S
Sirach2
Guest
I meant to thank you yesterday, but it slipped my mind as I busied myself elsewhere. You always give us very lovely reflections from these saints. Edith Stein is a very special Carmelite Saint, too.
- Status
S
Sirach2
Guest
What a beautiful treasure to behold this post, Dave. To God be the glory forever - Amen! Thank you very much for opening your heart in this special way.By my count there are at least 3 professed Carmelites posting on this thread (myself included). If anyone here could be faulted for taking a more restrictive view of contemplation it would be us … so much of our vocation being wrapped up in all matters infused.
But irony of ironies it is the Carmelites who are taking perhaps the most expansive view of contemplation presented here (and of course Bookcat). It warms my heart
I owe both Carmelite posters a tremendous debt of gratitude as I’ve learned so much from both over the years on these forums … though I’ve never met either in person … and I don’t acknowledge either publicly as often as I should.
One in particular I consider my greatest teacher … more so than even those in my own community … province … or even the many friars I’ve come into contact with over the years. I need not name her by name for God knows who I’m talking about … and He has a special name reserved just for her.
There is much wisdom here on this thread and throughout this forum … for those that have eyes to see.
Dave
O
Onedayatatime
Guest
I don’t think we can make infused contemplation happen on demand. Certainly, we can prepare ourselves by a fusing our prayer and regular in readiness to receive it, but until it happens we don’t know what it is, and therefore seems like it happens in God’s time and by God’s means.
My sense is that unlike a discussion on say Canon Law, or a Commandment, contemplative prayer is a topic that is outside of our physical world, therefore debates and reasons positions on what is it, how you should feel, even the ability to describe it is fraught with danger. By co-opting contemplation into a modern day psychology discussion, we draw it from the ineffable to the known, and by doing so can mislead ourselves.
There are many more advanced in this topic and experience than me on this thread, but I think the topic ultimately to be the subject for sharing between each individual and their Spiritual Director.
For those wanting to learn more I would recommend Fr. Dubay’s book Fire Within, and the The Three Ages of the Interior Life by Fr. Lagrange.
My sense is that unlike a discussion on say Canon Law, or a Commandment, contemplative prayer is a topic that is outside of our physical world, therefore debates and reasons positions on what is it, how you should feel, even the ability to describe it is fraught with danger. By co-opting contemplation into a modern day psychology discussion, we draw it from the ineffable to the known, and by doing so can mislead ourselves.
There are many more advanced in this topic and experience than me on this thread, but I think the topic ultimately to be the subject for sharing between each individual and their Spiritual Director.
For those wanting to learn more I would recommend Fr. Dubay’s book Fire Within, and the The Three Ages of the Interior Life by Fr. Lagrange.
S
Sirach2
Guest
And what makes you think there might not be danger in discussing other topics like Church documents, councils, moral law, etc.? Since this is an open forum, some will present very unorthodox posts on any of these matters. Would you then halt ALL discussion to protect the readers from error?Contemplation is a difficult topic, one that two Doctors of the Church in Carmel have written books to help the faithful understand truth from error. It is often difficult to assimilate their concepts, but try, we must. St. Teresa lamented in her writings how much harm wrongful information from unlearned priests did to her spiritual life. God raised her up to dispel this misinformation and guide souls with authenticity.
I confidently assure you, some of the folks posting in this thread have been given that gift experientially and are very knowledgable about what they shared. And like St. Teresa, they seek to prevent some of the same harms that she experienced.
Ask the Holy Spirit to help you sort it all out as you compare what it presented here along with these saints’ writings. Truth is truth and the interior nudge of grace will verify this to your understanding.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
The bottom line is, unless you experience contemplative prayer, and I’m using this term broadly here, you’ll have a difficult time understanding St Teresa and St John of the Cross, and a hard time understanding what we say about it.
However, distrust about our explanations tends to be bothersome, and why I’ve decided to try and stay away from such threads, but violated my resolution here.
Jim
However, distrust about our explanations tends to be bothersome, and why I’ve decided to try and stay away from such threads, but violated my resolution here.
