typing at the same time. I did a quick edit on my last post.
 
From John Paul II’s General Audience on 7/11/99:
In the context of Revelation, we know that the “heaven” or “happiness” in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Pope John Paul II does not reference purgatory or hell in his talk, but since the soul departs from the physical body after death, entering the spiritual realm, one might infer that a physical “place” does not apply and a state of being resulting from the soul’s "personal relationship with the Holy Trinity"is a better description of Purgatory and Hell also.

That sentence is almost as long as one of St. Paul’s! I promise not to edit this post again. 🙂
 
Last edited:
otjm said:
Using the term “place” for something spiritual borders on an oxymoron. Pope John Paul 2 referred to it as a “state of being” rather than a “place”.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but saying terms like “place” in conversations about heaven/hell can be helpful to western ears, especially to your average non-denominational type Christian as referred to in the OP.

Furthermore the “state of being” understanding is exactly what I have been arguing for, please look:
CathBoy1 said:
But in the EO perspective the purification is a “state of being” that the soul experiences while in the Divine Presence, or what we RC’s call the Beatific Vision, otherwise known as heaven, rather than the western idea of the purification taking place in a separate place between heaven and hell.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top