Defense of Sola Scriptura

[Vile_Servant]

The Lutheran Confessions don’t call it a doctrine. It says: “We pledge ourselves to the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments as the pure and clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true norm according to which all teachers and. teachings are to be judged and evaluated.”
It is a formal principle, but I don’t remember it being formally called doctrine. I’ve always understood it as a practice, norma normans (ruling rule).

James White isn’t Lutheran, that I’m aware of. Whatever communion he is a member of might consider it doctrine.

Jon

Using sola scriptura as the norm, how would you judge and evaluate Calvinism’s denial of the doctrine of the Real Presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Christian Eucharist?

 

[joe370]

Protestants will never be able to give you an answer to this question, because they do not have the answer. Anyone who claims to use sola scriptura in the Protestant world can justifiably promulgate any new denominations and doctrines as they please. the only certainty about sola scriptura is that it leads to uncertainty and confusion regarding the true doctrines of faith and morals.

You are so right. It made no sense to me as a former Christian belonging to one of the Lutheran churches. However, i am still gonna keep asking until someone (sola scriptura advocates) - answers the question.

The CC is the church founded by God, and I will always believe this, at least until someone can prove otherwise, which will never happen.

 

[JacobG]

Many roman catholics fail to understand that the Holy Scriptures alone is Holy. It is God’s revelation in written form. Authored by God, the Holy Spirit. No other writing or tradition can ever be equal or considered holy. They are the work of men.

Unfortunately, many roman catholics will never understand that the term “catholic” as it was used early in christian history has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the RCC of today. Catholic means universal, all Christians everywhere. Has** NOTHING** to do with denomination. The church that Christ built is referred to as the “called out ones”. These are Christian believers all over the globe. It is those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with their mouth that he is Lord. This is what we must do to be saved. We must acknowledge that we are lost sinners who cannot save ourselves. Our most righteous acts are filthy rags to God. It is only by Christ’s shedding of blood that we have forgiveness. It was what Jesus did at Calvary. NOT anything we do. Sadly, this is a stumbling block to the catholic, Jews and the other groups that teach works are necessary. The apostles never added a long list of qualifications necessary for salvation. They never said do all these church works, they never said salvation was found in them or a church. They always pointed to CHRIST alone.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

“We hold upon the earth the place of God Almighty” (Pope Leo X111, Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894)

“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth” (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, chapter 27, p.218, cities Petrus Bertanous)

“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh” (Catholic National, July 1895)

 

[Vile_Servant]

Many roman catholics fail to understand that the Holy Scriptures alone is Holy. It is God’s revelation in written form. Authored by God, the Holy Spirit. No other writing or tradition can ever be equal or considered holy. They are the work of men.

Unfortunately, many roman catholics will never understand that the term “catholic” as it was used early in christian history has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the RCC of today. **Catholic means universal, all Christians everywhere. Has NOTHING to do with denomination.**The church that Christ built is referred to as the “called out ones”. These are Christian believers all over the globe. It is those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with their mouth that he is Lord. This is what we must do to be saved. We must acknowledge that we are lost sinners who cannot save ourselves. Our most righteous acts are filthy rags to God. It is only by Christ’s shedding of blood that we have forgiveness. It was what Jesus did at Calvary.NOT anything we do. Sadly, this is a stumbling block to the catholic, Jews and the other groups that teach works are necessary. The apostles never added a long list of qualifications necessary for salvation. They never said do all these church works, they never said salvation was found in them or a church. They always pointed to CHRIST alone.

So your definition of catholic (universal) church would include the following?;
Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Lutherans, Reformed Churches, Anglicans, Baptists, Anabaptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Apostolic Assemblies of Christ, Evangelical Christian Church in Canada, Churches of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Congregationalist, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Calvinist and all other denominational and non-denominational Christian Churches?

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

So your definition of catholic (universal) church would include the following?;
Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Lutherans, Reformed Churches, Anglicans, Baptists, Anabaptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Apostolic Assemblies of Christ, Evangelical Christian Church in Canada, Churches of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Congregationalist, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Calvinist and all other denominational and non-denominational Christian Churches?

For me, I believe orthodoxy would define the universal church found in the ecumenical creeds such as the Apostle’s Creed. Now, should we separate since we have a different understanding of justification and authority? I don’t think so.

 

[moondweller]

So your definition of catholic (universal) church would include the following?;
Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Lutherans, Reformed Churches, Anglicans, Baptists, Anabaptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Apostolic Assemblies of Christ, Evangelical Christian Church in Canada, Churches of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Congregationalist, Presbyterian, Wesleyan, Calvinist and all other denominational and non-denominational Christian Churches?