Jim
S
Sirach2
Guest
Very true.
D
DBT
Guest
Part of me just wants to let this thread go … but another part thinks there still might be some unfinished business. So here are some thoughts drawn from the catechism and Carmelite spirituality to show that contemplation can be thought of much more broadly than just the infused. The first notation from the catechism might seem curious at first … seeing that it is drawn from the section on vocal prayer:
Vocal Prayer:
So we have introduced a “method” … one that helps us take on a contemplative framework to how we pray. And where can this lead?
Contemplative Prayer:
St. Teresa used another term … mental prayer. And for this she drew very heavily from the teaching of Fransisco de Osuna. So important was he that it can be safely said that no one can truly understand the mind of Teresa without first going through the door of Osuna. They can almost be viewed like a movie sequel … Teresa being Part 2 to Osuna’s Part 1. That is one reason why Teresa was able to spend so much time on contemplation from the infused point of view … because Osuna covered the ground so well on the acquired contemplation side of things. IMO, Teresa takes it for granted that her readers are grounded in these acquired principles. And why so many who take a restrictive view of contemplation (infused only) miss the ball … they never met Osuna.
And what are these basic, acquired principles? To learn to speak with the Lord in our heart … using our own words … and doing so as often as we can … even in the midst of our activities. We are like the young couple out on a date. They use words as a “method” of getting to know each other. Perhaps they gush on and on with the “loving affection of friends” to use an expression of Teresa borrowed from Osuna.
And what are we doing when we pray in such a way? We speak … and we listen. And this opens us up to a critical aspect of contemplation … transformation. When we share in this way we make ourselves receptive and open to the inner voice we begin to hear. And we allow ourselves to be changed. So in a very real sense we can be made into the “new man” … without ever even tasting contemplation in the infused form.
But is there more?
Vocal Prayer:
What we see presented here is an important Carmelite principle: that vocal prayer is joined to the contemplative through the simple act of being aware and attentive to the one to whom we speak. How many times have I mindlessly rattled off words written on some prayer card? How many times have I joined our morning parish rosary group like a driver of an Indy formula one race car fighting for the inside lane at the Brickyard while moving a cool 220mph? Is this prayer? Well I can’t speak for others since I do not know their mind and hearts … but I’m pretty darned sure St. Teresa would hold a dim view of what I’m doing at such times. At the bare minimum, I’m surely not adopting a very contemplative attitude.
So we have introduced a “method” … one that helps us take on a contemplative framework to how we pray. And where can this lead?
Contemplative Prayer:
Now we have entered the realm of contemplation in the acquired sense. Paying attention is the first step in building a friendship and relationship with Christ … the “heart” of what contemplation is about. Perhaps this is why so many use the term Prayer of the Heart to describe this way of prayer.
St. Teresa used another term … mental prayer. And for this she drew very heavily from the teaching of Fransisco de Osuna. So important was he that it can be safely said that no one can truly understand the mind of Teresa without first going through the door of Osuna. They can almost be viewed like a movie sequel … Teresa being Part 2 to Osuna’s Part 1. That is one reason why Teresa was able to spend so much time on contemplation from the infused point of view … because Osuna covered the ground so well on the acquired contemplation side of things. IMO, Teresa takes it for granted that her readers are grounded in these acquired principles. And why so many who take a restrictive view of contemplation (infused only) miss the ball … they never met Osuna.
And what are these basic, acquired principles? To learn to speak with the Lord in our heart … using our own words … and doing so as often as we can … even in the midst of our activities. We are like the young couple out on a date. They use words as a “method” of getting to know each other. Perhaps they gush on and on with the “loving affection of friends” to use an expression of Teresa borrowed from Osuna.
And what are we doing when we pray in such a way? We speak … and we listen. And this opens us up to a critical aspect of contemplation … transformation. When we share in this way we make ourselves receptive and open to the inner voice we begin to hear. And we allow ourselves to be changed. So in a very real sense we can be made into the “new man” … without ever even tasting contemplation in the infused form.
But is there more?
