define: Christian

[ESMDHokie77]

Hey CAF,

 Is a Christian someone who is licitly baptized with the Trinitarian formula or simply one who claims to believe in Christ?

Thanks,
Phil

 

[Marybeloved]

That’s a tough question.

Technically, Christian refers to a follower of Jesus Christ.

A validly baptized person may apostatize- become an unbeliever, either to another faith, or a life that’s incompatible with Christian teachings, or indifferentism. They could not then really be said to be followers of Christ even with their valid Trinitarian baptism, could they?

And yet not all lapses of faith and practice, not even all serious ones, constitute apostasy .

On the other hand, a believer and follower of Christ, while still a Catechumen (preparing for baptism) cannot also be said to not be a Christian.

Yet Baptism makes you a Christian… As does faith…It’s difficult.

My own personal opinion: A believer in Christ and the Trinity who is doing or genuinely intending to do (even with failures) all that is required of him in Christianity or is at least aware and acknowledges in belief, his duty to do so, whether/not he actually does it.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

One who adheres to the Nicene Creed.

 

[Thankfulness]

“Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch”. [Acts 11:26]

So the earlier question would be, why were the early followers of Jesus called Christians?
The basic meaning is ‘followers of Christ’, in a literal and spiritual sense.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

That’s a tough question.

Technically, Christian refers to a follower of Jesus Christ.

A validly baptized person may apostatize- become an unbeliever, either to another faith, or a life that’s incompatible with Christian teachings, or indifferentism. They could not then really be said to be followers of Christ even with their valid Trinitarian baptism, could they?

And yet not all lapses of faith and practice, not even all serious ones, constitute apostasy .

On the other hand, a believer and follower of Christ, while still a Catechumen (preparing for baptism) cannot also be said to not be a Christian.

Yet Baptism makes you a Christian… As does faith…It’s difficult.

My own personal opinion: A believer in Christ and the Trinity who is doing or genuinely intending to do (even with failures) all that is required of him in Christianity or is at least aware and acknowledges in belief, his duty to do so, whether/not he actually does it.

Yep… I agree it certainly is difficult!!! I tend to agree with you that belief in the Most Holy Trinity has to be a part of one’s set of beliefs if one is to be called Christian.

 

[1ke]

Hey CAF,

 Is a Christian someone who is licitly baptized with the Trinitarian formula or simply one who claims to believe in Christ?

Thanks,
Phil

The Catholic Church teaching is that anyone baptized in the Trinity is a Christian.

What people “think” about the matter isn’t really relevant. It is baptism that incorporates us into the Body of Christ. This is a basic teaching of the Church.

 

[manualman]

The Catholic Church teaching is that anyone baptized in the Trinity is a Christian.

What people “think” about the matter isn’t really relevant. It is baptism that incorporates us into the Body of Christ. This is a basic teaching of the Church.

Of course, it isn’t as simple as you imply. The Baptism you refer to has always been defined as either:

1. Baptism as we all know it (with water and in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
2. Baptism of blood: aks martyrdom for Christ before #1 above is available.
3. Baptism of desire. This is the tricky one. We have to wait and see, but there’s a pretty good chance Ghandi was a christian by this definition, his protestations notwithstanding. Only God gets to judge.

 

[A_G]

**A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His teachings. **

For a person to be a true Christian, must be in Communion with Rome. Membership in the Catholic Church is attained through baptism.

Pope Pius XII said: “To be Christian one must be Roman. One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth” (October 8, 1957).

Pope Leo XIII said: *“Whoever leaves her [the Catholic Church] departs from the will and command of Our Lord Jesus Christ; leaving the path of salvation, he enters that of perdition. Whoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress” *(June 29, 1896).

Pope Pius IX said: “He who abandons the Chair of Peter on which the Church is founded, is falsely persuaded that he is in the Church of Christ” (January 6 1873).

St. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch said: “Where the Catholic church is, there is Jesus Christ.” (105 AD)

St. Ambrose Bishop of Milan said: “Where there is Peter, there is the Church.” (4th century AD).

