Defense of Doug Batchelor/Adventist Misconceptions

[KJK80]

But, since i havce shown that the sanctuary doctrine came from the Bible and not the teaching of man the point is settled.

You did NO such thing… that’s an outright lie… And it’s really quite simple, you can NOT prove the sanctuary doctrine Biblically… it is PURELY a speculation/teaching of man.

They got it from the disciples. The Sabbath was never set aside.

No, the Sabbath was never put aside, but it’s also not for you to keep–unless of course, you are a Jew?

Egypt is a metaphor for the land of sin.

Right, show me that in the Bible.

I don’t live there; but the natives who do could certainly teach you which day it is and that fact has no relevance for the claim that we can’t know how (vs. when) to keep the Sabbath from the Bible alone.

OK, hook me up with a native that can teach me that from the Bible… And how do you keep the Sabbath? I guess there’s no variance on how to keep it? i.e. sundown/sundown 6pm/6pm, whether you should drive or not on Sabbath… hmm, can you buy food on Sabbath? Can you wash dishes on Sabbath? Can a nurse work on Sabbath? I guess all of this is clearly outlined in hte Bible and you can tell me the universal understanding of the Adventist church on these questions immediately?

I didn’t write Scripture, so there is no private interpretation.

Oh but you have your private interpretation… As it is obviously different than your protestant brother’s who do not keep Sabbath and worship on Sunday…

my question had nothing to do with the sanctuary. Why didn’t you answer my question? Why the fast foot shuffle?

Where did you get your Bible? How did you learn the things you do? Strictly from the Bible… nobody showed you a thing? You just found the scriptures, put them together, proved to yourself they were without error and God-breathed, inspired by teh Holy Spirit… turned around, came up with the beliefs you have… just happened to find a church that agreed with them exactly and went from there… Is that how it worked for you?

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
But, since i havce shown that the sanctuary doctrine came from the Bible and not the teaching of man the point is settled.

You did NO such thing… that’s an outright lie… And it’s really quite simple, you can NOT prove the sanctuary doctrine Biblically… it is PURELY a speculation/teaching of man.

I gave you a link that showed that the doctrine is taught in the Bible. We don’t need the works of EGW to prove it–that would be the hallmark of a cult (in the street sense of the term). Therefore, I proved that the claim that we can’t get it from the Bible to be false.

Quote:
They got it from the disciples. The Sabbath was never set aside.

No, the Sabbath was never put aside, but it’s also not for you to keep–unless of course, you are a Jew?

Jesus said that “the Sabbath was made for man”–the claim that it was made for Jews is a teaching of man, not the Bible. BTW, the first Jew was Avbraham–when did he hear about the Sabbath?

Egypt is a metaphor for the land of sin.

Right, show me that in the Bible.

The Passover commemorates God bringing Israel out of Egypt and is the metaphor of God drawing His people out of sin.

And how do you keep the Sabbath?

I already gave you the Bible texts.

I guess there’s no variance on how to keep it? i.e. sundown/sundown 6pm/6pm,

Timing is a question of when, not how. The Sabbath is kept from even to even (sundown, they didn’t have clocks in the Garden of Eden).

whether you should drive or not on Sabbath… hmm, can you buy food on Sabbath? Can you wash dishes on Sabbath?

That would be “servile” labor.

Can a nurse work on Sabbath?

Jesus said “It is lLawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

I didn’t write Scripture, so there is no private interpretation.

Oh but you have your private interpretation…

I quoted Scripture, not an interpretation.

The Bible is its own interpretor.

 

[Delraek]

Jesus said that “the Sabbath was made for man”–the claim that it was made for Jews is a teaching of man, not the Bible. BTW, the first Jew was Avbraham–when did he hear about the Sabbath?

Hmmmm… Jew comes from Judah, a son of Jacob (Israel).

*Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. *

Jacob’s descendants are referred to as the Israelites. These were the people who were freed from 400 years of slavery in Egypt and then given the law - hundreds of years AFTER the death of Abraham. So, I don’t see how Abraham could have been a Jew, or how he could have been given the “law”?

 

[Matchbook]

MarysRoses,

I think you are making a problem where there really is no problem. Your focus on some of the “key words” in what you posted does not give light to the true Adventist belief in White’s writings.