D
DBT
Guest
… continued:
Perhaps there comes a time when the use of words is no longer as useful in our relationship with Christ as before. Perhaps the young couple is now an old married couple of 50 years. No longer need they gush on and on (although they certainly do from time to time). They know each other fully and completely … and can anticipate each other’s needs intuitively. Doing becomes something more like being. And so theologians use terms like the Prayer of Simplicity to describe the manner of this kind of acquired contemplation. Others might see the “simple gaze” of Brother Lawrence as another expression … or the “naked intent” of The Cloud of Unknowing.
Now dare I be provocative for the sake of being provocative? Can we say that the young couple is aware and conscious of each other? How about the old couple? If we can say yes to that can we take it one step further to say the awareness of the old couple is “different” than that of the young? Perhaps on a deeper level or plane? If we can accept that then maybe we’re one step closer to understanding what St. Teresa means by our soul being and Interior Castle containing many mansions … with the indwelling Trinity living in the deepest, most inner room.
And all the while we are contemplating in the acquired sense in this “method” of simplicity. Can there yet be more? Well of course there is … and that’s where we leave Osuna’s Part 1 for Teresa’s Part 2.
For souls who use methods like these to habitually place themselves in the presence of God … while also making every good effort to avoid sin, mortify themselves, practice virtue and live the precepts of the faith to the fullest … well these souls have done all they can to dispose themselves for the possibility of infused contemplative graces.
They live their lives like the wise virgins of the Gospel whose lamps are always lit … in a perpetual state of watching and waiting. These are the ones who can live like Mary even if the circumstances of their life require them to be Martha’s. They can hear the subtle call of the Master’s voice in infused contemplation should He decide to call. A voice so soft and silent that it will simply go unheard in the din of a cluttered mind that will not allow itself frequent moments of silence and simplicity … thinking it better to always make itself “busy about many things.”
And the moral to this story: Even if the Master should never call on these devout, loving souls in an infused way … they are still contemplatives.
Just as the catechism shows.
Dave
Contemplation said:
Perhaps there comes a time when the use of words is no longer as useful in our relationship with Christ as before. Perhaps the young couple is now an old married couple of 50 years. No longer need they gush on and on (although they certainly do from time to time). They know each other fully and completely … and can anticipate each other’s needs intuitively. Doing becomes something more like being. And so theologians use terms like the Prayer of Simplicity to describe the manner of this kind of acquired contemplation. Others might see the “simple gaze” of Brother Lawrence as another expression … or the “naked intent” of The Cloud of Unknowing.
Now dare I be provocative for the sake of being provocative? Can we say that the young couple is aware and conscious of each other? How about the old couple? If we can say yes to that can we take it one step further to say the awareness of the old couple is “different” than that of the young? Perhaps on a deeper level or plane? If we can accept that then maybe we’re one step closer to understanding what St. Teresa means by our soul being and Interior Castle containing many mansions … with the indwelling Trinity living in the deepest, most inner room.
And all the while we are contemplating in the acquired sense in this “method” of simplicity. Can there yet be more? Well of course there is … and that’s where we leave Osuna’s Part 1 for Teresa’s Part 2.
For souls who use methods like these to habitually place themselves in the presence of God … while also making every good effort to avoid sin, mortify themselves, practice virtue and live the precepts of the faith to the fullest … well these souls have done all they can to dispose themselves for the possibility of infused contemplative graces.
They live their lives like the wise virgins of the Gospel whose lamps are always lit … in a perpetual state of watching and waiting. These are the ones who can live like Mary even if the circumstances of their life require them to be Martha’s. They can hear the subtle call of the Master’s voice in infused contemplation should He decide to call. A voice so soft and silent that it will simply go unheard in the din of a cluttered mind that will not allow itself frequent moments of silence and simplicity … thinking it better to always make itself “busy about many things.”
And the moral to this story: Even if the Master should never call on these devout, loving souls in an infused way … they are still contemplatives.
Just as the catechism shows.
