Definition of Contemplation: What it is not and what it is

[englishredrose]

hmmn
people make out it is hard all the time but the only hard thing about contemplative prayer is in fact that it is so easy. We like to make things hard for ourselves. Even when I am saying to my priest - where is God, when I am all angry. I know I am with God just being with him. It requires nothing technical, the only skill is our heart. Yeh if you wanna make out it the hardest of all fine, but in reality it isn’t. It the easiest because we do not need words. We are simply being with God and what is more easy than that. That is the part that is hard for people as we like to make things hard. So I urge people not to state it is hard, just because some authors may have written it is hard without much clarity. The only hard thing as I will keep saying is that it is so easy. Even when am so angry I know God is there and that is what important and I owe so much to the current priest who taught me how to just simply be with God because it don’t matter whether am angry, sad, happy and at peace I am still with God even if I write asking, Where is He? That is my way of frustration but I do know He is here because the time when I really felt Him gone I felt really empty and rang up. Contemplative Prayer - Just being with God is very very easy. We can build it up to be hard but in essence the only hard about it is that it is easy and requires nothing but our hearts. Thank you as am having couple of poor days and that has helped me see God is here

 

[hazcompat]

hmmn
people make out it is hard all the time but the only hard thing about contemplative prayer is in fact that it is so easy. We like to make things hard for ourselves. Even when I am saying to my priest - where is God, when I am all angry. I know I am with God just being with him. It requires nothing technical, the only skill is our heart. Yeh if you wanna make out it the hardest of all fine, but in reality it isn’t. It the easiest because we do not need words. We are simply being with God and what is more easy than that. That is the part that is hard for people as we like to make things hard. So I urge people not to state it is hard, just because some authors may have written it is hard without much clarity. The only hard thing as I will keep saying is that it is so easy. Even when am so angry I know God is there and that is what important and I owe so much to the current priest who taught me how to just simply be with God because it don’t matter whether am angry, sad, happy and at peace I am still with God even if I write asking, Where is He? That is my way of frustration but I do know He is here because the time when I really felt Him gone I felt really empty and rang up. Contemplative Prayer - Just being with God is very very easy. We can build it up to be hard but in essence the only hard about it is that it is easy and requires nothing but our hearts. Thank you as am having couple of poor days and that has helped me see God is here

It is effortless and as natural (supernatural) as breathing! A child is equipped from conception.

Peace

Peace

 

[DBT]

The context of the earlier posts regarding “difficulty” have to do with the effects of contemplative prayer not contemplative prayer itself.

When one begins to pray contemplatively they open themselves up to inner transformation. Self knowledge is given and we are shown the many ways large and small in which we fail to live up to what Christ shows us. So our lives become a 24/7 task of conforming ourselves into His image until the “new man” emerges. Virtue and self-denial is what it is all about. This is what was referred to as “difficult.” Hence Church teaching on passive trials and Dark Nights that naturally flow from true contemplative prayer.

Growth in virtue and greater conformity to Christ is the only real test to determine if one’s contemplative prayer is authentic or not. And attempts at contemplative prayer without simultaneously embracing the ascetic side to things is what often separates the true and false mystic. So if all in our life is truly “ease” then, as the Doctors show, we might want to re-examine what we’re doing and start over at the beginning. Because we might just be contemplating ourselves.

Prayer and effects … two different things.

Dave

 

[SecretaryMonday]

The context of the earlier posts regarding “difficulty” have to do with the effects of contemplative prayer not contemplative prayer itself.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[hazcompat]

Who can climb the Lord’s mountain, or stand in his holy place.

Peace

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Who can climb the Lord’s mountain, or stand in his holy place.

Peace

But finish the complete text;

Who may go up the mountain of the LORD?c

Who can stand in his holy place?

The clean of hand and pure of heart,

who has not given his soul to useless things,

what is vain.

He will receive blessings from the LORD,

and justice from his saving God.

Such is the generation that seeks him,

that seeks the face of the God of Jacob.” Psalm 24:3-6

When we turn to God in prayer, we seek His face and develop a transforming relationship with Him. Through His grace he purifies us, to make us worthy to stand in his presence.

