Defense of Sola Scriptura

[Cinette]

Catholic means “universal” - St Ignatius of Antioch & St Polycarp of Smyrna were referring to the Church that was universal.
The proper name for the universal Church is not the Roman Catholic Church.
“…it does happen that the Church is called Catholic too, because it embraces all truth, and there is even some fragments of this truth to be found in different heresies” (St Augustine)

*To which universal Church at the time do you think Sts Ignatius and Polycarp were referring?

Do you think perhaps they were referring to a heretical group?

How far back does The Catholic Church go?

Which Church embraces all truth? We know that denominations embrace part of the truth.

God bless all
Cinette *

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I just think since Luther many souls were very missled.

It was shortly after the time of Luther there was great demand for missals and it was about this time, history tells us, that people became missaled

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

*To which universal Church at the time do you think Sts Ignatius and Polycarp were referring?

Do you think perhaps they were referring to a heretical group?

How far back does The Catholic Church go?

Which Church embraces all truth? We know that denominations embrace part of the truth.

God bless all
Cinette *

Some of the questions we need ask:

• How did they define ‘universal’?
• What to them constituted universality?
• How did they regard universal concept?

 

[Cinette]

Are not other denominations outside the “Roman” Catholic Church capable of infallibility?
Where does it say in the Catholic Catechism “The Roman Catholic Church has monopoly on the works of the Holy Spirit”? or “The Roman Catholic Church has sole ownership rights to the Holy Spirit”?

How can we in all decency presume only the Roman Catholic Church can be infallible?
This is diametrically opposed to the V2’s spirit of ecumenism, closing us to dialogue with our brothers and sisters in Christ!

“Thy habitation is in the midst of deceipt: through deceipt they have refused to know me, saith the Lord. Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts: Behold I will melt, and try them: for what else shall I do before the daughter of my people?” (Jeremias 9:6-7)

*You muddy the waters Kevin.

There is the Church Jesus founded - she is One, she is Holy, she is Catholic and she is Apostolic. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide His Church into all truth. He kept his promise.

All breakaways, all protestant churches are apostates I am afraid. That doesn’t mean that they do not possess some truth - they do. Which Church did they protest against do you think?

Kevin like it or not and I do not wish to be impolite but yes, the Church Jesus founded is infallible. In matters of Faith and Morals she is infallible - her teachings are infallible - otherwise what would be the point? Are we sinners? Yes all are. Just don’t forget that despite the Apostles’ failings Jesus chose them to represent Him, to teach, to spread the good news. And look how after receiving an infilling of the H Spirit at Pentecost they were transformed!

I see you call yourself Catholic - ?

God bless you
Cinette*

 

[Pax]

Yes, all has been well, thank you. And truly God has blessed, having been justified by faith alone. Yourself?

MD in Christ,

The Lord’s blessings never cease and I am grateful that he has saved me from sins. Oh…by the way James, the apostle, said you are not justified by faith alone.

God bless my friend.

 

[Cinette]

Some of the questions we need ask:

• How did they define ‘universal’?
• What to them constituted universality?
• How did they regard universal concept?

*Jesus instructed his Apostles to go out and spread the Good News. It was all the areas to which they did so at the time, which constituted universality. It then spread to the whole world. You find the Catholic in most corners of the world.

You asked about infallibility. But don’t you know that there are many different denominations each teaching something different. The Catholic Church has always stuck to its guns, always teaching the same truth. How then can you say that perhaps a denomination might also be infallible if denominations all teach something different?

There is only one Church founded by Jesus and that Church has been around for 2000 years and that Church is the Catholic Church. Whether you like it or not - or whether anyone else likes it or not.

God bless you
Cinette

 

[T_More]

You know, I’ve weatched this thread develop for a long time. Some have stated that all denominations make up the body of Christ, so it essentially doesn’t matter if you aren’t Catholic. Well, let me ask, as a former JW, are JW’s part of this body? They don’t believe in the divinity of Chirst and they don’t believe in a heaven for all, and yet they claim to be Christian like everyone else. They claim to have “the truth” and that the WTS is the sole channel of God. They use a bible, albeit a very tampered one, so where do they stand? Is there a point where they have drifted too far? How do you know? Where’s the line that should not be crossed and still be considered part of Christ’s body, and what’s the critieria for determing that?

