Defense of God being just, although He commanded killing homosexuals?

[sdegutis]

The Church has taught us not to identify people by their sexual orientation, and that every individual is endowed with unique dignity. This dignity is always to be respected. We are to love our neighbour… we aren’t to pick and choose which neighbour.

God calls all of us to purity… and this is something that very many of us struggle with, it’s not a simple matter of pointing the finger at homosexuals… Jesus teaches us that adultery can be committed in the heart, murder can be committed in the heart. As our faith increases though, the grip of sin loosens.

At the end of the day, God is righteous. We are His creation, and so is the world, and He makes the rules. I’ll add though that He is also very merciful as we are all sinners.

Sure, I think we can all agree to everything you’ve said here. But what does it have to do with the original question of this thread? What you’ve said seems completely off-topic.

 

[sudy]

Sure, I think we can all agree to everything you’ve said here. But what does it have to do with the original question of this thread? What you’ve said seems completely off-topic.

I’m sorry, I thought what I said was a defense. I didn’t see any other question in the original post. What to say to him? I really don’t know.

…are we to condone sexual immorality? I don’t think we can… not if we’re speaking the truth anyway.

Is God unjust? Absolutely not because we are His to do with as He sees fit.

Can anything impure enter Heaven? No., but there is Purgatory after death to help us.

Are there other sins that are sexually immoral? Yes… and very many of us have a hard time remaining pure.

Will God show mercy on us? If we turn away from sin, yes, and put all our trust in Him.

Does the Church teach us to reject homosexuals? No, absolutely not. We are all sinners and the same measure of judgement we use will be used against us.

… I’ll add that the Bible states that no temptation is ever too great that it cannot be overcome.

If none of this is helpful then you have my apologies.

 

[Genesis315]

The old law and its punishments were pedagogical. Most of the sins punishable by death are what we now know to be mortal sins, leading to a worse consequence than death of the body, the death of the soul.

Jesus revealed the truth that was signified by these punishments and as such, abolished the punishments which were figures (but He did not abolish not the truth they taught). Now, we are no longer immediately punished for our sins (accept in some cases by civil authority by virtue of its responsibility for the common good), but are given time to repent before going before the just Judge. It is the time of mercy.

Just a general note not necessarily related to this sin:

It should also be noted that God is the Lord of life and life is a gift. It is not unjust for God to take away that gift since it does not belong to us by justice in the first place–and He does take it away from all of us at some point (we all die). But, he has not given us the right to deliberately take the life of others (or even ourselves), no matter the sins they commit, but rather has commanded us not to–He is the Lord of life, not us. We are commanded by Jesus to practice charity, not vengeance, and to help bear each other’s burdens. We are to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. We would like others to be patient with us when we sin, to treat us with mercy, and to hope and pray for our salvation. We must do the same. Civil authority has been given the authority by God to inflict punishments under certain conditions, but not arbitrarily or without reference to their responsibility for the common good. And even civil authority should, when possible, provide for repentance and mercy as God does.

 

[frobert]

And what authority do you have to back up your claim that you’re right and we’re wrong? Aren’t you just speaking from your own personal opinion? And if so, what makes your opinion infallible, and ours fallible?

What authority does any faith based claim have? The bible? If so it would be circular reasoning as you first have to believe everything in the bible is infallible. That the bible has frequently been misinterpreted is widely held.

Why do you believe God kills homosexuals? Why was killing homosexuals moral in early Jewish history but is not today? I am sure many ISIL fighters are acting on faith based beliefs. My guess is you would say that what they are doing is immoral. Why are they wrong if they are acting on their belief that God tells them to do so? Is the killing of homosexuals today in some of the African countries moral? As I pointed out above incorrect interpretations of God’s will have been the cause of numerous senseless killings. Pope John Paul II apologized for many of them.

I wonder what Pope Francis would say?

 

[Church_Militant]

No one here has put forward that we should kill homosexuals, so that part of your remarks is basically a straw man that I hope you enjoyed beating it up so much.

You need to reconcile my citation in Genesis 19 with your thinking about the justice of God and the reality of most homosexuals. The cities were destroyed because they were grossly wicked, as displayed by the fact that they sought to take the angels by force and do violence and perversion to Lot and his family. Are most homosexuals like that today? I haven’t seen it, so perhaps there is a difference.

The real issue is that they generally push a more subtle agenda to normalize a disordered behavior, and the church disagrees. This has become common in our society and politically correct…but we will not bow to it.