Dictionary definition of Authoritative: “2. substantiated or supported by documentary evidence and accepted by most authorities in a field”

Based on what we read in her writings, and when we see the truth that she teachings matching with that in the Bible, as well as what we observe as identifying characteristics of a true prophet (as given in the Bible, OT and NT), we become willing to view her as an authoritative source (not THE SOURCE) of truth to provide comfort, instruction, guidance, and correction. As our belief states, her writings are meant to point us to the Bible for doctrine. If you have or were to read some of her books, she often states clearly that she does not want her writings to be held above the Bible, nor to have her writings used as darts to pierce or condemn another person.

Are we not to believe that in these latter days, that God will send forth prophets, male and female both, as stated in the book of Joel, who will have dreams and visions from God? And has there ever been a prophet of God who has been well-received by the majority? Often, prophets say things that most people do not want to hear, despite the core of the message being of hope.

I attended a local Adventist Ellen White 2-day seminar a few weeks ago, and I wish many of you could have been here to hear it, because not only do I believe it would have completely reshaped many misconceptions on Ellen White among those here, but it also did for myself! There was a speaker who was the former director of the Ellen White estate who gave an excellent talk about the true human nature and characteristics of Ellen White, her family, her struggles, and her own interpretation of the importance of her writings. I discovered that there is no substantiation given by herself that her writings are verbally inspired, that is, words given DIRECTLY by the Holy Spirit onto the pages, but that she was thought-inspired, by visions and dreams, and filled with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as she wrote, directing the flow of her thoughts, but not each and every word. God chose her to share many special messages of hope and caution for the people in the last days. MANY Adventists have taken her writings too far; a great many. That was also discussed in the panel at the seminar.

These things now having been stated, it is important that you fully understand that it is not my greatest wish that you believe in Ellen White, nor is it the critical aim of the SDA church. The Bible is the ultimate written authority, and any prophet we accept absolutely MUST bare truth to the teachings of the Bible, and point to it for all doctrine. So if you were to come to the point of accepting Ellen White as God’s prophet, it should be by the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not by debate or convincing. I am here because I want to point out misconceptions, and offer clarity where it can be added. I prayed before writing these things, that God’s Spirit would guide my words.

I know that many people, including Catholics believe that Adventists have novelty teachings, like the sanctuary, which I will expound on slightly from Scripture in my following post. First of all, these are not doctrines for salvation, by any means. They are teachings, based on teachings within Scripture, meant to give further elucidation to God’s end-time people as the purpose and meaning of these Biblical teachings become more readily understood, and their modern pertinence recognized.

Much like the early century followers of Jesus could not have fully understood the meanings and ramifications of some of the teachings in Revelation and in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), we, as students of the Word, learn more and more the applications of many prophecies as they are currently being fulfilled, and as God’s Spirit provides the light. The Bible says that many of the meanings of Jesus’ sayings to the disciples were hidden from them for a purpose, until their fulfillment, so that they may see and believe. That still applies to us today.

So to sum up my point regarding Ellen White, if you are willing to look into the entirety of our beliefs involving Ellen White, and especially from her own writings, you would find it immensely clear that she claims and even goes so far as to rebuke any attempt to put her writings above the Bible. Any person or Adventist who does so not only dishonors her own beseechings, but dishonors God’s word.

Matchbook

 

[Matchbook]

You cannot prove the sanctuary message Biblically… You cannot prove that the Sabbath is appropriate for non-Jews to keep, Biblically.

Right from the Bible:

(Heb 8:1-2) “1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.”

----So Jesus is our High Priest, in heaven, a Minister of the sanctuary and true tabernacle, erected by GOD…not by man. That is straightforward, that there is a heavenly sanctuary, and I offer this to you Biblically.

(Heb 9:24-26) “24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself”

If you find yourself interested in the Sanctuary, and would like to read more about it, including the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary, and what that meant, I offer you this link of the chapter “What is the Sanctuary” in Ellen White’s book “The Great Controversy”: whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc23.html . You will find that everything has a Biblical basis.