 

[Cinette]

*Excellent questions!

But this is for another thread, don’t you think? Why don’t you start one?

God bless you
Cinette*

 

[Pax]

Let me ask again Pax. What more is needed than this?
…
…

Richard in Christ,

We need to be careful here because you and I are going into territory that will divert the thread from the original topic. I will say a few things, however, and then give you the last word on the topic of salvation by faith alone.

Please take my comment about “short hand” in the way it was presented and recall the important quote from scripture that I gave in my original post that was not included in your response. In that post I said:

I make this claim based upon the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In John 12:47-48 Jesus tells us very directly that:

If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

If we do not keep Jesus’s sayings we will be judged on the last day. If we reject Jesus and do not receive his sayings we will be judged on the last day. When scripture speaks of judgment on the last day, scripture is referring to heaven and hell. This point is clear by way of other passages such as that of the sheep and the goats.

Obviously, this passage and my comments point out that more is needed than faith alone because Jesus never says that you are saved by faith alone, but he does say that if you do not keep his sayings or if you reject him and do not receive his sayings that you will be judged on the last day.

Beyond that scripture says quite directly that we are “not saved by alone”[James 2:24].

Now I will give you but a small fraction of the available scriptures that talk about other things that are necessary for salvation and say nothing that resembles your claim that they only point to faith alone.

BY BAPTISM
Acts: 2:40-41
And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added.

Rom 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you-not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

BY HOPE
Rom 8:24
For we are saved by hope. (KJV)

Eph 1:11-12
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.

Col 1:5-6
You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God.

BY OBEDIENCE
Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

1 Peter 1: 2
to the exiles…who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

BY LOVE
1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him.

2 Thess 2:10
and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him”

Now I can on at great length with scripture demonstrating other things that are needed for salvation. “Endurance” is one of those things that scripture calls for and believe me there is a ton of scripture on that one. Instead of quoting more scripture on this topic, however, I will instead ask you a simple question.

Can you go to heaven if you do **not **love God?

 

[T_More]

*Excellent questions!

But this is for another thread, don’t you think? Why don’t you start one?

God bless you
Cinette*

Thanks. I took your advice and started it.

 

[Bengoshi]

I apologize for offending you…I’ll try harder to be more circumspect in my remarks.

God bless.

Apology accepted my good online friend!

 

[Bengoshi]

If it was answered, I wouldn’t be asking again. What if some people disagreed with the Bereans regarding something in scripture; who then would have the authority to resolve their differences, if Paul and the rest of the Apostles were out of town?

If you and I are both subject to sacred scripture alone, and not the other way around, and you and I disagree on many things, which we do, then please show me how to use norming to resolve our differences, once and for all? Do what Josiah refuses to do.

Thanks friend…

Hi Joe,

Maybe you didn’t read them well? Kidding! The answer to your first question is…I don’t know! Perhaps those convinced that St. Paul’s preaching is “biblical” will believe him and those who don’t, will not. The Bible was silent on that point. However, what we can be sure of is that the Bereans were commended for counterchecking St. Paul’s preaching against Scripture.

What about Josiah?

 

[Cinette]

Thanks. I took your advice and started it.

Please provide the link.

Thank you
God bless
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Richard in Christ,

We need to be careful here because you and I are going into territory that will divert the thread from the original topic. I will say a few things, however, and then give you the last word on the topic of salvation by faith alone.

Please take my comment about “short hand” in the way it was presented and recall the important quote from scripture that I gave in my original post that was not included in your response. In that post I said:

…

Now I can on at great length with scripture demonstrating other things that are needed for salvation. “Endurance” is one of those things that scripture calls for and believe me there is a ton of scripture on that one. Instead of quoting more scripture on this topic, however, I will instead ask you a simple question.

Can you go to heaven if you do **not **love God?

*Excellent!

I have copied this into a Directory for future reference.