Centered In Christ
Jim

 

[SecretaryMonday]

I have been trying to keep up with the thread, and I’m sorry to ask an off-topic question; I come from a Christian background where there was distrust of meditation or prayer “experiences,” and it is awkward to try to pray as a Catholic. I’m not sure who I should approach with questions about prayer, especially about a puzzling event; would anyone with experience in contemplation be willing to speak with me via PM, or would it be better for me to make an appointment with a spiritual director? Thanks!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I have been trying to keep up with the thread, and I’m sorry to ask an off-topic question; I come from a Christian background where there was distrust of meditation or prayer “experiences,” and it is awkward to try to pray as a Catholic. I’m not sure who I should approach with questions about prayer, especially about a puzzling event; would anyone with experience in contemplation be willing to speak with me via PM, or would it be better for me to make an appointment with a spiritual director? Thanks!

Make and appointment with a spiritual director would be the best option.

Meanwhile, you can PM me.

Jim

 

[SecretaryMonday]

Make and appointment with a spiritual director would be the best option.

Meanwhile, you can PM me.

Jim

Thank you!

 

[zeno_1]

Who can climb the Lord’s mountain, or stand in his holy place.

Peace

I find your question interesting. I’m wondering if your not asking who can have the Beatific Vision, but perhaps I’m incorrect.

Quickly from my simple outlook some climb by seeking the source that is our spiritual food-- the sacrements and are infused by it. Go beyond… e.g. to where the cross becomes a tree and the eurcharist becomes the fruit of that tree and an intimate moment of transendance and soon the mountain ain’t so high…

Thing about going to the mountain is that from there the shawl of God flows down to the valleys to where y’all are meant to spend most of our time.

So who can go? Most any chrisitan in my view that is willing to stop, look and listen.

And for some it is a more natural thing to do. Like natural athletic individuals; some have great stamina from childhood to just dive in thought, in prayer and stare at the air…

Also, if anyone here is from former Nova Nada in Nova Scotia, it is not quite the same here without you.
God Bless.

 

[hazcompat]

Psalm 55:7 I say, “If only I had wings like a dove that I might fly away and find rest…

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

Also raised above temporality, it is a true beginning of eternal life in us.
(emphasis mine)It is not a mere acceptance of the message of faith that has been heard, nor a mere turning of oneself to God, who is known only from hearsay, rather it is an interior being touched and an experience of God that has the power to detach the soul from all created things, and to raise her, simultaneously plunging her into a love that does not know its object.

Stein, Edith (2011-03-17). The Science of the Cross (The Collected Works of Edith Stein Vol. 6) (Kindle Locations 2227-2230). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.

Peace

 

[franklinstower]

The context of the earlier posts regarding “difficulty” have to do with the effects of contemplative prayer not contemplative prayer itself.

When one begins to pray contemplatively they open themselves up to inner transformation. Self knowledge is given and we are shown the many ways large and small in which we fail to live up to what Christ shows us. So our lives become a 24/7 task of conforming ourselves into His image until the “new man” emerges. Virtue and self-denial is what it is all about. This is what was referred to as “difficult.” Hence Church teaching on passive trials and Dark Nights that naturally flow from true contemplative prayer.

Growth in virtue and greater conformity to Christ is the only real test to determine if one’s contemplative prayer is authentic or not. And attempts at contemplative prayer without simultaneously embracing the ascetic side to things is what often separates the true and false mystic. So if all in our life is truly “ease” then, as the Doctors show, we might want to re-examine what we’re doing and start over at the beginning. Because we might just be contemplating ourselves.

Prayer and effects … two different things.

Dave

I have to concur with this in the context of the above post that says it is “easy”. I also find the practice of contemplative prayer to be easy but the effects are not always easy. I was raised in the new age movement and for the first ten years of my practice I had a belief system that suffering was never necessary for spiritual growth, that you only needed to grow through love and joy. And I did grow through that and I even had periodic experiences of what I would now call purification but at that time I thought I had fallen every time they happened.