When Jesus said “…I will build My church,” in Matt. 16:18, did He name or make reference to any of the above? Did He ever “name” the church He is presently building?

Joe370: If you’re searching for a name you’re searching in vain. His church is made up of His sheep, and He knows them by name (Jn. 10:3). His church has no name, but His sheep do, and He knows each and every one of them “by name.” This is what truly matters.

 

[moondweller]

“We hold upon the earth the place of God Almighty” (Pope Leo X111, Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894)

“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth” (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, chapter 27, p.218, cities Petrus Bertanous)

“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh” (Catholic National, July 1895)

Kevin, as a Catholic, do you post this as a positive or a negative?

 

[Vile_Servant]

For me, I believe orthodoxy would define the universal church found in the ecumenical creeds such as the Apostle’s Creed. Now, should we separate since we have a different understanding of justification and authority? I don’t think so.

Any thoughts on post #1168?

 

[guanophore]

Many roman catholics fail to understand that the Holy Scriptures alone is Holy.

You are definitely right about that! Such a perception is a form of idolotry, that is forbidden for Catholics. This position would constitute a violation of the first commandment.

On the contrary, we consider the Scriptures as Holy because they are inspired by God, who is the One who Alone is Holy.

By His blood, He has sanctified His Bride, the Church, who is also Holy. The Holy Scriptures and the Holy Church enjoy the condition of sanctity because they emanate from His Holiness.

It is God's revelation in written form. Authored by God, the Holy Spirit. No other writing or tradition can ever be equal or considered holy. They are the work of men.

In saying this, you are contradicting the Scriptures, which tesitfy that the Word of God that was given to the Church is equal to that which was given in writing.

Unfortunately, many roman catholics will never understand that the term “catholic” as it was used early in christian history has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the RCC of today.

Really? How is that? Do you think the Latin Rite lost Catholicity at some point?

Catholic means universal, all Christians everywhere. Has** NOTHING** to do with denomination.

Indeed, it does mean universal, and it is descriptive of all Christians everywhere. It is also true that it has nothing to do with denomination. That is because all the denominations have departed from the Catholic church, losing, rejecting, and denying Catholicity to a greater or lesser extent. The Catholic Church is not a denomination, but that from which, and against which, all others define themselves.

The church that Christ built is referred to as the “called out ones”. These are Christian believers all over the globe.

It is true that all who are validly baptized are members of Christ, and thus, members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It is those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with their mouth that he is Lord. This is what we must do to be saved. We must acknowledge that we are lost sinners who cannot save ourselves. Our most righteous acts are filthy rags to God. It is only by Christ’s shedding of blood that we have forgiveness. It was what Jesus did at Calvary.

While you appear to have been given a deficient understanding of salvation, this is a good start.

NOT anything we do. Sadly, this is a stumbling block to the catholic, Jews and the other groups that teach works are necessary. The apostles never added a long list of qualifications necessary for salvation. They never said do all these church works, they never said salvation was found in them or a church. They always pointed to CHRIST alone.

You have some strange notions about Judiasm, and about Catholicism. But you are right that the Apostles did not add “long lists” to salvation. For them, Faith, working through love, persevering until the end were part and parcel of salvation. In fact, they taught that, if your faith was not active in works, it was not a saving faith, and that if your faith did not persevere until the end, you would not be saved.

 

[guanophore]

Now, should we separate since we have a different understanding of justification and authority?  I don't think so.

I am quite certain that we should not be separate, because Jesus clearly wanted unity in the Body. However we are separated, and the Reformation departures from the Apostolic Teaching on justification and authority do, indeed separate us.

If you look at the history of the Church, you will see that all heresies separate their adherants from the One Church founded by Christ.

 

[guanophore]

When Jesus said "*...I will build My church*," in Matt. 16:18, did He name or make reference to *any* of the above?  Did He ever "*name*" the church He is presently building?

I don’t think so. I think the foundation stones (Apostles and Prophets) are the ones that gave names to it. They called it “The Way”, and described it as One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. If they were wrong, why did He not correct them? How come He let them call themselves Catholic for 2000 years? You would think He would be able to get through to SOMEBODY, that this was not what He wanted.

 If you're searching for a *name* you're searching in vain.  His church is made up of His sheep, and **He knows them by name** (Jn. 10:3).  His church has no name, but His sheep do, and He knows each and every one of them "***by name***."  This is what truly matters.

Yes, I agree with you, being known by Him is what truly matters. Those that are, are member of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[guanophore]

Kevin, as a Catholic, do you post this as a positive or a negative?

Catholics do not bring negativity against the Holy Bride of Christ. This would be attacking and tearing at His precious Body. Persons who do such things have become Protesant, or worse - in league with the Evil One, who is the Accuser of the Brethren, and always seeks to destroy that which is built by Christ.