I believe that *certain *other denominations to be our “brothers and sisters in Christ”, however I believe to be fully a Christian, one must be in Communion with Rome. I believe this because I believe that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

 

[Tony888]

Hey CAF,

 Is a Christian someone who is licitly baptized with the Trinitarian formula or simply one who claims to believe in Christ?

Thanks,
Phil

An impossible question to find agreement upon

Our dictionaries define it loosely as followers of Christ, however most Christian denominations like to create their own definition. These hurdles are typically meant to exclude other Christian denominations.

I’m confused why the dictionary definitions are not good enough

 

[puzzleannie]

Hey CAF,

Is a Christian someone who is licitly baptized with the Trinitarian formula or simply one who claims to believe in Christ?

Thanks,
Phil

technically a Christians is one who obeys Christ, that is, one who is baptized in water and the Holy Spirit, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as he commanded, because he warned that only these can have eternal life and enter heaven.

He said on the night before he died “if you love me you will keep my commands.” Those who pick and choose which of those commands to follow will have a hard time justifying their claim to be Christian. "They will call ‘Lord, Lord,’ and he will say ‘I do not know you.’ "

 

[Marybeloved]

**A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His teachings. **

For a person to be a true Christian, must be in Communion with Rome. Membership in the Catholic Church is attained through baptism.

Pope Pius XII said: “To be Christian one must be Roman. One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth” (October 8, 1957).

Pope Leo XIII said: *“Whoever leaves her [the Catholic Church] departs from the will and command of Our Lord Jesus Christ; leaving the path of salvation, he enters that of perdition. Whoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress” *(June 29, 1896).

Pope Pius IX said: “He who abandons the Chair of Peter on which the Church is founded, is falsely persuaded that he is in the Church of Christ” (January 6 1873).

St. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch said: “Where the Catholic church is, there is Jesus Christ.” (105 AD)

St. Ambrose Bishop of Milan said: “Where there is Peter, there is the Church.” (4th century AD).

I believe that *certain *other denominations to be our “brothers and sisters in Christ”, however I believe to be fully a Christian, one must be in Communion with Rome. I believe this because I believe that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

I believe that in order to have the fullness of faith and grace and all that Christ has done for you, you must be Catholic.

I believe that for salvation, the church is necessary. However, I also believe that other Christians are in real, though imperfect, communion with the Church, and obviously, therefore, must also access salvation.

I do not believe however, that they are only part Christian and only become “full christians”, as you put it, when they become catholic. I’ve never seen the Church refer to non-Catholic Christians as only part Christian, and Catholics as full Christians. That type of designation is misleading. Protestants are not 1/4 or 1/3 or 1/2 or 3/4 Christian or part Christian, in any way. They are Christian- simply

We believe they are like children separated from their true family and raised outside their true home, by a “foster family”’. They are certainly not “part” children of their true parents! Of course not! But neither are they true members of their proper family, because due to the circumstances, they have no communion or real familial relationship with them- until they are reconciled with their true family. They cannot, in the meantime access all the riches and benefits and inheritance and all the good that is theirs until they find that true family of theirs.

 

[1ke]

1. Baptism of desire. This is the tricky one. We have to wait and see, but there’s a pretty good chance Ghandi was a christian by this definition, his protestations notwithstanding. Only God gets to judge.

Baptism of desire it **not **so broad as you make it out. Baptism of desire includes catechumens.

*1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. *

Ghandi, who never expressed any desire for baptism or becoming a Christian would **not **fall in this category. He might fall under the Church’s teaching of invincible ignorance, and God’s grace outside his Sacraments.

*847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”*

 

[wisdomseeker]

**A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His teachings. **

For a person to be a true Christian, must be in Communion with Rome. Membership in the Catholic Church is attained through baptism.

Pope Pius XII said: “To be Christian one must be Roman. One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth” (October 8, 1957).

Pope Leo XIII said: *“Whoever leaves her [the Catholic Church] departs from the will and command of Our Lord Jesus Christ; leaving the path of salvation, he enters that of perdition. Whoever is separated from the Church is united to an adulteress” *(June 29, 1896).

Pope Pius IX said: “He who abandons the Chair of Peter on which the Church is founded, is falsely persuaded that he is in the Church of Christ” (January 6 1873).

St. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch said: “Where the Catholic church is, there is Jesus Christ.” (105 AD)

St. Ambrose Bishop of Milan said: “Where there is Peter, there is the Church.” (4th century AD).

I believe that *certain *other denominations to be our “brothers and sisters in Christ”, however I believe to be fully a Christian, one must be in Communion with Rome. I believe this because I believe that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.

Many today, have sucumbed to idea that the CC is just a Church in the world just like others. they have the waterdown idea of the Church of Christ. How can anyone not elevate the Church that God HImself found and have stopped paying attention is a way of salvation to man? today, many have come to believe that it doesnt matter what church you belong to. the CC is not the Church one needs to be in to be saved. it is contrary to what our fathers have tought from the beginning.

 

[1ke]

An impossible question to find agreement upon

Our dictionaries define it loosely as followers of Christ, however most Christian denominations like to create their own definition. These hurdles are typically meant to exclude other Christian denominations.

I’m confused why the dictionary definitions are not good enough

Because words have meaning, and in this case also eternal consequences.

The dictionary is NOT the authority in matters of faith and morals. The Catholic Church is.

 

[Tony888]

Because words have meaning, and in this case also eternal consequences.

The dictionary is NOT the authority in matters of faith and morals. The Catholic Church is.

1ke, your raise a great discussion point = authority
The Cahtolic Church defines what it means to be CATHOLIC
The Luthern Church defines what it means to be LUTHERN
The LDS Church defines what it means to be MORMON
etc, etc.

But none of the various Christian denomiantions have an exclusive right to define for everyone else the term Christian.

On this point, I defend Catholics when evangelicals say the RCC is a Cult and not Christian.
Conversley, It is very arrogant to assume the Catholics are the arbitrators of “What is Christian” for all other deniminations.

 

[1ke]

But none of the various Christian denomiantions have an exclusive right to define for everyone else the term Christian.

This isn’t accurate. Ontologically there is only one Church. The Catholic Church. This is the only Church with such authority. And, yes, the Church does have this authority. The Church is not a denomination.

(and yes, I understand that there are people that reject this fact, but that doesn’t change reality. Relativism is a heresy.)

 

[1ke]

Conversley, It is very arrogant to assume the Catholics are the arbitrators of “What is Christian” for all other deniminations.

Reality is what reality is.

It is not arrogant, which implies some sort of emotion, it is a factual statement.

 

[manualman]

Ghandi, who never expressed any desire for baptism or becoming a Christian would **not **fall in this category. He might fall under the Church’s teaching of invincible ignorance, and God’s grace outside his Sacraments.

I’m not sure that your quotes back up this entire assertion. As I understand it, NOBODY is saved outside of the Church. How do you reconcile your above statement with EENS (from memory extra ecclesia nulla salve)?

I’ve always understood it as implying that those suffering invincible ignorance, but who responded to the Grace offerings they received did indeed receive a sort of baptism of desire, thus no contradiction with EENS. But I’m open to instruction.

 

[1ke]

I’m not sure that your quotes back up this entire assertion. As I understand it, NOBODY is saved outside of the Church. How do you reconcile your above statement with EENS (from memory extra ecclesia nulla salve)?

I’ve always understood it as implying that those suffering invincible ignorance, but who responded to the Grace offerings they received did indeed receive a sort of baptism of desire, thus no contradiction with EENS. But I’m open to instruction.

Paragraph 846-848 which I quoted above deal with EENS.

“Baptism of desire” that is confined to those who explicitly ask for it (as per my quote from the section on baptism).

In 846, it talks of those who, through no fault of their own, are outside visible membership fo the Church through ignorance. There, the Church simply states their salvation is *possible *and that it is “in ways known to himself God.” It does not state this is baptism of desire.

 

[manualman]

Paragraph 846-848 which I quoted above deal with EENS.

“Baptism of desire” that is confined to those who explicitly ask for it (as per my quote from the section on baptism).

In 846, it talks of those who, through no fault of their own, are outside visible membership fo the Church through ignorance. There, the Church simply states their salvation is *possible *and that it is “in ways known to himself God.” It does not state this is baptism of desire.

But if it ISN’T a form of baptism of desire, doesn’t it say that they are saved OUTSIDE of the Church? Seems a logical catch 22 to me.