You also cannot prove HOW the Adventist is to keep the Sabbath (without personal interpretation) Biblically. Nor can you prove the remnant church theory, nor that the Sabbath keeping church is indeed this remnant. There’s a lot more. The Bible does not teach anything on its own. People teach… based on scriptures. The SDA church IS based on the teachings of man and their interpretation of the Bible.

The Sabbath has nothing to do with Adventists exclusively, so when we wish to keep holy the 7th day, we follow the guidelines of the 10 commandments as given in the Bible. Jesus mentioned many times the importance of keeping his commandments (“If you love me, keep my commandments”).

After Jesus’ ascension, his disciples and apostles still appear to keep the Sabbath day as shown in multiple verses, and I will cite Acts 18:4 - “And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.” Now, as some have said, “Well, he was teaching among Jews, so he was only keeping their Jewish custom on the day they met.” But wait, Paul taught there every Sabbath for 1 year and 6 months, and persuaded his listeners each Sabbath, but never do we hear anything about Paul correcting their observance of the 7th day, or teaching them to observe the 1st day!

Now, in anticipation of some perhaps citing Colossians 2:16 which states “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days,” it is an absolute necessity to look at the verse in context, and especially with the wording. In Leviticus, there are mentioned several special traditional sabbath “days” (sabbath simply meaning a period of rest). To expound…

(Leviticus 23:37-29) “37 ‘These are the feasts of the LORD which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire to the LORD, a burnt offering and a grain offering, a sacrifice and drink offerings, everything on its day— 38 besides the Sabbaths of the LORD, besides your gifts, besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings which you give to the LORD. 39 ‘Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days; on the first day there shall be a sabbath-rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath-rest.”

This is not speaking of THE Sabbath day in the ten commandments, but of special ceremonial sabbaths. This is exactly what Paul is referring to in that chapter in regard to ordinances and ceremonies.

Now lastly, about the remnant church, I believe djconklin did a fine job with explaining the remnant church, as “those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” The Adventist movement purpose is really to shed light on the importance of some forgotten truths, and to point forward to Christ’s soon coming. We serve the purpose of the remnant church, but the remnant church is not a denomination. His end-time church are those given in that verse, the bride of Christ, whoever has those traits, regardless of denomination. I choose to be an SDA because I believe in the truths set forth in the denomination, but being an SDA doesn’t make me saved.

Matchbook

 

[MarysRoses]

MarysRoses,

I think you are making a problem where there really is no problem. Your focus on some of the “key words” in what you posted does not give light to the true Adventist belief in White’s writings.

Dictionary definition of Authoritative: “2. substantiated or supported by documentary evidence and accepted by most authorities in a field”
Matchbook

Its really interesting you left out the first, and most common definition:

1. having due authority; having the sanction or weight of authority: an authoritative opinion.

and also #3:

1. having an air of authority; accustomed to exercising authority; positive; peremptory; dictatorial: said with an authoritative air.

I would find #2 to be very unlikely in the context. After all, its a list of fundamental beliefs. Doctrines, not opinions.

Based on what we read in her writings, and when we see the truth that she teachings matching with that in the Bible, as well as what we observe as identifying characteristics of a true prophet (as given in the Bible, OT and NT), we become willing to view her as an authoritative source (not THE SOURCE) of truth to provide comfort, instruction, guidance, and correction. As our belief states, her writings are meant to point us to the Bible for doctrine. If you have or were to read some of her books, she often states clearly that she does not want her writings to be held above the Bible, nor to have her writings used as darts to pierce or condemn another person.
Matchbook

Ellen White in her own words:

She doesn’t want her words held above the bible? Did you miss these?

“There are many precious truths contained in the Word of God, but it is “present truth” that the flock needs now.”(Early Writings, p. 63)

“In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit.” (Testimonies, Vol 4, p. 147)

"We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God’s word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. " Letter 329, 1905 (Selected Messages, Vol 1, page 161).

And has there ever been a prophet of God who has been well-received by the majority? Often, prophets say things that most people do not want to hear, despite the core of the message being of hope.
Matchbook

The bible warns that there will be many false prophets.

Much like the early century followers of Jesus could not have fully understood the meanings and ramifications of some of the teachings in Revelation and in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), we, as students of the Word, learn more and more the applications of many prophecies as they are currently being fulfilled, and as God’s Spirit provides the light. The Bible says that many of the meanings of Jesus’ sayings to the disciples were hidden from them for a purpose, until their fulfillment, so that they may see and believe. That still applies to us today.
Matchbook

So you are saying we were left in ignorance for 1800 years until Adventists came along.