About ten years into the path all of the Love and Joy and bliss that God had regularly been shining on me went away completely–overnight!! For a single year I did not feel the presence of God in any way and whatever intensity of bliss and love I had felt went in just the opposite direction and I was aware of a great darkness in me and also a heaviness coming from God, a deep seriousness. It was here that I met a Trappist monk who understood what was happening and helped guide me through it.

My point is that I did not create the difficulty though my beliefs, this difficult period came upon me unbidden and the results of it have been wonderful.

I would point out however that in the Orthodox church there is a book called "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, I would count this book as the single most important book I have ever read not counting the Bible of course. In this book Eastern Spirituality is contrasted with Catholic mysticism and there are some interesting differences. The author states that since the focus of these two great churches are different from one another they tend to produce a very different mysticism also. The eastern Church has only had one person who authentically went through a dark night of the soul, ***only one person went through the dark night of the soul on the way into union.

---

He said it was because the Eastern Church and its theology place a greater emphasis on the risen and triumphant Christ than does Catholicism which tends to put greater focus on the value of suffering and the suffering of Jesus. Because of this emphasis Orthodox tend not to produce many stigmatas, dark nights of the soul etc, and in place of these they have regular instances of transfiguration and miracles of healing. This insight changed my life because it demonstrated what I had already begun to suspect which is that we are coloring our experience with God all the time even though we don’t mean to be-- and we better be careful how we color it. I am interested in being very careful about not coloring it because I want to know what God would do in me if His work was not laden with beliefs and agendas. This is a very important piece of the path for me.

It has been a very delicate matter to learn how to read the accounts of the great mystics and then quickly forget what they said and the basic mood they say it in because that is the fruit of their experience and while I will lay at their feet for a time-- I must go lay at the masters feet permanently. The words of Jesus Christ are all much more powerful and transformative and full than the words of human beings. The words of humans must be dissolved into the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit, and then be given back to us re-energized and recapitulated through Christ for us and our way with him.

 

[hazcompat]

If ecstasy, visions, and consolations are “unessential byproducts” of mystical union why aren’t the so called difficulties?

Peace

 

[franklinstower]

If ecstasy, visions, and consolations are “unessential byproducts” of mystical union why aren’t the so called difficulties?

Peace

Would you elaborate on the question and maybe offer some insight into your perspective, I am very interested. I would love to hear how you would categorize them and why?

 

[nuntym]

• JMJ +
  Franklinstower, thank you for mentioning that book, I am very intrigued of it and I am considering to buy it.

I went to the Amazon website of the book and read the reviews there, and one of them intrigued me very much:

Of most importance to the Western mystical tradition is the concept of the via negativa, that God is best understood and contemplated in terms of what God is not, the negative attributes of God. What has been called the apophatic or negative theology of the Greeks has become integral to the Latin canon and is in fact fundamental to the mystical theology expounded in the writings of the master himself, St. John of the Cross. His description of the ascetical path of the soul toward God as a “dark night”–a permutation of the via negativa–has become one of the treasures of Western spiritual heritage.

I am very much aware of the via negativa route of contemplation, which I think is what most think of nowadays when they hear the term “contemplation.” And it is this form of contemplation that I could not practice, even the acquired form. I’ve tried it before, but it does not “click” to me, to the point that I became very suspicious of modern forms of acquired contemplation. If you want, search CAF of my spats with DBT, JimR-OCDS, and Sirach1, among others, on this topic.

Looking back from now, I hazard to guess that this is because I have been called to Marian spirituality, which focuses on the Incarnate Mystery of Jesus. This is a literally down-to-earth spirituality and that is almost diametrically opposite of via negativa, because it tries to find and understand God through His interaction with creation, most especially in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Thus, an incarnate spirituality (if there is such a term) sees God everywhere, but first by looking at and loving the mysteries of the life of Christ. St. Francis de Sales wrote about this in An Introduction to the Spiritual Life:

[T]hose who love God cannot cease thinking of Him, living for Him, longing after Him, speaking of Him, and fain would they grave the Holy Name of Jesus in the hearts of every living creature they behold.

And to such an outpour of love all creation bids us–nothing that He has made but is filled with the praise of God, and, as says S. Augustine, everything in the world speaks silently but clearly to the lovers of God of their love, exciting them to holy desires, whence gush forth aspirations and loving cries to God.