Dave
E
englishredrose
Guest
This is what I do as my prayer with guidence from my priest and although Anglican and Brother Lawrence is very good. The opening post as you say is well worded if mean that kind of contemplation but very confusing if talking about contemplation from the point of view of what Brother Lawrence talks about. For me it so simple and yet I need convincing I am praying in that it is so simple and that if we are too aware we are almost not praying because we are aware of praying rather than aware of the Presenc of God in how we manage to be with God. I am only one year into this journey and it is far better for me as words/intercessionary prayer didn’t work for me even after a 25 year church attendence. Brother Lawrence’s approach of the Practice of the Presence of God takes away all pressure and simply beautiful since I find nature helps me there. We have our own ways…
S
simple_soul
Guest
Oh Dave, I beleive I just had a lightbulb moment after reading these last few posts of yours and now I beleive I am understanding better what is different in what you and a few others are saying regarding what others are syiing. From what you seem to be clarifying is that some people beleive you can not be a contemplative unless you are receiving infusions you are saying that one can be a contemplative with or with out infusions. Am I understanding this correctly? If I am threads like these finally make more sense to me now and I agree with what you are saying. It makes more sense in my prayer life anyway. Thanks for taking the time to repost this the way you did. I know you have said parts of it before but putting it this way just made that lightbulb go off.… continued:
Perhaps there comes a time when the use of words is no longer as useful in our relationship with Christ as before. Perhaps the young couple is now an old married couple of 50 years. No longer need they gush on and on (although they certainly do from time to time). They know each other fully and completely … and can anticipate each other’s needs intuitively. Doing becomes something more like being. And so theologians use terms like the Prayer of Simplicity to describe the manner of this kind of acquired contemplation. Others might see the “simple gaze” of Brother Lawrence as another expression … or the “naked intent” of The Cloud of Unknowing.
Now dare I be provocative for the sake of being provocative? Can we say that the young couple is aware and conscious of each other? How about the old couple? If we can say yes to that can we take it one step further to say the awareness of the old couple is “different” than that of the young? Perhaps on a deeper level or plane? If we can accept that then maybe we’re one step closer to understanding what St. Teresa means by our soul being and Interior Castle containing many mansions … with the indwelling Trinity living in the deepest, most inner room.
And all the while we are contemplating in the acquired sense in this “method” of simplicity. Can there yet be more? Well of course there is … and that’s where we leave Osuna’s Part 1 for Teresa’s Part 2.
For souls who use methods like these to habitually place themselves in the presence of God … while also making every good effort to avoid sin, mortify themselves, practice virtue and live the precepts of the faith to the fullest … well these souls have done all they can to dispose themselves for the possibility of infused contemplative graces.
They live their lives like the wise virgins of the Gospel whose lamps are always lit … in a perpetual state of watching and waiting. These are the ones who can live like Mary even if the circumstances of their life require them to be Martha’s. They can hear the subtle call of the Master’s voice in infused contemplation should He decide to call. A voice so soft and silent that it will simply go unheard in the din of a cluttered mind that will not allow itself frequent moments of silence and simplicity … thinking it better to always make itself “busy about many things.”
And the moral to this story: Even if the Master should never call on these devout, loving souls in an infused way … they are still contemplatives.
Just as the catechism shows.
Dave
God Bless you and yours
D
DBT
Guest
S
Sirach2
Guest
DBT said:
I’m so glad you discerned this, Dave, and I have also felt that the Holy Spirit has much more to bring to us. Thanks for coming back and posting this very good information. I always follow threads of this nature, but I am just a listener for now – no thoughts coming today, just enjoying yours!
I
InLight247
Guest
Dave, it is very commendable that you spent so much time patiently explain acquired contemplation again and again. Contemplative prayer is actually simple but somehow could be made complicated. Sometimes it’s hard to explain things to people who have no actual experiences. Yet your thorough explanation along with the quotes from Catechism made it so clear. It could not be clearer. Your posts should help people who have not tried contemplative prayer as well as those who have been practicing it.