So to sum up my point regarding Ellen White, if you are willing to look into the entirety of our beliefs involving Ellen White, and especially from her own writings, you would find it immensely clear that she claims and even goes so far as to rebuke any attempt to put her writings above the Bible. Any person or Adventist who does so not only dishonors her own beseechings, but dishonors God’s word.

Matchbook

Ellen White in her own words…

“All who believe that the Lord has spoken through Sister White, and has given her a message, will be safe from the many delusions that will come in these last days” (Letter 50, 1906; Selected Messages, Vol 3, p.84)

-Letter 329, 1905 (Selected Messages, Vol 1, page 160-161).

 

[Matchbook]

Hi MarysRoses,

Sorry it has been awhile since I have replied. I started class this week, plus, I wanted to study some of the Ellen White quotations you gave in their full context, especially the “present truth” one, since it does appear particularly strange in such a quote. So I did some reading in Early Writings, and I wanted to offer a response. But first, to reply to the first part of your last response on the definitions:

I chose definition 2 because the nature of that definition seems to apply to the situation as well as what our church denomination actually believes. I’ve listened in seminars, read explanations, heard explanations from leaders of the church, and there is an agreement that she is an authoratative source of truth, because she bares truth, reflects it from the Word(our ultimate source above any other). Any Adventist that deviates from that and toward more reliance on Ellen White does not represent our beliefs. If you do not believe this from me still, there is likely a Contact button on the Adventist site where you can email in a question to the organization.

Now, for your Ellen White quote on “present truth”. First off, let’s start to define the term present truth and who is supposed to be giving it and from where from the rest of the chapter (I will be pasting a lot, out of necessity):

(Early Writings, Chapter: The Messengers)“The Lord has often given me a view of the situation and wants of the scattered jewels who have not yet come to the light of the present truth, and has shown that the messengers should speed their way to them as fast as possible, to give them the light. Many all around us only need to have their prejudices removed and the evidences of our present position spread out before them from the Word,and they will joyfully receive the present truth.”
So from this we can see that the present truth is something that the “messengers” are to give to those in the world who need it, and who will joyfully receive it, from the Word. We can now establish that this oft-used term “present truth” pertains to Scriptural teaching, and not to outside teachings as the quote by itself somewhat implies. If you are still unsure, I will continue further…

At this time, let me establish the purpose of the truth the messengers are to be spreading:

“And to all eternity [the messengers] will enjoy the satisfaction of having done what they could in presenting the truth in its purity and beauty, so that souls fell in love with it, were sanctified through it, and availed themselves of the inestimable privilege of being made rich, and being washed in the blood of the Lamb and redeemed unto God.”

Now, what is “present truth”?..Your quote in context:

“I saw the necessity of the messengers, especially, watching and checking all fanaticism wherever they might see it rise. Satan is pressing in on every side, and unless we watch for him, and have our eyes open to his devices and snares, and have on the whole armor of God, the fiery darts of the wicked will hit us. There are many precious truths contained in the Word of God, but it is “present truth” that the flock needs now. I have seen the danger of the messengers running off from the important points of present truth, to dwell upon subjects that are not calculated to unite the flock and sanctify the soul. Satan will here take every possible advantage to injure the cause.”

“But such subjects as the sanctuary, in connection with the 2300 days, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, are perfectly calculated to explain the past Advent movement and show what our present position is, establish the faith of the doubting, and give certainty to the glorious future. These, I have frequently seen, were the principal subjects on which the messengers should dwell.”

So it should be clear now that the statement you quoted isn’t saying there are precious truths in the Bible BUT we need truth outside the Bible now…not at all. The subjects of the 2300 days and the sanctuary are Biblical (we may argue on interpretation, that’s for another time), the commandments of God…absolutely Biblical, faith in Jesus, yes.

As for the other quotes, I assure you, if you do yourself the service of studying the chapters from which you are citing these quotes for yourself, you will see they are equally explainable. You seem to have a ready arsenal of quotes, but unless you check your contexts first, they become nothing but empty shells of artillery against Ellen White.