The issue is not SSA, but chastity, since all of us, regardless of attraction are called to chastity and self control and when we fail in that, both behaviors are disordered and sinful.

 

[frobert]

No one here has put forward that we should kill homosexuals, so that part of your remarks is basically a straw man that I hope you enjoyed beating it up so much.

You need to reconcile my citation in Genesis 19 with your thinking about the justice of God and the reality of most homosexuals. The cities were destroyed because they were grossly wicked, as displayed by the fact that they sought to take the angels by force and do violence and perversion to Lot and his family. Are most homosexuals like that today? I haven’t seen it, so perhaps there is a difference.

The real issue is that they generally push a more subtle agenda to normalize a disordered behavior, and the church disagrees. This has become common in our society and politically correct…but we will not bow to it.

The issue is not SSA, but chastity, since all of us, regardless of attraction are called to chastity and self control and when we fail in that, both behaviors are disordered and sinful.

Did I say anyone on here is advocating that homosexuals be killed? If I did I misspoke.

You have a much better understanding of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah than most here. I would add that inhospitality played a role also. As to whether there are similarities in homosexuals today you can gain some insights by reading “Homosexuality and Pseudohomosexuality” by Lionel Ovesey. It doesn’t have anything to do with the bible but it is a classic on the motivations involved.

 

[sudy]

The issue is not SSA, but chastity, since all of us, regardless of attraction are called to chastity and self control and when we fail in that, both behaviors are disordered and sinful.

Absolutely correct.

It’s clear that certain sins lead to death… aka Mortal sin… those in which asking for forgiveness by prayer alone just isn’t enough. There are so many ways to fall into mortal sin btw, not just by sexual immorality, but the Bible shows us clear passages that teach us how to wash our robes clean by confessing our sins.

When God’s message reaches us, we are to turn our backs on sin and try to follow Christ as well as we can. In the Bible it states that no temptation is too great that we can’t overcome it… we just have to try, as well as putting our trust in God.

God hasn’t commanded us to kill homosexuals. God teaches us not to kill… to kill is to commit mortal sin. He teaches us to love our neighbour as ourselves, and to be charitable and compassionate. This includes loving homosexuals… we are to love the sinner, not the sin.

Some people haven’t received the message of our Lord, or don’t yet understand it. Some have turned their backs on it also.

Those who turn their backs have greater guilt than those who never knew in the first place.

God will give each and every one of us many chances to turn to God and to reject sin. That is extremely just IMO… because we’re all great sinners.

 

[Sky_River]

I did not say anything was barbaric. i don’t claim to understand anything about God’s reported interventions in the world in times BC.

I have heard skeptics arguing against the Bible say, “How was Leviticus 20 13 different from what Nazi Germany did to gays”? I know thats a ridiculous statement to make, but how should I respond to atheists who compare the Bibles teachings about homosexuality to that?

 

[Rau]

I have heard skeptics arguing against the Bible say, “How was Leviticus 20 13 different from what Nazi Germany did to gays”? I know thats a ridiculous statement to make, but how should I respond to atheists who compare the Bibles teachings about homosexuality to that?

The nazis did not exist in Old Testament times, nor were they acting in accordance with any right principle.

The Old Testament required and forbid many things which are not in force today. Leviticus states the law of the day. I have no insight into why the punishment for homosexual acts (not for being gay) was as it was.

 

[ericc]

Maybe I didn’t phrase the question well enough. Let me try more succinctly:

“Killing homosexuals is immoral. God commanded homosexuals to be killed. Therefore God is immoral.”

How do you argue with that?

1. The verses often quoted condemn the act, not the person. i.e. the sin . Jesus walks around and eats together with the sinners, all sinners.
2. Homosexual act is only one of many sins condemned. Adultery, incest, murder, idolatry etc are all on the list. There is no special treatment for homosexuals. I wonder why some think they have been specially targeted.
3. God is only immoral if he has no right to destroy. Everyday, thousands of people die. I don’t see God labelled as immoral for allowing the end of such lives. God destroyed Pharoah’s armies and the first born. He destroyed cities full of people. If God destroys your enemies, do you call Him immoral or do you celebrate that God is with the just? Just wondering.

SIN, (including sexual sins) is the opposite of what God represents. He condemns all sins. Some more than others. He has the absolute right to destroy his creation. For those who condemn God, they have made themselves higher than God. They think they have the right to judge Him, mock Him.