Definition of a Christian?

[Nita]

Hello Pax et Caritas,

Originally posted by Pax et Caritas (quote from Mystici Corporis:
“Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.”

The Pope’s words (underlined) concern:

1. those who were Catholic and choose to “separate themselves” (one can’t separate oneself from something if he/she was never a part of it to begin with)
2. those who have been excommunicated from the Church (therefore members) for grave faults.

For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy
Again generally, schism and heresy would apply to members of a church (Catholic or otherwise) who go contrary to the teachings of the church they profess to be members of. Apostasy is denial of everything. Pope Pius says that the Body of the Church contains sinners; but some members sever the relationship through those sins.

I don’t deny that the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. I believe what the CCC says and what Pope Pius XII says. Here are some more lines from “Mystici Corporis”, the encyclical you cited.

*96. For the Church, the Bride of Christ, is one; and yet so vast is the love of the divine Spouse that it embraces in His Bride the whole human race without exception. …but likewise that we (Catholics) should recognize in other men, although they are not yet joined to us in the Body of the Church, our brothers in Christ according to the flesh, called, together with us, to the same eternal salvation.

1. …those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church… For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.*

I would consider that Vatican Council II and the CCC are part of the ongoing development of the doctrine that was included by Pope Pius in the above statements. Neither the Vatican Council documents or the CCC consider anyone outside the Catholic Church to be in **full communion **with the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church.

Nita

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

But lets go back to the original question of a definition of a Christian. It not only includes one who has reached the level of understanding you propose but one honestly seeking that level with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and a free dedication of their will and mind.

Well, it sounds like we are pretty much in agreement.

We can have a very detailed and minute theological discussion about the distinction between a formal and material heretic, what exactly is necessary to possess the theological virtue of faith, if no doctrine are explicitly rejected; and what consitues invincible, vs. vincible ignorance, etc…

But in truth, this is the area of God, not man. Man cannot know the internal workings, thoughts, and level of guilt, of another man, unless that man reveals this. We can apply the principles of speculative theology in an attempt to ascertain who, theoretically, is united to the Catholic Church and who is not, but it is really just an excercise in speculative theology. And, unless this is understood, it can (and does) confuse people.

That is why the church has always taught the objective truth and left the subjective “exceptions” to God. For the past 40 years or so, the Church has shifted from teaching the objective and allowing for the possibility of an exception, and focused almoste exclusively on the exceptions and possibilities.

This, I believe, is one of the primary reasons for the confusion in the area of faith today. Catholics have been fed such a large dose of “exceptions” and “possibilities” that they are now unable to judge, or think, objectively.

The objective answer to who is a true Christian is what I wrote in my first post, and what the Pope I quoted said:
Pax et Caritas:

A Christian is someone who believes what our Lord taught (has the true faith), and is a member of the mystical body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. Those who belong to various and scattered sects and denominations are called Christian, but in reality they are not.

Pius XII: “To be Christian one must be Roman [united to the Church of Rome]. One must recognize the oneness of Christ’s Church that is governed by one successor of the Prince of the Apostles who is the Bishop of Rome, Christ’s Vicar on earth” (Allocution to the Irish pilgrims of October 8, 1957).

Does this mean that it is impossible for a person who is not a visible member of the Catholic Church to be united to the soul of the Church? No. There are exceptions, and it is possible for a person who is not a formal member of the Church to be united to the soul of the Church.

This was taught by Pope Pius X in his Catechism:

Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:

21 Q. What is the constitution of the Church of Jesus Christ?

A. The Church of Jesus Christ has been constituted as a true and perfect Society; and in her we can distinguish a soul and a body.

22 Q. In what does the Soul of the Church consist?

A. The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.

23 Q. In what does the Body of the Church consist?

A. The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government.

24 Q. To be saved, is it enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church?

A. No, to be saved it is not enough to be any sort of member of the Catholic Church; it is necessary to be a living member.

see next post

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Continuing with the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:

25 Q. Who are the living members of the Church?

A. The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.

26 Q. And who are the dead members?

A. The dead members of the Church are the faithful in mortal sin.

27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Since we are unable to know the internal thoughts and subjective guilt of each man, we can only judge objectively; that is, by that which appears. It is possible that a person who is not formally united to the visible body of the Church is still a Chrisitan, but this is something that we can never know.

We can say, for example, that Protestantism in all of its forms is a heresy, and that all heretics will go to hell; but we cannot subjectively say that all who attend a Protestant Church are formal heretics.

Just as not all who call themselves Catholics are Catholics, so too, possibly, not all who appear to be Protestants are formal heretics. God knows. We can only make objective judgments based on external actions. And that is what the Church has always done.

That being said, objectively speaking, only a Catholic is a true Christian.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Nita,

Thanks for the reply. I only have one comment.

The Pope’s words (underlined) concern:

1. those who were Catholic and choose to “separate themselves” (one can’t separate oneself from something if he/she was never a part of it to begin with)

A person does not have to have been a member of the Catholic Church at one time to be a formal heretic.

You said that “one can’t separate oneself from something if he/she was never a part of it”, but a baptized non-Catholic may well have been a member (a part) of the mystical body of Christ at one time, even if he wasn’t a visible member of the Catholic Church. Any Protestant who was baptized as a child, for example, was certainly incorporated into the body of Christ.

(Side note: If a formal heretic is baptized, his baptism does not incorporated him into the mystical body of Christ, since he is a heretic.)

Now, if a person is incorporated into the mystical body of Christ via baptism, and then falls into formal heresy, he thereby cuts himself off from that which he was a part of. He may have never been a visible member of the Catholic Church yet still united to the soul of the Church, which his heresy then cut him off from.

You will hear some people today say that only those who leave the Catholic Church are formal heretics, but that is completely false.

 

[Nita]

Pax et Caritas,

You said that “one can’t separate oneself from something if he/she was never a part of it”, but a baptized non-Catholic may well have been a member (a part) of the mystical body of Christ at one time, even if he wasn’t a visible member of the Catholic Church. Any Protestant who was baptized as a child, for example, was certainly incorporated into the body of Christ

.

I said that because in that section which you quoted from, Pope Pius is addressing members of the Church - those “Endowed with Vital Means of Sanctification, That Is, with Sacraments”. (Guess that could include the schismatic Orthodox who also have all the valid “other sacraments” -#18).

Nita

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Definition of a Christian:

Someone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for our sins and rose again. Someone who strives to obey Jesus’ teachings.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Continuing with the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:

25 Q. Who are the living members of the Church?

A. The living members of the Church are the just, and the just alone, that is, those who are actually in the grace of God.

26 Q. And who are the dead members?

A. The dead members of the Church are the faithful in mortal sin.

27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q. How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A. The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation." END

Since we are unable to know the internal thoughts and subjective guilt of each man, we can only judge objectively; that is, by that which appears. It is possible that a person who is not formally united to the visible body of the Church is still a Chrisitan, but this is something that we can never know.

We can say, for example, that Protestantism in all of its forms is a heresy, and that all heretics will go to hell; but we cannot subjectively say that all who attend a Protestant Church are formal heretics.

Just as not all who call themselves Catholics are Catholics, so too, possibly, not all who appear to be Protestants are formal heretics. God knows. We can only make objective judgments based on external actions. And that is what the Church has always done.

That being said, objectively speaking, only a Catholic is a true Christian.