Now, lastly, for the other parts of your response, where you quoted me and responded… to save time, I will respond in short in their order:

1. Yes, there are warnings of false prophets and how to test them. But we aren’t to close ourselves off to God’s prophets either, if they meet the spiritual and Biblical requirements.
2. That is absolutely not what I said. I said “more and more applications of prophecies as they are being fulfilled…and this still applies to us today”… Your comment about 1800 years of ignorance 'til Adventists, I don’t understand.
3. I don’t know what your posting of that quote is to show; it doesn’t show any claim over the Bible, that is clear. It only refers to the assertion that Ellen White’s writings and warnings give much preparation for evading delusion.

MarysRoses, I don’t know where you get your many quotes from, but it would be wearisome to us both to simply go through quote after quote to no spiritual benefit. I’ve gone through many. I’ve read enough of her writing to know what she believes, in Whom (Christ) she believes, and snipped quotes are not going to erode that knowledge. If I seem too staunch to you, let Christ be my Corrector, to whom I pray for guidance into His truth.

 

[Bookman]

Clarification #1: "The Adventist Church is a cult! (do not listen to them)

Just as the Church Christ founded has four marks–one, holy, catholic, and apostolic–so does the SDA have the four marks of a cult:

1. Defective Christology–teaching that Jesus was the Archangel Micael.
2. Authoritative extra-bibllcal revelations: the ravings of Ellen Gould White (whose name adds up to 666) get called “spirit of prophecy”.
3. Radical sectarianism: the myth about the “remnant church” which is opposed to Christ’s promise that His Church would abide on earth forever.
4. Doctrinal novelties: the “heavenly sancturary” and “investigative judgement”.

Allow me to help the mathematically challenged. Ellen Gould White adds up to 651, not 666, using the roman numerical value of each letter in her name. 656 if you count the U as a V, as some do. That makes her name ten short, besides, the scripture ( Rev. 13:17,18) that speaks of the number “666”, clearly defines the one who possess’s it as male. the “number of HIS name” and the “number of a MAN”. I can’t be a female.
The rest of your misconceptions and misrepresentations about the SDA’s are just as inaccurate. The catholic church is the only entity in history that meets all nine defining characteristics of the beast of Revelation and the “little horn” of Daniel. There is no escaping that fact, but there is time for you to escape the biggest, most dangerous fraud ever perpetrated upon humankind (spiritual “Babylon”). God is calling His true ones “to come out of her” (Rev. 18 1-5). We will be praying for you! God Bless

E-0
L-50
L-50
E-0
N-0

G-0
O-0
U-5
L-50
D-500

W-0
H-0
I-1
T-0
E-0

= 656

 

[Bookman]

Clarification #1: "The Adventist Church is a cult! (do not listen to them)

Just as the Church Christ founded has four marks–one, holy, catholic, and apostolic–so does the SDA have the four marks of a cult:

1. Defective Christology–teaching that Jesus was the Archangel Micael.
2. Authoritative extra-bibllcal revelations: the ravings of Ellen Gould White (whose name adds up to 666) get called “spirit of prophecy”.
3. Radical sectarianism: the myth about the “remnant church” which is opposed to Christ’s promise that His Church would abide on earth forever.
4. Doctrinal novelties: the “heavenly sancturary” and “investigative judgement”.

Allow me to help the mathematically challenged. Ellen Gould White adds up to 651, not 666, using the roman numerical value of each letter in her name. 656 if you count the U as a V, as some do. That makes her name ten short, besides, the scripture ( Rev. 13:17,18) that speaks of the number “666”, clearly defines the one who possess’s it as male. the “number of HIS name” and the “number of a MAN”. It can’t be a female.
The rest of your misconceptions and misrepresentations about the SDA’s are just as inaccurate. The catholic church is the only entity in history that meets all nine defining characteristics of the beast of Revelation and the “little horn” of Daniel. There is no escaping that fact, but there is time for you to escape the biggest, most dangerous fraud ever perpetrated upon humankind (spiritual “Babylon”). God is calling His true ones “to come out of her” (Rev. 18 1-5). We will be praying for you! God Bless

E-0
L-50
L-50
E-0
N-0

G-0
O-0
U-5
L-50
D-500

W-0
H-0
I-1
T-0
E-0

= 656

 

[djconklin]

Well, “more likely” since the text does say “the number of his name”:

"Ok, if you take all the letters in bill gates III and then convert it into ASCII code (American Standard Code for Info. Interchange) and then add up all the numbers… You will get 666, which is the number of the beast.