Thank you so much
God bless
Cinette*

 

[Pax]

I noticed some mention of the Bereans as support of sola scriptura and the call for “norming.”

I would contend that the example of the Bereans does not support sola scriptura and is not an example of norming in the way it has been presented in this thread.

It is important to note that the book Acts discusses Paul’s travels and evangelization in various places before and after the narrative on his interactions with the Bereans. This context is extremely important because it points out things that shed light on the discussion at hand. Paul had successes and he had some mixed results in his efforts to evangelize. It is also important to note that Paul was for the most part preaching in the Jewish synagogues just prior to, and immediately after, meeting with the Bereans.

Norming by way of scripture is not the message emerging from the narrative of the Bereans and neither is sola scriptura. This is made clear by what took place in Thessalonica just prior to this event. Here’s the passage:

Acts 17:1–9
“Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, ‘This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.’ And some of them were persuaded, and joined Paul and Silas; as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women. But the Jews were jealous, and taking some wicked fellows of the rabble, they gathered a crowd, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the people…”

Obviously, things did not go well in that synagogue even though Paul’s preaching included reasoning and arguing with the Jews from scripture. Paul spent three weeks in discussion with them. Paul was following his customary method and in this case it was not well accepted.

In the narrative on the Bereans we read this:

Acts 17:10-12
The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea; and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

The Living Bible translation says “more open minded” in place of noble-minded and it is clear that they welcomed Paul’s message. The difference between the instance involving the Thessalonian Jews and the Berean Jews is the open mindedness and willingness to listen to Paul’s new covenant teaching shown by the Bereans. Both groups debated and studied the scripture with Paul. The Bereans welcomed a new set of teachings from one of the Church’s greatest evangelizers but few of the Thessalonians did so, and the majority took it upon themselves to run him out of town.

If sola scriptura and norming were at work in Berea then sola scriptura and norming were at work in Thessalonica. There are huge problems for the idea that this is sola scriptura and norming by scripture. The difference is the “open minded” and willing acceptance of Paul’s preaching and not the scriptures. Both groups were using the scriptures and neither is described as better at it than the other. Likewise, Paul is teaching something completely new. He is teaching Jesus, salvation, his death, and resurrection. One group gets it and one doesn’t. Both are using scripture and both are being taught by the greatest evangelist of all time. Scripture didn’t convince the Thessalonians that Paul was teaching the truth. They drew other contrary conclusions and were so strong in their feelings that they drove Paul out of town. Talk about rejection…wow!!

I highly recommend reading the article by Steve Ray at the following link:
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

*You muddy the waters Kevin.

“If I do it is not intentional” (Kevin)

There is the Church Jesus founded - she is One, she is Holy, she is Catholic and she is Apostolic. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide His Church into all truth. He kept his promise.

“And God bless you Cinette” (Kevin)

 

[Bengoshi]

JonNC

Lutheran, and very highly regarded. In converting to CC he sacrificed a lot.

I’ve read his book Rome Sweet Home too, and from what I remember, especially in his latter years, he was presbyterian. I’ll check on that to be sure.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

You asked about infallibility. But don’t you know that there are many different denominations each teaching something different. The Catholic Church has always stuck to its guns, always teaching the same truth. How then can you say that perhaps a denomination might also be infallible if denominations all teach something different?
*

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. **Moreover, some, even very many, of the most significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church.” **(*Decree on Ecumenism, Vatican 2, Unitatis Redintegratio, 21 November, 1964) *

 

[Bengoshi]

JonNC

Lutheran, and very highly regarded. In converting to CC he sacrificed a lot.

I just checked. I quote from his official website:

“He was ordained in 1982 at Trinity Presbyterian Church in Fairfax, Virginia. He entered the Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil, 1986.”

 

[MartinJordan]

“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. **Moreover, some, even very many, of the most significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church.” **(*Decree on Ecumenism, Vatican 2, Unitatis Redintegratio, 21 November, 1964) *

The difference is accentuated when it is a question of the Eucharist. As the Council says, the Ecclesial Communities born from the Reformation “have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness especially because of the absence of the Sacrament of Orders…” (Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 22).

(From EWTN)