Just recently, I noticed the way my son talked to his girl friend on the phone. It immediately reminds me of the topic we are discussing. His facial expression appeared that he was totally carried away and could not hear or feel things around him. It’ a picture of losing himself in the love conversation, just like we lose ourselves in the Lord in our prayers.
Yes, for devout people who are in a habit of acquired contemplation, even if the Master never endow them with an infused way … they are still contemplatives.
Just recently, I noticed the way my son talked to his girl friend on the phone. It immediately reminds me of the topic we are discussing. His facial expression appeared that he was totally carried away and could not hear or feel things around him. It’ a picture of losing himself in the love conversation, just like we lose ourselves in the Lord in our prayers.
Yes, for devout people who are in a habit of acquired contemplation, even if the Master never endow them with an infused way … they are still contemplatives.
D
DBT
Guest
Well, one more thought and I’ll let it go … promise.
Several years ago our Provincial Council made a change to the formation program that might strike some as curious. They made a decision to drop The Dark Night (perhaps the most famous Carmelite work) so that more time can be devoted to Church encyclicals and deeper delving into works like The Ascent of Mount Carmel. As a formation director mine is not to question why; rather to implement. But I will tell you I took no small amount of grief over this. After all, many people come to Carmel specifically to immerse themselves more fully into deep works like The Dark Night.
The reasoning was very straightforward and hopefully easy to understand in the context of this thread … confused conversations. As Carmelites we believe in the universal call to contemplation and, since The Ascent can be considered Part One to The Dark Night, it treats of contemplation in the way most will experience it (yes even Carmelites) … in the active nights. This is the realm in which we speak of acquired contemplation. Not all will experience the call to the passive nights in which contemplation is addressed from the point of view of the infused in Dark Night. And not all communities have individuals capable of teaching and explaining such matters anyway. So the reason for the decision.
And to carry the thought further …
It just came to me this morning on vacation while jogging the rolling hills of the Ozark Mountains of southern Missouri … something I’ve wondered about for a long time. Why does St. John of the Cross present his famous 3-signs to discerning the call to contemplation two times: once in The Ascent and once in Dark Night? And why does he use essentially the same words … but with different nuance (one more active, the other more passive)?
And it occurred to me that this is an explicit endorsement of contemplation from both the acquired and infused point of view. For one could just as easily use these signs to confirm the call to let go the use of the intellect to pray in the manner of the Prayer of Simplicity (acquired) … as well as to discern the Master’s call to fleeting moments of prayer where we let go of even that simplicity in order to remain passive in His presence (infused).
The application of the 3-signs is at once very much the same in both cases (the loving attentiveness to God) … yet at the same time very different indeed (different “levels” to this awareness). But explaining that is well beyond my abilities.
Ok, done now.
Dave
Several years ago our Provincial Council made a change to the formation program that might strike some as curious. They made a decision to drop The Dark Night (perhaps the most famous Carmelite work) so that more time can be devoted to Church encyclicals and deeper delving into works like The Ascent of Mount Carmel. As a formation director mine is not to question why; rather to implement. But I will tell you I took no small amount of grief over this. After all, many people come to Carmel specifically to immerse themselves more fully into deep works like The Dark Night.
The reasoning was very straightforward and hopefully easy to understand in the context of this thread … confused conversations. As Carmelites we believe in the universal call to contemplation and, since The Ascent can be considered Part One to The Dark Night, it treats of contemplation in the way most will experience it (yes even Carmelites) … in the active nights. This is the realm in which we speak of acquired contemplation. Not all will experience the call to the passive nights in which contemplation is addressed from the point of view of the infused in Dark Night. And not all communities have individuals capable of teaching and explaining such matters anyway. So the reason for the decision.
And to carry the thought further …
It just came to me this morning on vacation while jogging the rolling hills of the Ozark Mountains of southern Missouri … something I’ve wondered about for a long time. Why does St. John of the Cross present his famous 3-signs to discerning the call to contemplation two times: once in The Ascent and once in Dark Night? And why does he use essentially the same words … but with different nuance (one more active, the other more passive)?