B = 66 I = 73 L = 76 L = 76 G = 71 A = 65 T = 84 E = 69 S = 83 I = 1 I = 1 I = 1 Add these numbers and they equal 666.

Coincidence?

Maybe, but take Windows 95 and do the same procedure and you will get 666, too. And even MS-DOS 6.31 adds up to 666."

from greaterthings.com/Humor/gates_anti.htm

And if you had a really bad day with Windows …

It might make a believer out of you!

 

[djconklin]

Ellen White in her own words:

She doesn’t want her words held above the bible? Did you miss these?

“There are many precious truths contained in the Word of God, but it is “present truth” that the flock needs now.”(Early Writings, p. 63)

In her last public appearance she held up the Bible and told the leaders of the church: “Gentlemen, I commend unto you this book.” Not hers.

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

So, when I talk about what the Bible teaches I use only the Bible, not EGW.

 

[ORD_NASILA]

Debating the interpretation of Bible verses really misses the heart of the matter. Is Jesus truly God and truly human? Or is he subordinate to God the Father, a lesser being?

MarysRoses

ORD’s response to All posters on this thread
I was just browsing the different threads on the Forum and was absolutely astounded to find that these differences of opinion re the Revelation, Michael the Archangel, and the Trinity are still being hotly debated by Catholics and non-Catholics
Apologies straight away for coming into this thread nearly 3 years after it was created, (My! How the time flies!). but aren’t you missing the big picture? Cyberspace is available for everybody,(apparently with very little “Let, or hindrance”), to use for good, or for evil. So to quote information from an allegedly “authoritative” Christian website of any denomination is, to say the least ill advised. This is not to say that there are no genuinely authoritative websites. Not at all. I am a non-Catholic and I never fail,(when preparing a post) to download the Douay-Rheims Holy Bible, www.biblegateway.com (with access to many other translations and languages), and a plethora of Bible Commentaries from respected sources such as, The Douay-Rheims on-line Bible, Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Entire Bible, etc.etc, and I have to say that John 1:1 is the perfect synopsis of all of them on the subject under discussion, “In (the) beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

God Bless!

             Regards, ORD.

    * "Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows"* (Matt.10:31)

 

[ORD_NASILA]

The rest of your misconceptions and misrepresentations about the SDA's are just as inaccurate. The catholic church is the only entity in history that meets all nine defining characteristics of the beast of Revelation and the "little horn" of Daniel. There is no escaping that fact, but there is time for you to escape the biggest, most dangerous fraud ever perpetrated upon humankind (spiritual "Babylon"). God is calling His true ones "to come out of her" (Rev. 18 1-5). We will be praying for you!  God Bless :thumbsup:/QUOTE]

Hello Bookman, I once observed to a SDA friend, that the biggest “millstone” around the neck of the SDA Church was Ellen G. White, because she is seen as speaking from a SDA viewpoint, not as from a non-denominational Christian viewpoint. Also, whereas the SDA’s have their “Prophetess” (Ellen G. White), the Mormons have their Prophet Joseph Smith, and the Catholic Church has their Visionaries, e.g. The Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich. All of those prophets and visionaries have one thing in common, they speak Bible Truths together with extra-Biblical pronouncements, or prophesies. This of course is true of the Prophets of old also, but those above are distinguished from the OT Prophets by their extra-Biblical, denomination-specific utterances. As to my own stance on these matters, I tended to regard myself as a bit of an hypochondriac when it came to Religion, i.e. I had a syringeful of anything that I thought would do me good, so I attended C of E Services, Catholic Masses and Bible studies (run by Franciscan Monks and Catholic Nuns), I had many friends who were staunch members of the Third Order of St Francis, and so on, I even served for a time as a volunteer with The Legion of Mary giving out pro-Catholic literature to non-Catholics. However, I eventually tired of all of the controversy surrounding the major Churches and came to the conclusion that the Bible is the fount of all wisdom and that I would henceforth become a casual member of any Church that taught from the Bible. So to me, the trading of insults and innuendo between the non- Catholics and the Catholic Church is totally counter productive, more especially from the Catholic standpoint since it would seem to go against the aims of “the impossible dream”, Unity of the Whole Christian Church, as outlined in Vatican II. Now, I remind you that this is only my personal opinion so it should be taken at face value, there is no anti-Catholic, anti Mormon, anti-SDA or anti anything involved here, just commonsense.