St. Gregory Nazianzen tells his flock, how, walking along the seashore, he watched the waves as they washed up shells and sea weeds, and all manner of small substances, which seemed, as it were, rejected by the sea, until a return wave would often wash part thereof back again; while the rocks remained firm and immoveable, let the waves beat against them never so fiercely. And then the Saint went on to reflect that feeble hearts let themselves be carried hither and thither by the varying waves of sorrow or consolation, as the case might be, like the shells upon the seashore, while those of a nobler mould abide firm and immoveable amid every storm;–whence he breaks out into David’s cry, “Lord, save me, for the waters are gone over my soul; deliver me from the great deep, all Thy waves and storms are gone over me;” for he was himself then in trouble by reason of the ungodly usurpation of his See by Maximus.

Numerous other examples of such are given in the source of the above quote: catholictreasury.info/books/devout_life/dev36.php

Now is this contemplation? Yes, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2715 Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.

Thus many saints, theologians, and even popes have maintained that the Rosary, with its meditations on the different events of Jesus and Mary’s life, is an eminently contemplative prayer.

Now what I am intrigued of is, if I am not mistaken, another spirituality that is not based on apophatic theology, which is the Oriental tradition. I am very intrigued indeed

 

[hazcompat]

Would you elaborate on the question and maybe offer some insight into your perspective, I am very interested. I would love to hear how you would categorize them and why?

Have you been following the thread from the beginning? Prayer begins in heaven. God is perfect prayer. The differences or “types of prayer” reflect the capacity of the one who prays. (As an aside this has implications on how we perceive the praying of our enemy).

The thread has delineated between “infused” and “acquired” contemplative prayer. Lately we are chatting about the soul, and whether striving, depriving, or some level of effort/difficulty is essential. My point is neither sweetness or repugnance are of the essence of the Union.

We do not have to turn to God, If it is His Will, He Will put a hook in our nose and bring us back from the edge of the abyss. Even the very wicked can experience God. Think of Saul on the road to Damascus. As to categorizing? I think the Union comes first. The sweet and difficult are realities of the return journey. It is the only way one could articulate what is ultimately “unutterable”.

Peace

 

[nuntym]

• JMJ +

Have you been following the thread from the beginning? Prayer begins in heaven. God is perfect prayer. The differences or “types of prayer” reflect the capacity of the one who prays. (As an aside this has implications on how we perceive the praying of our enemy).

The thread has delineated between “infused” and “acquired” contemplative prayer. Lately we are chatting about the soul, and whether striving, depriving, or some level of effort/difficulty is essential. My point is neither sweetness or repugnance are of the essence of the Union.

We do not have to turn to God, If it is His Will, He Will put a hook in our nose and bring us back from the edge of the abyss. Even the very wicked can experience God. Think of Saul on the road to Damascus. As to categorizing? I think the Union comes first. The sweet and difficult are realities of the return journey. It is the only way one could articulate what is ultimately “unutterable”.

Peace

 

[DBT]

Affirmative and negative approaches to God are not in conflict with each other or mutually opposed; rather, they are mutually supportive. One is typically brought to the negative way through the affirmative. For this, one need only look to St. John of the Cross - the master of the via negativa - who wrote some of the most affirmative language we might find.

The distinction is that when contemplation proceeds to it’s infused forms … then, by definition, affirmative ways yield to the negative. In this type of contemplation, God is not grasped by our concepts of Him … He is tasted by an experiential encounter which transcends all “images, forms or ideas” of Him.

Using this language, “images, forms and ideas” are the stuff of the affirmative way. Necessary and worthy in their own right.

To illustrate further, using language from the catechism:

The “loving conversation between friends” can be a type of contemplation of the affirmative way. The “I look at Him and He looks at me,” on the other hand, is a type of contemplation that tends toward the negative. And both examples are contemplation in the acquired form … the affirmative leading to the quasi-negative … which then proceeds to the true negative of infused contemplation, God willing.

There is a “flow” to all this that is very difficult to put into words.

Dave

 

[hazcompat]

It goes without saying there is no other way save Jesus Christ!

Peace