 

[moondweller]

In saying this, you are contradicting the Scriptures, which tesitfy that the Word of God that was given to the Church is equal to that which was given in writing.

No, guanophore, ONLY the Scriptures are said to be theopneustos (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16). Men can proclaim and speak the “Word of God,” which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ - to be personally believed (Acts 6:7). Others can attempt to pervert the “Word of God” by adding to it. But ONLY the Scriptures are said to be theopneustos (God-breathed). Hence, the only canon provided by God for Christ’s church to test the teachings (doctrines) of men, within and without. There is none higher - NONE. All “Christianity” is accountable to the theopneustos Scriptures, just as all Israel (national) was accountable to the Scriptures given to her. Since Moses God has preserved His Word in this world by means of theopneustos Scripture. And men, refusing to be accountable to it, have rebelled against its absolute authority ever since.

 

[Vile_Servant]

No, guanophore, ONLY the Scriptures are said to be theopneustos (God-breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16). Men can proclaim and speak the “Word of God,” which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ - to be personally believed (Acts 6:7). Others can attempt to pervert the “Word of God” by adding to it. But ONLY the Scriptures are said to be theopneustos (God-breathed). Hence, the only canon provided by God for Christ’s church to test the teachings (doctrines) of men, within and without. There is none higher - NONE. All “Christianity” is accountable to the theopneustos Scriptures, just as all Israel (national) was accountable to the Scriptures given to her. Since Moses God has preserved His Word in this world by means of theopneustos Scripture. And men, refusing to be accountable to it, have rebelled against its absolute authority ever since.

does the absolute authority of theopneustos Scripture declare abortion to be a grievous sin against God?

 

[moondweller]

I don’t think so. I think the foundation stones (Apostles and Prophets) are the ones that gave names to it. They called it “The Way”, and described it as One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. If they were wrong, why did He not correct them? How come He let them call themselves Catholic for 2000 years? You would think He would be able to get through to SOMEBODY, that this was not what He wanted.

Guanophore, did JESUS ever name the church He is presently building?

Yes, I agree with you, being known by Him is what truly matters. Those that are, are member of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Yes, those that are known by Him are members of His body, which is the church (Col. 1:18), and which has no name. Yes, it is one, it is holy (separated unto Him), it is catholic (universal, not “headquartered” in one specific place), and it is “a holy temple” (sanctuary), not “the” Temple, built upon the foundation (teachings) of the Apostles, Christ Himself its corner stone Eph. 2:20-22). It is a heaven-bound congregation of individuals down through the centuries since Pentecost (Jn. 14:3; 17:24; Phil. 3:20-21; 1 Thess. 4:13-18), not an earthly institution.

 

[Vile_Servant]

When Jesus said “…I will build My church,” in Matt. 16:18, did He name or make reference to any of the above? Did He ever “name” the church He is presently building?

you haven’t answered my question.

 

[moondweller]

does the absolute authority of theopneustos Scripture declare abortion to be a grievous sin against God?

“Thou shalt not commit murder.” Murder has always been a sin against God and certainly one’s fellow man (the first recorded was Cain and Abel). With Moses and the Law, for Israel it was not only a sin against God but now a transgression against a specific Divine Commandment. And according to Jesus, one who is but angry with his brother is guilty of murder (Matt. 5:21-22). So much for man’s own righteousness (“filthy garments,” Is. 64:6). For this reason righteousness must be provided on an entirely different basishil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"The self-righteous (religious and secular) fail utterly to comprehend the depth of sin (even categorizing sin into “venial” vs. “mortal”), especially their own, and the depth of the state of sin in which they are, and from which they must be ransomed and redeemed by the sacrificial blood of Another (not works).

 

[moondweller]

Catholics do not bring negativity against the Holy Bride of Christ. This would be attacking and tearing at His precious Body. Persons who do such things have become Protesant, or worse - in league with the Evil One, who is the Accuser of the Brethren, and always seeks to destroy that which is built by Christ.

“We hold upon the earth the place of God Almighty” (Pope Leo X111, Encyclical letter, June 20, 1894)

“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth” (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, chapter 27, p.218, cities Petrus Bertanous)
*
“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ, Himself, hidden under the veil of human flesh*” (Catholic National, July 1895)So then you would positively agree with these statements? Correct? To not agree would be “Protestant” or, as you say, “worse,” being “in league with the Evil One?” Would “The Orthodox Church” agree with the above?

 

[moondweller]

you haven’t answered my question.

I did. You gave a list of names. I then asked if Jesus ever named any of them as His church? Did HE ever name His church?