And it occurred to me that this is an explicit endorsement of contemplation from both the acquired and infused point of view. For one could just as easily use these signs to confirm the call to let go the use of the intellect to pray in the manner of the Prayer of Simplicity (acquired) … as well as to discern the Master’s call to fleeting moments of prayer where we let go of even that simplicity in order to remain passive in His presence (infused).
The application of the 3-signs is at once very much the same in both cases (the loving attentiveness to God) … yet at the same time very different indeed (different “levels” to this awareness). But explaining that is well beyond my abilities.
Ok, done now.
Dave
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Dave, we didn’t into the Dark night during formation of novices. The Dark Night was for professed members and generally, we left it up for the Spiritual Adviser to cover in his talks.
Jim
Jim
B
Bookcat
Guest
(drive by post…have been away from the thread)
Interesting note:
“24. There are certain mystical graces, conferred on the founders of ecclesial institutes to benefit their foundation, and on other saints, too, which characterize their personal experience of prayer and which cannot, as such, be the object of imitation and aspiration for other members of the faithful, even those who belong to the same institutes and those who seek an ever more perfect way of prayer.28* There can be different levels and different ways of sharing in a founder’s experience of prayer, without everything having to be exactly the same. Besides, the prayer experience that is given a privileged position in all genuinely ecclesial institutes, ancient and modern, is always in the last analysis something personal. And it is to the individual person that God gives his graces for prayer.”
28*. No one who prays, unless he receives a special grace, covets an overall vision of the revelations of God, such as St. Gregory recognized in St. Benedict. or that mystical impulse with which St. Francis of Assisi would contemplate God in all his creatures, or an equally global vision, such as that given to St. Ignatius at the River Cardoner and of which he said that for him it could have taken the place of Sacred Scripture. The “dark night” described by St. John of the Cross is part of his personal charism of prayer. Not every member of his order needs to experience it in the same way so as to reach that perfection of prayer to which God has called him.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html
And on a different note – if you will forgive me for repeating-- I want to note that there are various different “Schools” and approaches within the Church (orthodox ones of course) as noted in: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10850610&postcount=4
Interesting note:
“24. There are certain mystical graces, conferred on the founders of ecclesial institutes to benefit their foundation, and on other saints, too, which characterize their personal experience of prayer and which cannot, as such, be the object of imitation and aspiration for other members of the faithful, even those who belong to the same institutes and those who seek an ever more perfect way of prayer.28* There can be different levels and different ways of sharing in a founder’s experience of prayer, without everything having to be exactly the same. Besides, the prayer experience that is given a privileged position in all genuinely ecclesial institutes, ancient and modern, is always in the last analysis something personal. And it is to the individual person that God gives his graces for prayer.”
28*. No one who prays, unless he receives a special grace, covets an overall vision of the revelations of God, such as St. Gregory recognized in St. Benedict. or that mystical impulse with which St. Francis of Assisi would contemplate God in all his creatures, or an equally global vision, such as that given to St. Ignatius at the River Cardoner and of which he said that for him it could have taken the place of Sacred Scripture. The “dark night” described by St. John of the Cross is part of his personal charism of prayer. Not every member of his order needs to experience it in the same way so as to reach that perfection of prayer to which God has called him.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html
And on a different note – if you will forgive me for repeating-- I want to note that there are various different “Schools” and approaches within the Church (orthodox ones of course) as noted in: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10850610&postcount=4
S
Sirach2
Guest
Bookca:
I’m not understanding your intent in posting this, Bookcat. It just seems to muddy the waters. The vatican article was posted by Card. Ratzinger, but despite his worthy comments, I would greatly prefer to listen to the saints whom God raised up specifically to instruct the faithful in regard to mystical theology. They are very aptly appointed Doctors of the Church for the vast knowledge of souls that they were given concerning their prayer life. Remember also that both were founders of an Order and had cause to instruct those in their charge.
S
simple_soul
Guest
Thank you again Dave for this post. Funny thing is I beleive I am at an (name removed by moderator)ass in understanding my spiritual life because of these seemingly similarities.Well, one more thought and I’ll let it go … promise.