God Bless!

             Regards, ORD.

     *"Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows" *(Matt.10:31)

 

[benidict]

Bookman;3753360:

The rest of your misconceptions and misrepresentations about the SDA's are just as inaccurate. The catholic church is the only entity in history that meets all nine defining characteristics of the beast of Revelation and the "little horn" of Daniel. There is no escaping that fact, but there is time for you to escape the biggest, most dangerous fraud ever perpetrated upon humankind (spiritual "Babylon"). God is calling His true ones "to come out of her" (Rev. 18 1-5). We will be praying for you!  God Bless :thumbsup:/QUOTE]

Hello Bookman, I once observed to a SDA friend, that the biggest “millstone” around the neck of the SDA Church was Ellen G. White, because she is seen as speaking from a SDA viewpoint, not as from a non-denominational Christian viewpoint. Also, whereas the SDA’s have their “Prophetess” (Ellen G. White), the Mormons have their Prophet Joseph Smith, and the Catholic Church has their Visionaries, e.g. The Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich. All of those prophets and visionaries have one thing in common, they speak Bible Truths together with extra-Biblical pronouncements, or prophesies. This of course is true of the Prophets of old also, but those above are distinguished from the OT Prophets by their extra-Biblical, denomination-specific utterances. As to my own stance on these matters, I tended to regard myself as a bit of an hypochondriac when it came to Religion, i.e. I had a syringeful of anything that I thought would do me good, so I attended C of E Services, Catholic Masses and Bible studies (run by Franciscan Monks and Catholic Nuns), I had many friends who were staunch members of the Third Order of St Francis, and so on, I even served for a time as a volunteer with The Legion of Mary giving out pro-Catholic literature to non-Catholics. However, I eventually tired of all of the controversy surrounding the major Churches and came to the conclusion that the Bible is the fount of all wisdom and that I would henceforth become a casual member of any Church that taught from the Bible. So to me, the trading of insults and innuendo between the non- Catholics and the Catholic Church is totally counter productive, more especially from the Catholic standpoint since it would seem to go against the aims of “the impossible dream”, Unity of the Whole Christian Church, as outlined in Vatican II. Now, I remind you that this is only my personal opinion so it should be taken at face value, there is no anti-Catholic, anti Mormon, anti-SDA or anti anything involved here, just commonsense.

God Bless!

             Regards, ORD.

     *"Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows" *

(Matt.10:31)hello my friend. i found your quote that thie bible is the fount of all wisdom interesting. it might not be a bad idea if you wanted to start a thread on this subject. (if one is not going already, that is) the bible claims it is the Church that is the bulwark of truth. that being said, one Church has to be true, and we should be able to distinguish it from all others. if you wish to discuss this more, that would be great. either you can start it, or i can. Peace

 

[ORD_NASILA]

ORD NASILA;7343290:

hello my friend. i found your quote that thie bible is the fount of all wisdom interesting. it might not be a bad idea if you wanted to start a thread on this subject. (if one is not going already, that is) the bible claims it is the Church that is the bulwark of truth. that being said, one Church has to be true, and we should be able to distinguish it from all others. if you wish to discuss this more, that would be great. either you can start it, or i can. Peace

I am quite sure benidict that, if a thread has not already been started the subject matter would have been well aired in other threads dealing with associated topics. However, if you feel that you would like to start a thread, why not! Unfortunately, I do not think that I will give value for money, not being so well versed in the Scriptures, and Early Church history as most of the other posters on this Forum. I will however do my best to respond in a respectful and polite manner, provided that is, that the questions are not too deep and soul searching, for I am, dear benidict, “a simple man”.

God Bless!

            Regards,   ORD.

      *"Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows"* (Matt. 10:31)