Several years ago our Provincial Council made a change to the formation program that might strike some as curious. They made a decision to drop The Dark Night (perhaps the most famous Carmelite work) so that more time can be devoted to Church encyclicals and deeper delving into works like The Ascent of Mount Carmel. As a formation director mine is not to question why; rather to implement. But I will tell you I took no small amount of grief over this. After all, many people come to Carmel specifically to immerse themselves more fully into deep works like The Dark Night.
The reasoning was very straightforward and hopefully easy to understand in the context of this thread … confused conversations. As Carmelites we believe in the universal call to contemplation and, since The Ascent can be considered Part One to The Dark Night, it treats of contemplation in the way most will experience it (yes even Carmelites) … in the active nights. This is the realm in which we speak of acquired contemplation. Not all will experience the call to the passive nights in which contemplation is addressed from the point of view of the infused in Dark Night. And not all communities have individuals capable of teaching and explaining such matters anyway. So the reason for the decision.
And to carry the thought further …
It just came to me this morning on vacation while jogging the rolling hills of the Ozark Mountains of southern Missouri … something I’ve wondered about for a long time. Why does St. John of the Cross present his famous 3-signs to discerning the call to contemplation two times: once in The Ascent and once in Dark Night? And why does he use essentially the same words … but with different nuance (one more active, the other more passive)?
And it occurred to me that this is an explicit endorsement of contemplation from both the acquired and infused point of view. For one could just as easily use these signs to confirm the call to let go the use of the intellect to pray in the manner of the Prayer of Simplicity (acquired) … as well as to discern the Master’s call to fleeting moments of prayer where we let go of even that simplicity in order to remain passive in His presence (infused).
The application of the 3-signs is at once very much the same in both cases (the loving attentiveness to God) … yet at the same time very different indeed (different “levels” to this awareness). But explaining that is well beyond my abilities.
Ok, done now.
Dave
If anyone can offer some insight in how to tell the two apart or explain the differences it would be greatly appreciated if you could help me understand them.
H
hazcompat
Guest
God is looking after us and yet we are full of anxiety! We trust ourselves to a doctor because we suppose he knows his business. He orders an operation which involves cutting away part of our body and we accept it. We are grateful to him and pay him a large fee because we judge he would not act as he does unless the remedy were necessary, and we must rely on his skill. Yet we are unwilling to treat God in the same way! It looks as if we do not trust His wisdom and are afraid He cannot do His job properly. We allow ourselves to be operated on by a man who may easily make a mistake – a mistake which may cost us our life – and protest when God sets to work on us.
If we could see all He sees we would unhesitatingly wish all He wishes. We would beg Him on bended knees for those afflictions we now ask Him to spare us. To all of us He addresses the words spoken to the Sons of Zebeedee: You know not what you ask – O blind of heart, your ignorance saddens me. Let me manage your affairs and look after your interests. I know what you need better than you do yourselves.
TRUSTFUL SURRENDER TO DIVINE PROVIDENCE
by St. Claude de la Colombiere
Peace
If we could see all He sees we would unhesitatingly wish all He wishes. We would beg Him on bended knees for those afflictions we now ask Him to spare us. To all of us He addresses the words spoken to the Sons of Zebeedee: You know not what you ask – O blind of heart, your ignorance saddens me. Let me manage your affairs and look after your interests. I know what you need better than you do yourselves.
TRUSTFUL SURRENDER TO DIVINE PROVIDENCE
by St. Claude de la Colombiere
Peace
B
Bookcat
Guest
No it adds an interesting aspect.
It is to be noted that there is some misunderstanding of the nature of the quote -it is not a vatican article posted by Cardinal Ratzinger…
It is a document is from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (and yes Cardinal Ratzinger was the head of the said Congregation and signed it and was certainly involved in it)
It was an interesting section and footnote that seemed interesting to post.
There is no question that Doctors of the Church are Doctors of the Church. All of them.
As I noted it was a “drive by post” of an interesting section…
(And I again wished to note that there are various “schools” and approaches in the Church and many uses of the term contemplation within the Church.)
- Status